WoWpinion: Whats the opinion/argument that pisses you off the most?

[Bodakane]

Except it's the definition of p2w because it gives you an advantage over players who don't spend that $60. It doesn't need to be a huge gamebreaking thing. It just needs to be an advantage.

No. No one has an advantage. That’s 100% wrong. You really don’t understand the concepts you’re speaking about.

[TheRevenantHero]

No. No one has an advantage. That’s 100% wrong. You really don’t understand the concepts you’re speaking about.

Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

Just because you think leveling is easy doesn't mean the level boost isn't an advantage. Another player not spending the money would have to work through other parts of the game before getting to current content. Someone paying $60 gets to skip all that, therefore making it an advantage. The only person who is wrong and doesn't understand what p2w is would be you and other people saying it's not an advantage.

[arkanon]

Agreed that it’s a continuum. I’m not advocating for LFR’s removal, but raiding survived just fine for 4 expansions without it.

To me, the idea that wow would have continued sans raiding without LFR just seems really silly.

I don’t know how much it costs to make a raid but I’d be skeptical if it’s over $10 million, and it’s certainly not $100 million. Obviously this is complicated because assets are reused between different forms of the game, but again, there’s no way it’s a big number, and if you have 1 million raiders who stay subbed, you make about $100 million in revenue from those players every year just from sub and box costs. It’s very hard to come up with a combination of numbers that suggests raiding is not viable without LFR. Is it more profitable with LFR? Sure.

But don’t buy the sucker’s argument that blizzard is scraping together nickels and dimes to make a dollar here.

Sorry but all those numbers are absolutely, completely, 100% made up, therefore everything you said is entirely baseless. Blizzard have made it clear that LFR is a large factor in the justification for time dedicated to creating raids - you are gently trying to disagree, with entirely fabricated numbers. $10m? $100m? 1m players? all entirely fabricated.

If you have literally zero knowledge of the actual numbers, and your argument is strong without them, leave the numbers out. It just feels like you threw some completely random numbers down to try and bolster your argument. You are essentially attempting to say "i disagree with blizzards comments about LFR" but have literally zero evidence to support it, other than "it survived for 4 years without lfr". This comment in itself is not "wrong", but very misguided. It survived so long without it because for the most part, the raids were not far off modern LFR difficulty to begin with, and certainly didnt even come close to current normal/heroic, let alone mythic.

There also seems to be some weird idea that when we discuss the time/cost justification for raids, people seem to focus almost exclusively on assets - while ignoring the bulk of the time - planning, boss encounter design, abilities, tuning, testing etc etc.

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Every server is a no fly server if you want it to be. Just don't fly. It is that simple. No need to make a server no fly for those 47 people that don't like flying.

I believe its down to 43 now - a few moved on to other mmos.

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Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

Just because you think leveling is easy doesn't mean the level boost isn't an advantage. Another player not spending the money would have to work through other parts of the game before getting to current content. Someone paying $60 gets to skip all that, therefore making it an advantage. The only person who is wrong and doesn't understand what p2w is would be you and other people saying it's not an advantage.

I find it extremely frustrating that some people refuse to accept the reality - it absolutely is an advantage, and by definition, that makes it P2W. Now, as i have said before, that does NOT mean i am against it - im just saying how it is. Its always the same thing - cherry picked scenarios to justify it NOT being P2W, while ignoring all others. Lets present the other side of the argument:

Players 1 & 2 missed out on TBC first time around, and are very excited to try it when it comes out. They have no interest in vanilla. Launch day comes - one pays for the boost, one does not (either because they cannot afford it, or cannot justify the spend). How can anyone seriously claim the person who paid for the boost is not at an instant advantage over the other player?

People try some crazy mental gymnastics to try justify it - "oh they should just sub in prepatch and level" "the guy who cant afford it should sub a month earlier and level up!" sure, fine, but that does not change the fact that the player who is paying for a boost is at an advantage - even if the other person levels one first, this guy could do the same, then have TWO lvl 60s at launch, another advantage.

[Ringthane]

"Blizzard should listen to what the fans say."

"Flying is the only reason I still play this game. Traveling sucks."

"Casuals shouldn't be able to get (insert item here)."

And the list goes on and on.

[arkanon]

"Blizzard should listen to what the fans say."

"Flying is the only reason I still play this game. Traveling sucks."

"Casuals shouldn't be able to get (insert item here)."

And the list goes on and on.

I can honestly say i have never seen ANY of these arguments, certainly not presented in the way you present them here. I HAVE seen people say "Blizzard should listen to player feedback during beta phases" which is not a bad thing to say, considering the significant levels of feedback Blizzard have received on certain topics, only to push forward unchanged and then try to Band-Aid fix it later in the expansion - admitting the things said during beta were in fact accurate.

I have seen people say flying is a factor in their enjoyment of tedious tasks like WQ and the like, and they wished it was unlocked from day 1. I have not seen a single person say flying is the only reason they play the game.

I have seen people say rewards should match the effort and difficulty of a certain activity, but i have not seen anyone claim "casuals shouldn't be able to get XYZ"

The topics are accurate, but the way you presented them is not.

[Relapses]

"I'm not coping, but..."

[TheRevenantHero]

Sorry but all those numbers are absolutely, completely, 100% made up, therefore everything you said is entirely baseless. Blizzard have made it clear that LFR is a large factor in the justification for time dedicated to creating raids - you are gently trying to disagree, with entirely fabricated numbers. $10m? $100m? 1m players? all entirely fabricated.

