8 dead at Atlanta Massage and Spa shootings

[Theodarzna]

Show proof that we think it's a hate crime because he's white.

You don't seem to have a reason to believe its a hate crime except a belief that it must be and that he is lying about that motive. Which is a pretty wild conjecture.

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I mean...he targeted 3 Asian owned spas that were not all in close proximity and 6/8 of his victims were Asian women. Why bring up the Boulder shooter? This is the thread about the shooting in Atlanta.

And? Do we know he actually targeted them or that those were simply unfortunate? Plus not all his victims were Asian women, so? How do you explain the other two? Why did "AsianSlayer1488" as you claim also shoot non-Asians? Did he look up "Asian businesses"? Do you have proof he did?

I bring up the Boulder shooter, mainly because there the shooter was less convenient for you and the victims were universally a single ethnic category, different from the shooter, and yet no assertions of a hate crime were bandied about by you lot.

[Edge-]

And? Do we know he actually targeted them or that those were simply unfortunate? Plus not all his victims were Asian women, so?

Not all the victims in the El Paso shooting were Latino, either. This is a terrible, awful, no-good bar you're setting here and I hope you realize how morally repugnant it is.

How do you explain the other two?

Why do I need to explain them?

Why did "AsianSlayer1488" as you claim also shoot non-Asians?

Where'd I write "AsianSlayer1488"? Seriously Theo, you need to stop reading things I don't write and making up empty strawmen. They're really east to just push over, but it's exhausting when there are so many of them.

I bring up the Boulder shooter, mainly because there the shooter was less convenient for you and the victims were universally a single ethnic category, different from the shooter, and yet no assertions of a hate crime were bandied about by you lot.

...what? This has nothing to do with literally anything we're discussing and is some lazy, unrelated bullshit Theo.

No assertions of hate crimes bandied about? Even though initially there was a lot of assumptions that he was a pot-bellied white guy? If anything I think taht speaks more to us looking at the victims rather than the shooter in an effort to make some sense of motive, no? That he didn't seem to target minorities or a specific gender speaks to that. That his victims in a predominately white area were also white? That we're not yet seeing any evidence or indications of hate beyond that?

Isn't that like, literally the opposite of what you've been claiming we've been doing for week over a week while you pearl clutched and accused people in this thread of continually discussing the Atlanta shooters race? You know, when you've been the only one actually bringing up his race this past week.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

You don't seem to have a reason to believe its a hate crime except a belief that it must be and that he is lying about that motive. Which is a pretty wild conjecture.

Except the fact that he targeted 3 asian spas and killed 6 asian women

Now, what evidence do you have to prove that I think it's because he's white?

[Theodarzna]

Not all the victims in the El Paso shooting were Latino, either. This is a terrible, awful, no-good bar you're setting here and I hope you realize how morally repugnant it is.

Unlike in this case where its purely your fevered imagination conjuring evidence out of phantoms, in the El Paso case, he released a manifesto against Mexicans. You know, evidence? Do you have evidence? Is evidence morally repugnant now? I guess so.

Why do I need to explain them?

Honestly your entire case for this being a hate crime depends on:
(1) The shooter lying about their stated motive, which is pure conjecture at this point.
(2) The shooter looked up Asian owned businesses.

Neither of which has any evidence, so, given some of the victims weren't Asian, I'd ask why they were targeted?

Where'd I write "AsianSlayer1488"? Seriously Theo

Humor I guess is lost on the humorless. The point being you are conjuring some hardcore Neo-Nazi super racist, a Bigot Demon from the Racism dimension. I'm rolling with your wild delusions here.

...what? This has nothing to do with literally anything we're discussing and is some lazy, unrelated bullshit Theo.

No assertions of hate crimes bandied about? Even though initially there was a lot of assumptions that he was a pot-bellied white guy? If anything I think taht speaks more to us looking at the victims rather than the shooter in an effort to make some sense of motive, no?

Isn't that like, literally the opposite of what you've been claiming we've been doing for week over a week while you pearl clutched and accused people in this thread of continually discussing the Atlanta shooters race? You know, when you've been the only one actually bringing up his race this past week.

Ah, you assumed that shooting was a hate crime until you know, it didn't fit your world view than promptly moved on once it didn't work for that angle. But I mean if the only evidence we need to declare something a hate crime is "Person was X, and most of the victims were Y!" then yeah any shooting could be a hate crime.

[Edge-]

Unlike in this case where its purely your fevered imagination conjuring evidence out of phantoms, in the El Paso case, he released a manifesto against Mexicans. You know, evidence? Do you have evidence? Is evidence morally repugnant now? I guess so.

