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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    I mean I think they were using the numbers taken from the armory that includes everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Yeah but that's a really inconvenient fact for some people
    Ignoring what fact?

    As of now wowranks.io got:

    Total: 6,992,964 characters. Which is a third of the whole base.

    Besides all that, if you check the covenant:
    Kyrian got 1.9mill. Paladins are 600k of that. Monks 300k.

    Necrolord: 1.1mill
    Necrolords got 327k, Shamans 300k, priests and warlocks are 220k together. Warlocks and to some extent Shadow Priests as an example fits themeattically.

    Night Fae. 2.5mill. Half of that are druids and hunters. Then mage with 400k which does not really have a strong themeatic presence in Shadowlands.

    Venthyr: 1.5mill. Now we get to the Covenant that doesn't have a strong theme towards anyone, except priests(which is funny maybe because of vampires, but Venthyr is a mix of that and priests in many ways) which do got 270k of those 1.5mill, almost 1/5, then we got Warriors with 307k and from I have seen, Condemn isn't only good, it's also a fun ability.

    Looking at all that, is it really outside the expectations when it comes to themes and power? Sure, many DO pick the best. But when I read those numbers many of them looks really natural when it comes to themes and choices. And look, I am not arguing that people DO pick whats best. But there is still the choice for most of the player base.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by clevin View Post
    Precisely. Is NF my best choice from a min-max perspective as a balance druid? Yes. Is it also the most obvious choice thematically? Also yes. Same for Pallies and Kyrian, etc.

    This might shock the OP and others, but Blizzard seems to have worked to make the obvious thematic choice for a class also very good choices for character power for those same classes.
    So it makes sense for my Assassin to join Night Fae? A bleeding heavy spec that is literally names after a word for killing people

    Night Fae is also great for Havoc

    Venthyr and Night Fae are good for Ret depending on what your goals are

    I guess it makes total sense Venthyr is the dominate choice for my Enhancement Shaman? Can forget Elemental dead worship like Necrolord being their best!

    Nothing says Affliction Warlock and Shadow Priest like Night Fae!


    Most of the specs I play the overall best covenant doesn't fit thematically
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  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Sadly yeah, and a lot of them appeared thanks to BFA, BFA inflated the ego of a lot of players in a fake way thanks to corruption, now with corruption gone, nothing carries them now so they do subpar dps, so one could say that right now with CN being harder + no titanforging or corruption, how you play now is how you actually perform, not past BFA fake glory, some guys are actually proud of their Nyalotha parses.
    .
    As a casual heroic player(just have to add that you know) I am glad that Shadowlands brought this aspect into the game again, agree 100%. Too many freeriders in mythic raiding that would usually never ever be in there.

    Skill should be rewarded.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Kithelle View Post
    So it makes sense for my Assassin to join Night Fae? A bleeding heavy spec that is literally names after a word for killing people

    Night Fae is also great for Havoc

    Venthyr and Night Fae are good for Ret depending on what your goals are

    I guess it makes total sense Venthyr is the dominate choice for my Enhancement Shaman? Can forget Elemental dead worship like Necrolord being their best!

    Nothing says Affliction Warlock and Shadow Priest like Night Fae!


    Most of the specs I play the overall best covenant doesn't fit thematically
    Yup. That is why almost no one has attachments to their covenant. What's best makes too much of a difference to care about fantasy.
    Fantasy is performing well within my class.

    Btw Holy Paladins are also greatly changing to Venthyr now cause of the huge damage. Holy fantasy as Venthyr? Suuure. You can go fantasy... or you can do as much damage as a DPS in your healer. Fantasy gets thrown to the curb versus results.

    I guess it's not surprising to see some people still in denial here and ignoring that evidence has been presented for it. No one cares about their ass pulled assertions.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-03-14 at 02:17 AM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Then change.
    I'm an aotc raider with a few mythics mixed in and I'm not a 90% parser. I dont want to nerf my friends even further by choosing something that does significantly less damage.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Justintime328 View Post
    I'm an aotc raider with a few mythics mixed in and I'm not a 90% parser. I dont want to nerf my friends even further by choosing something that does significantly less damage.
    And thats your choice. It might be the right one for you, nothing wrong with that? What spec are you playing?

    While I understand where you are coming from, mythic raiders are in a spot where many, if not most would play whatever is best. Just checking warcraftlogs it does, and has been confirmed for years. You playing a warlock, one of the overall best raiding classes atm, with affli being strong. Is that the spec you are playing? If so, is it because then you dont let down your friends or is it because its most fun?

