The Machismo discussion from the Biden/Haris thread so he can stop derailing it.

[Machismo]

Yes. That's literally always been the argument. How are you only now realizing this?



How I opened literally my first post in this thread. Congratulations; you've just figured out one of the bits I've been talking about this entire time in plain English, and acting as if that's a revelation to you.

Whether the minimum wage largely kept pace with inflation was never the issue. Whether the minimum wage has ever been sufficient was the issue. You've moved the goalposts around for so long you've put them back where they started by accident.

FDR and the 75th Congress disagree with you.

[Elegiac]

FDR and the 75th Congress disagree with you.

I don't give a shit what FDR wanted, he's been dead for decades.

Imagine being this blatant. Lol.

[Machismo]

Stuck making minimum wage and get pregnant? Just throw the whole human away. No freebies here, bucko.

Once again, blaming me for the decisions others make...

SO, should we simply pay people more, just because they have kids? Should we have different minimum wages based on marital status and children?

[downnola]

*waits for the "muh personal responsibility" bell to drop*

Imagine gatekeeping prosperity behind an exploitative system that grinds your soul into mush and alienates you from your labor just so you can tell other people to be responsible and not have kids because they're poor.

[Machismo]

And I'll continue to insist that business owners be legally required to fairly compensate their workers, too. Lol.

They are.

Problem solved. If you don't think so, then don't use those businesses.

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Imagine being this blatant. Lol.

He's the one invoking FDR... I simply pushed it back in his face.

[Endus]

I don't give a shit what FDR wanted, he's been dead for decades.

Don't care what you think of FDR, frankly. Like so many other threads, my participation here isn't about convincing you. You're making a solid case that you're a lost cause.

I can underscore the misanthropy inherent in your views to everyone else, though. And that's a worthy enough goal.

They voted for this, signed it... and walked away. And, as your own graph shows, it has kept up with the cost of living.

I literally pointed out another lie.

"What he meant was..."

Fuck that. Stop trying to retcon the last 80 fucking yars.

You keep using this "what he meant was", when I'm directly quoting FDR in his own words. I'm not re-interpreting anything, there.

I'm not arguing for any "retcons". Just that we take one person at his word. I don't have to dance through weird irrational justifications like "anyone who votes for a bill must be in complete agreement with everything within the bill and that it solves every problem forever", like you're insisting on here.

[Machismo]

Then why do you keep pointing at original intent as if it's somehow evidence that minimum wage shouldn't be a living wage.

That's his argument... take it up with him.

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Don't care what you think of FDR, frankly. Like so many other threads, my participation here isn't about convincing you. You're making a solid case that you're a lost cause.

I can underscore the misanthropy inherent in your views to everyone else, though. And that's a worthy enough goal.



You keep using this "what he meant was", when I'm directly quoting FDR in his own words. I'm not re-interpreting anything, there.

I'm not arguing for any "retcons". Just that we take one person at his word. I don't have to dance through weird irrational justifications like "anyone who votes for a bill must be in complete agreement with everything within the bill and that it solves every problem forever", like you're insisting on here.

And FDR disagrees with you, with his own fucking signature.

FDR also wanted black people to be second-class citizens, so should we also honor that?

[Endus]

He's the one invoking FDR... I simply pushed it back in his face.

You're getting angry and upset. That's not pushing anything "back in my face".

I'm still just taking FDR by his own words. That's how I started this, that's how I'll end it, because you've given me no reason to think he didn't believe what he was saying.

[Machismo]

You're getting angry and upset. That's not pushing anything "back in my face".

I'm still just taking FDR by his own words. That's how I started this, that's how I'll end it, because you've given me no reason to think he didn't believe what he was saying.

I'm not angry at all, I have FDR signing this bill, which shows that the wage he created is actually lower than it is now.

I'm taking him by his own words, and his own actions.

If you don't like it, take it up with FDR and the 75th Congress.

[Endus]

And FDR disagrees with you, with his own fucking signature.

Wrong.

This is irrational and nonsensical. I have no idea how you're even deriving this premise, because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

FDR also wanted black people to be second-class citizens, so should we also honor that?

Hey, look, a straw man.

Try sticking to the argument at hand rather than making up new ones nobody was arguing and pretending that's a valid argument.

[Machismo]

well at least we agreed you made it up so we can move foward.


Its shameful that you are glad that pulling that many people out of poverty is DOA.

Do you kick puppies for fun too?

Nope, swing and a miss.