Theo, why do you keep act like I'm saying that this is 100% conclusively a hate crime? Like, please find me where I ever even hinted at this. Because all I've said, repeatedly, is that evidence suggests that it may be a possibility and it's worth pursuing further to see if there is anything there.

Honestly your entire case for this being a hate crime depends on:
(1) The shooter lying about their stated motive, which is pure conjecture at this point.
(2) The shooter looked up Asian owned businesses.

Neither of which has any evidence, so, given some of the victims weren't Asian, I'd ask why they were targeted?

The latter is actually evidence. It's not proof, but evidence. And it alone isn't enough to prove anything, as I've said before. But it's certainly something worth looking into further.

Humor I guess is lost on the humorless. The point being you are conjuring some hardcore Neo-Nazi super racist, a Bigot Demon from the Racism dimension. I'm rolling with your wild delusions here.

Where'd I do that, again? You got any posts to cite? Is the guy like, not an awful demon for murdering 8 people regardless of any other factors?

Ah, you assumed that shooting was a hate crime until you know

I did? Theo, the way you know the inner machinations of my mind better than even I do is kinda scary.

it didn't fit your world view than promptly moved on once it didn't work for that angle.

It was instantly suspect given the recent mass shooting and the ongoing issues of race-related violence across the board. But it quickly became clear that it was unlikely to be the case. Like, I was open to the possibility there (as I am here), but I'm also not going to dogmatically stick by whatever my first opinion is. If my first opinion of him was, "could be a hate criminal!" the ongoing evidence hasn't suggested anything of the sort so my opinion remains, "He's a despicable mass murderer".

But I mean if the only evidence we need to declare something a hate crime is "Person was X, and most of the victims were Y!" then yeah any shooting could be a hate crime.

No, that may be evidence to investigate if hate crime charges are warranted. And I don't think you'll find any disagreement on that.

[Santti]

Plus not all his victims were Asian women, so? How do you explain the other two?

I don't think we have any details of the actual shooting, but it's not hard to imagine why something like that happens, even if you are targeting Asians, specifically.

Maybe they had a gun? Maybe they looked Asian enough for the shooter? Maybe they were just on the way, panicking? Maybe the shooter considered them "collateral damage", and had to be taken out, so he could continue his massacre without someone alerting the cops? Maybe they were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time?

You honestly think someone conducting a mass murder like this, is going out of his way to check everyone up close, once the panic has fully settled? Maybe taking cigarette breaks between murders, taking notes and asking questions if they are maybe Asian, and could you please stop screaming, I have places to be?

You are just lashing out, because someone called you a racist at some point, aren't you?

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I don't think we have any details of the actual shooting, but it's not hard to imagine why something like that happens, even if you are targeting Asians, specifically.

Maybe they had a gun? Maybe they looked Asian enough for the shooter? Maybe they were just on the way, panicking? Maybe the shooter considered them "collateral damage", and had to be taken out, so he could continue his massacre without someone alerting the cops? Maybe they were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time?

You honestly think someone conducting a mass murder like this, is going out of his way to check everyone up close, once the panic has fully settled? Maybe taking cigarette breaks between murders, taking notes and asking questions if they are maybe Asian, and could you please stop screaming, I have places to be?

You are just lashing out, because someone called you a racist at some point, aren't you?

The other way to see it is that, if those victims prove that the shootings weren't racially motivated because those two victims weren't asian... then it also proves that the shootings weren't sex related because they weren't sex workers. Which would then also prove that that shooter lied about his motives for the shooting...which would prove the rest of of right for calling him a liar.

Of course, another explanation is that those two victims were collateral damage for being in the wrong place at the wrong time... but I mean, when has that ever happened? :P

[Felya]

I don't think we have any details of the actual shooting, but it's not hard to imagine why something like that happens, even if you are targeting Asians, specifically.

Their argument is that they are sex workers, because they are asian the shooter said so... let’s just pretend it’s not a stereotype born out of American imperialism...

[Theodarzna]

The latter is actually evidence. It's not proof, but evidence. And it alone isn't enough to prove anything, as I've said before. But it's certainly something worth looking into further.

The latter is evidence, contingent upon him looking that up ahead of time and also on him in fact lying about his motive. So right now you guys are going hog wild based solely on evidence that is only true contingent upon him making up his reasoning (Which you have only idle speculation and no proof to justify that), and that he actually searched up and planned to attack Asian businesses.

Theo, why do you keep act like I'm saying that this is 100% conclusively a hate crime?

Where'd I do that, again? You got any posts to cite? Is the guy like, not an awful demon for murdering 8 people regardless of any other factors?

Because you've decided to step in here and help your clique out and call it immoral for me to even question if it was one, Come off it.

