Why does SL feel like end of expansion time?

[Glorious Leader]

But there is reward. For everything. Thogast could use a bit more.
Content does not need iLvl or power gain behind it all the time.
Your lesson learned from WoD was put into something on the opposite end in Legion and Bfa where, if you wanted to stay current you had to do tons of stuff each week just to be able to compete.

I am a happy mythic raider who does not have to deal with shit like artifact power, islands and whatnot anymore. Log in. Raid. Done. You can do the same with PvP and Mythic+. If you want do do more. Do more. The content is there.

Stop that "it was in your heads" bullshit. Of course you don't have to do anything. No one froces you to play wow. Nothing is forced. But it was required to reach certain goal.

Its all in your head to be honest and that hasn't changed nor was it required to reach that goal. You weren't chasing world's first and if you were you just did it by and large and didn't complain.

Content doesn't need ilvl or power gain except the content you like. Its incredible easy to be blase about other shit but if I suggested to you raids and specifically mythic raid shouldn't award power gain you'd be up in fucking arms about it. Next you'll say gear is a tool or some bullshit.

[Electric Lighter]

If the tuning didn't require it it would not. Simple as that.

I mean the tuning doesn't require it right now. Take away ten ilvs from each mythic+s rewards and you have what its tuned around. Yes people try to overgear it but that isn't going to change by nerfing it unless you turn a 15 into a heroic.

[VinceVega]

There are already massive barriers of entry. Raiderio and such already exist and are doing their work. Would be nice to have something decent to work toward while I'm waiting in LFG getting rejected for the 800th time.

No there are not. You just can't jump into high level keys without doing anything before. Why would someone who does not know you take you without experience? Work yourself up like everyone on raider.io did too.
Or find a few people who like you. Maybe they will help you out. Why would i take the chance to ruin my key by taking someone without experience, probably as a result not he best gear? I do that. But only with people i know. Like guildies for example. Not with total strangers i allready take a risk with by not knowing if they even stay the whole run because they have ZERO to loose.

[TheFirstOnes]

They can, sure. But you flat out said lorewise we aren't even close to the end. Do you work for blizzard? I mean without insider knowledge you can't know for sure where we are lorewise.

"Do you work for Blizzard" is such a non statement. Yes, I have no fucking idea how the story is actually going to go, but there are so many things here that will likely not be solved in 9.1 alone: Where is the Primus (COULD be solved in 9.1, but we don't fucking know for sure)? Will we know more about the inbetween? What is our connection with the First Ones? Where does Azeroth's Titan fit in all of this? How could 9.1 be the end if the Arbiter is still in a coma and there's NOTHING in the patch that implies she'll have a role here? How are the Gardens of Life responding to the whole BS with the Jailer and his attempts to destroy not just the structure of the counterbalance between Life and Death, but also the structure of the Cosmos? Who is the Winter Queen's Sister? Is Sire Denathrius going to be freed? Who is this female "Dreadlord"? Who is the vessel of Life that was hinted at during the Ny'alotha raid? Where does the Jailer himself fit in with the Sanctum of Domination raid? He's not mentioned anywhere? What is this "skybox" change post-SoD raid that's supposed to provide Argus-like Vibes?

There's SO MUCH lore they could provide in Shadowlands, that it's almost impossible for this patch to be the end all be all for SL. Do not write a false narrative of the expansion just because you dislike it, or because you think the Blizzard work schedule is some omniscient force that cannot be altered with whatsoever (Which is false btw, especially with SL...funny enough).

[Tadkins]

Just run your own keys. I managed to work my way to 14-16s in two weeks though relics and a low ilv leggo are holding me back a little. It isn't really gear keeping you out but it will be worse if you make it be the issue.

Random battlegrounds and warmode are what I care about most and you need gear to survive in those. Which means I'm basically forced to do M+ to get said gear, and because M+ is about impossible to get into if you're not some spectacular player with a super high gear ilvl/raiderio score, I quit because there was nothing left for me.