I'm not the one trying to wreck small businesses and drive up costs on hard-working Americans.

Why do you hate the middle class?

See how that works?

[Elegiac]

Imagine gatekeeping prosperity behind an exploitative system that grinds your soul into mush and alienates you from your labor just so you can be told to be responsible and not have kids because you're poor.

The heinous thing is this literally just stems from the need for the privileged to create a justification for inequality in their heads so they don't feel so bad about being privileged.

Personal responsibility narratives are popular among the rich and their simps in the working and middle classes because it serves the dual purpose of flattering the rich by creating the impression they "earned" their wealth while also absolving them of any need to question the system because any instance of poverty is simply someone not making the right choices.

So yeah, a large part of our shitty society is simply a function of tedious rich people trying to convince themselves and everyone else that an unjust system is totally fine, normal, and even if it isn't it will never change so there's no point in trying.

[Machismo]

Wrong.

This is irrational and nonsensical. I have no idea how you're even deriving this premise, because it doesn't make a lick of sense.



Hey, look, a straw man.

Try sticking to the argument at hand rather than making up new ones nobody was arguing and pretending that's a valid argument.

Nope, he literally fucking signed it.

You are the one who wants to honor intent of that man, so stick to your guns.

I am sticking to the argument, and my argument is that the man you are trying to honor literally signed and supported this... whether you like it, or not. If you want to base policy on the dreams and wishes of a guy who imprisoned Japanese Americans into concentration camps... by all means, let's fucking go there.

[downnola]

Once again, blaming me for the decisions others make...

SO, should we simply pay people more, just because they have kids? Should we have different minimum wages based on marital status and children?

Maybe there's a problem with a system that forces people to put off starting a family because the service heavy economy we live in treats those workers like sub-humans and pays them 15k a year.

[Elegiac]

I simply pushed it back in his face.

You do realise that's implicitly acknowledging its validity, right? Using something as evidence for an argument is saying that you think that evidence is valid.

[Zan15]

Once again, blaming me for the decisions others make...

SO, should we simply pay people more, just because they have kids? Should we have different minimum wages based on marital status and children?

i guess technically this country already does becuase of the tax structure of individuals vs families.
People "make more money" even with the same salary because of the additional tax write off for having a family.

Not to mention even something as simple as health insurance.

an individual making the same wage has additional compensation for single coverage. that individual does not get the diffrence that his co-worker gets for having family coverage.
His company is paying lets say 50% of the cost gives way more compensation to the person with the family coverage then they individual worker.
His company would pay something around 3-5k for his insurance and 11-12k for the family insurance even though they are both at the same wage level.

They also get more benefits from the govt for having kids and being married.

etc etc etc.

[Endus]

Nope, swing and a miss.

I'm not the one trying to wreck small businesses and drive up costs on hard-working Americans.

Why do you hate the middle class?

See how that works?

Raising the minimum wage won't do that.

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...-minimum-wage/
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/20/mini...ss-survey.html
https://edlabor.house.gov/imo/media/...nomy-FINAL.pdf
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/89...imum-wage.html
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...ll-businesses/

Remember when you pretended you wanted to be on the side of facts and evidence?

[Machismo]

Maybe there's a problem with a system that forces people to put off starting a family because the service heavy economy we live in treats those workers like sub-humans and pays them 15k a year.

This system has many problems...

I suggest you not spend money at any business that doesn't pay their employees a proper wage.

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You do realise that's implicitly acknowledging its validity, right? Using something as evidence for an argument is saying that you think that evidence is valid.

And his signing of this bill shows him to be up shit creek.

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Raising the minimum wage won't do that.

https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...-minimum-wage/
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/20/mini...ss-survey.html
https://edlabor.house.gov/imo/media/...nomy-FINAL.pdf
https://www.businessnewsdaily.com/89...imum-wage.html
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...ll-businesses/

Remember when you pretended you wanted to be on the side of facts and evidence?

Then, raise it to $100 an hour, if it won't do that.

See the problem?

But hey, at least you're off the wagon of catering to the whims of racist tyrants who died 75 years ago.

[Endus]

Then, raise it to $100 an hour, if it won't do that.

See the problem?

I see you engaging in rampantly dishonest straw man arguments that were debunked early in the thread.

If you can't make a real argument, why are you even here?

[Elegiac]

And his signing of this bill shows him to be up shit creek.

So you do acknowledge that the intent was there and the execution simply didn't meet it.

*thumbs up* Progress.