In Edge-land, asking for basic evidence that isn't contingent on speculation being true is morally repugnant:

This is a terrible, awful, no-good bar you're setting here and I hope you realize how morally repugnant it is.

It was instantly suspect given the recent mass shooting and the ongoing issues of race-related violence across the board. But it quickly became clear that it was unlikely to be the case. Like, I was open to the possibility there (as I am here), but I'm also not going to dogmatically stick by whatever my first opinion is. If my first opinion of him was, "could be a hate criminal!" the ongoing evidence hasn't suggested anything of the sort so my opinion remains, "He's a despicable mass murderer".

Neither was I but I was told by a Moderator that it was morally repugnant to even ask for evidence or have a standard of proof.

No, that may be evidence to investigate if hate crime charges are warranted. And I don't think you'll find any disagreement on that.

Well right now there isn't any proof of a hate crime, at least not a racial one. Maybe a Misogyny one, given right now his stated motive is really fire and brimstone biblical obsession with sexual immorality.

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I don't think we have any details of the actual shooting, but it's not hard to imagine why something like that happens, even if you are targeting Asians, specifically.

Maybe they had a gun? Maybe they looked Asian enough for the shooter? Maybe they were just on the way, panicking? Maybe the shooter considered them "collateral damage", and had to be taken out, so he could continue his massacre without someone alerting the cops? Maybe they were just in the wrong place, at the wrong time?

You honestly think someone conducting a mass murder like this, is going out of his way to check everyone up close, once the panic has fully settled? Maybe taking cigarette breaks between murders, taking notes and asking questions if they are maybe Asian, and could you please stop screaming, I have places to be?

You are just lashing out, because someone called you a racist at some point, aren't you?

Is there proof it was a race based hate crime? I mean? Again, you are making a lot of leaps without much evidence.

[Santti]

Snip

Seriously?

All of this reads like you have actual sympathy for the mass murderer, here. Because he was called racist.

[Felya]

Is there proof it was a race based hate crime? I mean? Again, you are making a lot of leaps without much evidence.

It obviously is... it’s built on American adventurism in Asia... their depiction from both returning veterans and pop culture is being reflected in the existence of an argument that it isn’t a hate crime... because the explanation is the same trope born out of American imperialism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_Vietnam_War

In addition, Vietnamese civilian women were subject to further sexual assaults during the breadth of the conflict, and much like the Korean War, they were used as “comfort women” and prostitutes. In 1990, the Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery was established by nearly 40 progressive women’s rights organisations in order to address the issue of comfort women and sex slaves kept for the Imperial Japanese Army. Over time, the council pledged that its long-term goal is to review all historical instances of sexual slavery within militaries to prevent any further sexual abuse of women during wartime. In March 2012, on International Women’s Day, the council established the Butterfly Fund – a not for profit organisation that helps women who have been used and abused by military forces in times of war. Since its establishment, the fund had been providing support to victims of sexual violence in the Congo Civil War and the children born as a result of that violence. In 2013, the fund began its campaign to support the women assaulted in the Vietnam War. The Butterfly Fund’s symbol – a butterfly – represents the hope of sexual assault survivors and the hope of other women that women will be freed from oppression, discrimination and violence and that one day all women and girls will be free to spread their wings.

[Edge-]

Because you've decided to step in here and help your clique out and call it immoral for me to even question if it was one, Come off it.

I don't have a "clique", Theo. There's not some secret group of us hanging out in like, Discord or something talking about how we're all totally gonna go bombard Theo with responses.

In Edge-land, asking for basic evidence that isn't contingent on speculation being true is morally repugnant:

First one was claiming that because some members outside a racial group may have died, that something can't be a hate crime. That's repugnant and I stand by it. That's a general sentiment not specific to this shooting at all.

Second one talking about how it's suspect...suspect as in not conclusive. Neither post you quoted says what you seem to think it does.

Neither was I but I was told by a Moderator that it was morally repugnant to even ask for evidence or have a standard of proof.

And? Do we know he actually targeted them or that those were simply unfortunate? Plus not all his victims were Asian women, so?

In response to this, because the heavy implication is that because he killed a few non-Asians it couldn't possibly be racially motivated. That's a repugnant opinion as a generality, IMO. If that's a matter of inelegant wording that's fine, I'm guilty of as much plenty often.

And you weren't "told by a moderator", you know how this site operates and that I am not a mod of these boards but rather a regular poster here.

Well right now there isn't any proof of a hate crime, at least not a racial one. Maybe a Misogyny one, given right now his stated motive is really fire and brimstone biblical obsession with sexual immorality.

Cool, it's a good thing I'm not saying this is conclusively a hate crime based on race or gender, but that given the circumstances investigations to see if there is any water behind those motivations is reasonable.