    I wont assume anything, hence the questions. But with any rental power, wouldnt you just pick whats best anyway? On a generally basis, that answer is yes. So why do Covenant matter that much to those players? Should blizzard just remove those things then? Wouldnt it make the game less interesting for the player base overall?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Justintime328 View Post
    I'm an aotc raider with a few mythics mixed in and I'm not a 90% parser. I dont want to nerf my friends even further by choosing something that does significantly less damage.
    Okay so you've picked the one you want. What's the problem exactly?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    With covenants we finally found a way to put to the old argument to rest. Min maxing is what matters to the vast majority of players. Most specs have upwards of 90% of the active player base picking the covenant that offers them the best performance. (There are some exceptions like havoc but that specs dead and its abysmal numbers seem to point towards min maxing rather then against.)

    Now that the old argument has been put to rest do you think in the future we will see blizzard moving away from meaningless systems like covenants and relics now that it has been shown players only care about what gives the best performance barring a tiny minority?
    When you’re unbanned I’d love to see this proof you have

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    When you’re unbanned I’d love to see this proof you have
    It's probably the Preach video where he "proves" that people minmaxers by checking the armory through the API. He checks characters that does difficult end game content and concludes that this is proof of all players minmaxing while completely ignoring the entire casual playerbase who don't partake in content like that.

  10. #150
    The fact that so many of the recommendations for bis covenants and legendaries were initially outright wrong points towards people not being min maxers themselves but instead just want someone to tell them what's best without really thinking about it themselves.

  11. #151
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    I mean that's not really min/maxing. There's a lot more to it than just googling "what covenant best"
    AchaeaKoralin - Are you still out there?| retired.

  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's probably the Preach video where he "proves" that people minmaxers by checking the armory through the API. He checks characters that does difficult end game content and concludes that this is proof of all players minmaxing while completely ignoring the entire casual playerbase who don't partake in content like that.
    So anecdotal proof. Right, got it. In that case OP you’re wrong

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And thats your choice. It might be the right one for you, nothing wrong with that? What spec are you playing?

    While I understand where you are coming from, mythic raiders are in a spot where many, if not most would play whatever is best. Just checking warcraftlogs it does, and has been confirmed for years. You playing a warlock, one of the overall best raiding classes atm, with affli being strong. Is that the spec you are playing? If so, is it because then you dont let down your friends or is it because its most fun?

    I wont assume anything, hence the questions. But with any rental power, wouldnt you just pick whats best anyway? On a generally basis, that answer is yes. So why do Covenant matter that much to those players? Should blizzard just remove those things then? Wouldnt it make the game less interesting for the player base overall?
    The issue comes up when certain contents more or less lock you out of content. For some specs not going one or the other utterly cripples you in pvp or pve. It acts as a restriction to what characters would normally be able to do via talent changes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's probably the Preach video where he "proves" that people minmaxers by checking the armory through the API. He checks characters that does difficult end game content and concludes that this is proof of all players minmaxing while completely ignoring the entire casual playerbase who don't partake in content like that.
    I mean we have the stats of every character that appears on the armory

    https://wowranks.io/stats

    We have the numbers your talking about... this casual palyerbase your trying to conjure doesn't exist

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by MrLachyG View Post
    So anecdotal proof. Right, got it. In that case OP you’re wrong
    It's not just the ones that do difficult content. It's all characters at 60.

    What's more anectodal? Statements backed by data or assertions without any? Be careful who you listen to.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-03-15 at 04:52 PM.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Echocho View Post
    It's probably the Preach video where he "proves" that people minmaxers by checking the armory through the API. He checks characters that does difficult end game content and concludes that this is proof of all players minmaxing while completely ignoring the entire casual playerbase who don't partake in content like that.
    Wow, it's a good thing you're giving a totally objective and 100% fact based description of the situation then. Good thing you're totally not just pulling things out your ass to make everyone disagreeing with you look bad. Because fuck Preach and his anecdotal evidence for not aligning with your anecdotal whatever it is you have.

    Preach has done a video on Covenant / Class / Spec distribution and that had absolutely nothing to do with casual, elitist, raider, PvPer, m+er, pet battler, whatever. He was specifically referring to this site (https://wowranks.io/stats) - and this site looks at all the characters, not just the mean raiders, even the ignorant and dismissive casual like yourself.

    That site shows you 7 million characters and the choices they've made. 7 million characters across all areas of the game. Be it 3k MMR RBG characters or 1/10 LFR world quest casuals. This very site shows you that just about 85% of all Druids are Night Fae, that just about 70% of all Hunters are Night Fae, that just about half of all DEMON HUNTERS are fucking ANGEL PEOPLE (because they've obviously chosen that for the RPG aspect - because that's what you super reasonable RPG casual chubby bunnies do), how just about 70% of all Mages are Night Fae, how just about 70% of all Monks are Kyrian, how just about 75% of all Paladins are Kyrian, how just about 60% of all WARLOCKS are fucking FAIRY PEOPLE (again, the casual RPG loving crowd coming in strong with their thematic choices) or how Shamans and Rogues are the only class that has something even just remotely close to a choice (although even that choice goes away when you look at specs instead of classes).