[Glorious Leader]

Just run your own keys. I managed to work my way to 14-16s in two weeks though relics and a low ilv leggo are holding me back a little. It isn't really gear keeping you out but it will be worse if you make it be the issue.

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I mean the tuning isn't requiring it right now... a group of 200ilv can smash a 15. People won't lower the requirements for ilv just because its nerfed they will still filter for success...

Then the tuning needs to be lowered still. Regardless the behavior of the community is an ill excuse to not provide other players with meaningful progression systems. Did they self sort people who didn't have a sufficient artifact lvl weapon? or necklace in bfa?

[rhorle]

If the tuning didn't require it it would not. Simple as that.

That isn't entirely true since Gear Score which was a predecessor to Raider.io existed when tuning didn't really require it. These exist because people want to maximize their time investment when pugging. Even before failed keys people still didn't want to waste their time with other players who were terrible. Which is why there will always be a system to judge players for the purposes of pugs.

[TheFirstOnes]

Yes, we are in a drought. There was covid and there was some turn over on the team. That is why the patch is delayed.

Yes, it will mean that content planned for this expansion will definitely get cut to make the next xpac on time. It's not the end of the world. It's happened before for other reasons.

"That's why the patch is delayed"

Uhm...can you show me where that was stated at all?

[Electric Lighter]

Random battlegrounds and warmode are what I care about most and you need gear to survive in those. Which means I'm basically forced to do M+ to get said gear, and because M+ is about impossible to get into if you're not some spectacular player with a super high gear ilvl/raiderio score, I quit because there was nothing left for me.

Wouldn't you just do rated bgs? I did them the first week to get my alt to 1800 to leap frog my ilv.

[TheFirstOnes]

I played SL when it first launched. Got really psyched up for the Maw intro quest, did Bastion, got a little bit into Maldraxxus...then got bored. I've leveled professions, did old raids...anything but current content. Sitting at level 55 in Maldraxxus and not motivated to continue on. It does seem rather dull and content-less since launch but I chuck it up to the pandemic and stuff. I've been playing Fortnite with my kid to pass the time and when we're done I think "Maybe I should log onto WoW and finish up to at least 60, maybe I'll get interested again." Then I just turn off the monitor and go to sleep. Almost 17 years of WoW (2004 to now) and I'm a tad burned out of the leveling, rep, and power grinds. I'm still subbed but I can't find a reason to force me to log in.

1 reason is there's no flying. That's just a complete turn off for me. And now that I'm waaaaaaaay behind in the Covenant grind, it'll be longer until I can get flying in 9.1. I'm sure I'll get back into it but it's such a chore and not fun for me.

Just do callings, LFR, Normal/Heroic raids, random BG/Epic BG queues, kill the world boss, and do Dungeon runs (Heroic or Mythic).

Literally ANY OF THOSE are free renown. It's not that bad...

[Electric Lighter]

Then the tuning needs to be lowered still. Regardless the behavior of the community is an ill excuse to not provide other players with meaningful progression systems. Did they self sort people who didn't have a sufficient artifact lvl weapon? or necklace in bfa?

Well yes a lot did...

I don't get what you want though it sounds like you just want mythic 15 to become heroic and I can't agree that would be a positive thing.

[Glorious Leader]

That isn't entirely true since Gear Score which was a predecessor to Raider.io existed when tuning didn't really require it. These exist because people want to maximize their time investment when pugging. Even before failed keys people still didn't want to waste their time with other players who were terrible. Which is why there will always be a system to judge players for the purposes of pugs.

Gear score really just buttresses that point though. Nobody asked for gear score to farm regular dungeons for frost badges. You qued for it.

[Electric Lighter]

Gear score really just buttresses that point though. Nobody asked for gear score to farm regular dungeons for frost badges. You qued for it.

I mean they asked for it for naxx....

[Echocho]

The problem is as it has always been. Outside of raids / m+ / pvp, the game simply isn't fun.