Why do you seem to somehow consistently miss me repeatedly saying that I think this the hate crime elements should be investigated, yet somehow read mountains of words I never actually type?

[Theodarzna]

Seriously?

All of this reads like you have actual sympathy for the mass murderer, here. Because he was called racist.

Lol, try to psycho-analyze your way out. How about you actually substantiate the assertion on the alleged hate crime?

[Felya]

How about you actually substantiate the assertion on the alleged hate crime?

The sexualized depiction due to military adventurism in Asia, as part of what people refer to as, American imperialism.

[Santti]

Lol, try to psycho-analyze your way out. How about you actually substantiate the assertion on the alleged hate crime?

Plenty of reasons have been thrown out there, by people smarter than me. Don't look at me, if they don't stick with you.

I'm much more interested why someone would go all this length to do what you are doing.

Why are you doing this? Call me naive, but I can't fathom why anyone would go this far to defend a mass murderer from the severe allegations of being called a racist.

Unless, it's somehow personal.

[Theodarzna]

In response to this, because the heavy implication is that because he killed a few non-Asians it couldn't possibly be racially motivated. That's a repugnant opinion as a generality, IMO. If that's a matter of inelegant wording that's fine, I'm guilty of as much plenty often.

The implication is that "Do you have proof he was shooting them because they were Asian?" which apparently you do not want to actually respond to that part. And I doubt you actually read it that way. But hey, neither of us believe one another are actually discussing anything with one another. You misread or on purpose decided to mischaracterize my point, nothing I'm not used to.

First one was claiming that because some members outside a racial group may have died, that something can't be a hate crime. That's repugnant and I stand by it. That's a general sentiment not specific to this shooting at all.

Second one talking about how it's suspect...suspect as in not conclusive. Neither post you quoted says what you seem to think it does.

But since you insist on doing this. Here, I'll explain it again and again and again for you and others.

So, we have ZERO evidence he had some racial animus towards Asians. No comments, no manifesto, no membership as of yet in the KKK, no twitter posts from an account of his, nobody can point to proof he looked up Asian owned businesses, or anything. Unlike Dylan Roof who straight said that is why he shot up that church and owned a museums worth of Confederate Flags, or the El Paso shooter who laid out a manifesto declaring his desire to shoot Mexicans. This guy said "I'm too horny" and everyone in this thread is saying "OHP He is lying its really racism!" despite nothing indicating that.

You characterize my questioning as immoral or repugnant, which is a nice touch. It's also suspect only in the minds of the perpetually online. Right now, nothing leads to that conclusion except for the deep libidinal desire of some people for hate crimes to pad out their view of the world.

Cool, it's a good thing I'm not saying this is conclusively a hate crime based on race or gender, but that given the circumstances investigations to see if there is any water behind those motivations is reasonable.

Why do you seem to somehow consistently miss me repeatedly saying that I think this the hate crime elements should be investigated, yet somehow read mountains of words I never actually type?

Sure, So now after running defense for your clique here suggesting its wrong to question if this was a hate crime, now you suggest "Oh, I'm just asking if this is one!" and then go on to say "Investigate the hate crime elements", which as of yet don't seem to exist. Unless someone can turn up a confederate flag or some racist posts, you guys are simply just hungry for an Anti-Asian hate crime you guys are comfortable talking about.

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Plenty of reasons have been thrown out there,

The reasons that are thrown out are:
(1) He must be lying about his motive.....

And then everything else is entirely contingent on that factor.

[Felya]

Unless someone can turn up a confederate flag or some racist posts, you guys are simply just hungry for an Anti-Asian hate crime you guys are comfortable talking about.

This is a pig called “crisis actors”, with a tiny bit of make up.

[draynay]

Show proof it was a hate crime or you know, wait till such proof exists.

Why?

I bring up the Boulder shooter

...because you're not interested in discussing the thread topic.

Do you have evidence?

I didn't realize we were in court, I would've dressed for it.

How about you actually substantiate the assertion on the alleged hate crime?

Again, why? Nobody has any duty to prove you wrong, its a discussion thread, you don't get to dictate the discussion.

[Felya]

And then everything else is entirely contingent on that factor.

The depiction and treatment of Asian women during Korean and Vietnam wars, that leads him to associate Asian women, with sex workers.

Edit: His reason is why it’s a hate crime... the reason there is even an argument, is due to how ingrained the stereotype is in American culture.

[Santti]

The reasons that are thrown out are:
(1) He must be lying about his motive.....

And then everything else is entirely contingent on that factor.

I'm going to leave smarter people handle the other stuff.

But don't bail on me now, god dammit.

Why are you going at this length, to defend these allegations of racism?