    You're fucking ignorant. That has got nothing to do with Preach. There are numbers proving that you are a minority, you just don't care about the facts because fuck the facts and you're always right anyways. And everyone disagreeing is just an elitist. And elitists don't matter. Because, as we can clearly see, they are in such a minority, evidently proven by shit like 70% of all Rogues being either fucking angel people or fucking necromancer death brawlers instead of bloody bleeding fuckers. You're fucking ignorant and it's a disgrace that there are people actually believing the ignorant, misleading and flat out false bullshit claims you're spewing.
    Last edited by Gasparde; 2021-03-15 at 04:50 PM.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by RoKPaNda View Post
    I mean that's not really min/maxing. There's a lot more to it than just googling "what covenant best"
    Yes, but it does prove that generally people care more about output than fantasy. Tying them together was a mistake.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2021-03-15 at 05:01 PM.

  17. #157
    The Lightbringer Draknalor186's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    With covenants we finally found a way to put to the old argument to rest. Min maxing is what matters to the vast majority of players. Most specs have upwards of 90% of the active player base picking the covenant that offers them the best performance. (There are some exceptions like havoc but that specs dead and its abysmal numbers seem to point towards min maxing rather then against.)

    Now that the old argument has been put to rest do you think in the future we will see blizzard moving away from meaningless systems like covenants and relics now that it has been shown players only care about what gives the best performance barring a tiny minority?
    I don't play Necrolords because it's the best, i play it because it suits my DK the most.

    On the shaman tho i play Venthyr because it's the best for enhancement.

    I tho like venthyr thematiclly as well tho.. rather pick venthyr than ardenweald

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Simple Rick View Post
    With covenants we finally found a way to put to the old argument to rest. Min maxing is what matters to the vast majority of players. Most specs have upwards of 90% of the active player base picking the covenant that offers them the best performance. (There are some exceptions like havoc but that specs dead and its abysmal numbers seem to point towards min maxing rather then against.)

    Now that the old argument has been put to rest do you think in the future we will see blizzard moving away from meaningless systems like covenants and relics now that it has been shown players only care about what gives the best performance barring a tiny minority?
    People may min/max, but 95% of the players don't even do their rotations correctly, to begin with, they just want to see their character's "potential" if done correctly.

    So while most might do this, they shouldn't change the game because of it. Ion has mentioned it many times in Q&As that he knows folks do this, but logs show that most players don't even use trinkets or CDs effectively. So while a trinket may sim better if it is on-use, if you aren't using it, it is a DPS loss. And VERY few players understand this.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Electric Lighter View Post
    The issue comes up when certain contents more or less lock you out of content. For some specs not going one or the other utterly cripples you in pvp or pve. It acts as a restriction to what characters would normally be able to do via talent changes.
    Thats it though, some see it as an issue. Some do not. So who are we gonna listen to? Nothing with Covenants that locks me out of content. Nothing of that locks the three times as many that do heroic Castle Nathria compared to mythic. Why are so many warlocks playing as affliction? Is it because they have a choice then, or is it because it performs better? If we have that for classes, how is it really an issue when it comes to a sub thing like Covenants? The issue is a much larger one when it comes to how specs perform, rather than what the Covenants give them.

    Many do care about performance, no doubt. I would wager most do. But Covenant only "locks" out a very low minority in the game. And those would do ANYTHING to reach their goal. And that's their choice. With Covenants or not. So in the end, the issue is all about rental power. If it wasn't Covenant, it was corruption,essences or Azerite Armor. Or maxing Artifact weapon or getting the best legendaries.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Thats it though, some see it as an issue. Some do not. So who are we gonna listen to? Nothing with Covenants that locks me out of content. Nothing of that locks the three times as many that do heroic Castle Nathria compared to mythic. Why are so many warlocks playing as affliction? Is it because they have a choice then, or is it because it performs better? If we have that for classes, how is it really an issue when it comes to a sub thing like Covenants? The issue is a much larger one when it comes to how specs perform, rather than what the Covenants give them.

    Many do care about performance, no doubt. I would wager most do. But Covenant only "locks" out a very low minority in the game. And those would do ANYTHING to reach their goal. And that's their choice. With Covenants or not. So in the end, the issue is all about rental power. If it wasn't Covenant, it was corruption,essences or Azerite Armor. Or maxing Artifact weapon or getting the best legendaries.
    You change it for those it effects since the others have proven they don't care... what a dumb question to ask.

    You can't have the I do whatever i want attitude then try to play it up about why don't people cater to you.

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