I have to agree with you there. I've been playing a lot of ESO lately and it's astounding how much more fun it is in that department. It feels like a proper RPG.

[Depakote]

Where did this discussion come around to WoW Killers ?

There are No WoW killers, WoW will always be a decent game, compared to the rest, it has such a wonderful foundation that can't be destroyed... everyone has cash shops, grinds, boosts etc...

Would WoW be better off without them.... I think so, but gaming has changed

As long as WoW keeps making dungeons and raids, I will keep logging on to try them out

I have a million gripes with WoW.... but it's still the best game ever made

Wow hasn't been a decent game for quite some time though. Ironically the wow killers were the ones who created the new WoW.

[VinceVega]

Its all in your head to be honest and that hasn't changed nor was it required to reach that goal. You weren't chasing world's first and if you were you just did it by and large and didn't complain.

Content doesn't need ilvl or power gain except the content you like. Its incredible easy to be blase about other shit but if I suggested to you raids and specifically mythic raid shouldn't award power gain you'd be up in fucking arms about it. Next you'll say gear is a tool or some bullshit.

Ah yes the good old, "you only need to put effort into it if you are world first raider"

And yes it was required. In Legion a not level artifact made you basically useless in raids where you wipe around the enrage. In BfA wihtout the right corruption you where half as usefull as someone with the right one. If i would not have level my neck in BfA my essence could not be played and so on. Now i only have to do the weekly quest to get to 40. I can even ignore them until level 33.

In an RPG gear is at the core of the game. People like getting new gear. So yes. If they would remove gear from raids/dungeons/pvp it would be a weird move.
And the gear from mythic raiding is basically only needed in mythic raiding. I never needed it in Legion when i only did heroic raids. Becaus the content i do gives me the gear i need.
Like i said. If a WQ for example gives me Mythic level gear, why have gear at all in the first place? Take it out. Make warcraft into a mobile game.

Mythic raiding is forced it you want to have mythic gear. Not even mythic level gear. You get that by mythic+ and pvp too. Just specifically mythic raiding gear.
Taking out mythic loot won't do anything to people who don't raid mythic. No change for them. You just fuck over mythic raider. WHich is basically what half these posts are about. Some pety revenge of some type because some people can't get that loot in the current content.... but they can one expansion later.

Why do people always complain about that stuff? You get it later but you get it. Complain about PvP elite gear. That gets removed forever.

[Glorious Leader]

Well yes a lot did...

I don't get what you want though it sounds like you just want mythic 15 to become heroic and I can't agree that would be a positive thing.

I dont ever recall trying to get into an m+ group with the express criteria "must have neck lvl 90"

[Depakote]

I mean they asked for it for naxx....

It was bad then, it's bad now.. Why is that hard to comprehend?

[TheFirstOnes]

The problem with SL is that it's boring. And it's only boring because PVE gear drops suck, as well as the fact that, unlike Legion and BFA, there's no AP grind. BFA had way too many chores to do, and as soon as you hit max lvl in Legion during 7.0, it was basically the same as 9.0 except for the fact you has Artifact skins to get, as well as AP to grind.

SL has no AP grind. And, honestly, while SL is boring in that regards, it's also fun, because it doesn't feel like a chore. Just feels like a game. Sure, a lot of it might SEEM incomplete, but I get why they did it. Seems a lot of gameplay stuff is connected with the lore, and while that can suck in some peoples eyes (I do agree that this really shouldn't be the case), I get why Blizzard's doing it aswell.

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Wow hasn't been a decent game for quite some time though. Ironically the wow killers were the ones who created the new WoW.

It's a decent game. That's why we're not happy with the product atm. Decent isn't good. And good is what we want.

[Electric Lighter]

I dont ever recall trying to get into an m+ group with the express criteria "must have neck lvl 90"

At what point in the expansion? Later on with catch up you had enough to activate your armor but they simply used raider io to make sure you were not trying to do it in full warfront catch up gear.

I know your trying to draw a connection you see but I don't know if anyone else sees it but you.