If you have literally zero knowledge of the actual numbers, and your argument is strong without them, leave the numbers out. It just feels like you threw some completely random numbers down to try and bolster your argument. You are essentially attempting to say "i disagree with blizzards comments about LFR" but have literally zero evidence to support it, other than "it survived for 4 years without lfr". This comment in itself is not "wrong", but very misguided. It survived so long without it because for the most part, the raids were not far off modern LFR difficulty to begin with, and certainly didnt even come close to current normal/heroic, let alone mythic.

There also seems to be some weird idea that when we discuss the time/cost justification for raids, people seem to focus almost exclusively on assets - while ignoring the bulk of the time - planning, boss encounter design, abilities, tuning, testing etc etc.

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I believe its down to 43 now - a few moved on to other mmos.

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I find it extremely frustrating that some people refuse to accept the reality - it absolutely is an advantage, and by definition, that makes it P2W. Now, as i have said before, that does NOT mean i am against it - im just saying how it is. Its always the same thing - cherry picked scenarios to justify it NOT being P2W, while ignoring all others. Lets present the other side of the argument:

Players 1 & 2 missed out on TBC first time around, and are very excited to try it when it comes out. They have no interest in vanilla. Launch day comes - one pays for the boost, one does not (either because they cannot afford it, or cannot justify the spend). How can anyone seriously claim the person who paid for the boost is not at an instant advantage over the other player?

People try some crazy mental gymnastics to try justify it - "oh they should just sub in prepatch and level" "the guy who cant afford it should sub a month earlier and level up!" sure, fine, but that does not change the fact that the player who is paying for a boost is at an advantage - even if the other person levels one first, this guy could do the same, then have TWO lvl 60s at launch, another advantage.

Because then they would have to admit they're wrong as well as admit Blizzard is becoming more and more greedy over the years because of Activision's influence. They would rather lie or play mental gymnastics than say anything negative about Blizzard.

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"Blizzard should listen to what the fans say."

"Flying is the only reason I still play this game. Traveling sucks."

"Casuals shouldn't be able to get (insert item here)."

And the list goes on and on.

Well....traveling DOES suck in WoW. It always has.

[Soon-TM]

They would rather lie or play mental gymnastics than say anything negative about Blizzard.

Several "fans" in these boards do the same thing. And for free, go figure.

[arkanon]

The truth is that Activision was putting pressure on them to make raiding even more profitable in order to justify it, and they came up with LFR to make Activision go away.

More baseless accusations and claims presented as facts - you have absolutely NOTHING to back this up - its pure drivel. And that ridiculous word salad above does not dignify a response, because yet again you rely on entirely made up rubbish to support your "argument".

Blizzard provided some great feedback on LFR and its inclusion in the game, and you have said "no, thats a lie, and heres why: [totally made up numbers and "facts"]".

[Bodakane]

Advantage: any state, circumstance, opportunity, or means specially favorable to success, interest, or any desired end

Just because you think leveling is easy doesn't mean the level boost isn't an advantage. Another player not spending the money would have to work through other parts of the game before getting to current content. Someone paying $60 gets to skip all that, therefore making it an advantage. The only person who is wrong and doesn't understand what p2w is would be you and other people saying it's not an advantage.

Jesus christ, you are choosing to die on the stupidest hill possible.

You are not at a direct advantage over another player by boosting. You are not in competition with any player where boosting gives you an advantage. You are literally bastardizing the concept of play2win to fit your bullshit narrative.

Hearthstone is play2win. WoW is not.

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Maybe trying making an actual argument instead of just calling someone dumb? And "objectively" is one of those words that people use on the internet to sound smart but it actually means nothing and usually should just be removed from a sentence, as is true of your statement.

lol. I and numerous other people have destroyed his/her/their factually incorrect argument already, but I'm sure he/she/they super appreciates your misguided rescue attempt.

[TheRevenantHero]

Jesus christ, you are choosing to die on the stupidest hill possible.

You are not at a direct advantage over another player by boosting. You are not in competition with any player where boosting gives you an advantage. You are literally bastardizing the concept of play2win to fit your bullshit narrative.

Hearthstone is play2win. WoW is not.

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lol. I and numerous other people have destroyed his/her/their factually incorrect argument already, but I'm sure he/she/they super appreciates your misguided rescue attempt.

All right well it's clear you have no idea what P2W is so I don't know what to tell you. Also, you and nobody else have "destroyed" this point. You have used ad hominem without actually addressing the point. I even posted the definition of advantage and you disregarded instead of admitting you were wrong.

[arkanon]

Hearthstone is play2win. WoW is not.

I found the issue! P2W stands for PAY to win, not PLAY to win. Im guessing that will make you realise that if two people load up TBCC on launch day, one pays for the boost straight to 58, and the other doesnt, that one has a rather large advantage...........because they PAID.

[derekmmorgan94]

Jesus christ, you are choosing to die on the stupidest hill possible.

You are not at a direct advantage over another player by boosting. You are not in competition with any player where boosting gives you an advantage. You are literally bastardizing the concept of play2win to fit your bullshit narrative.

Hearthstone is play2win. WoW is not.

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lol. I and numerous other people have destroyed his/her/their factually incorrect argument already, but I'm sure he/she/they super appreciates your misguided rescue attempt.

Character boost is p2w. If you can't wrap your head around that how are WoW tokens not p2w? Literally all top end raiders buy gold to deck out in BOEs and there are still 2 boes that are upgrades for me... They pay to buy better gear. Which gives them advantages over players who don't pay. Hence, p2w...

[Drusin]

When people say

"you cared enough to post"

Like posting is this big ordeal and requires a damn blood sacrifice rofl

If posting is difficult for you then

[Glorious Leader]

"I'm forced to do other content because of the rewards it provides" and the tangent arguments.

[TheRevenantHero]

Another terrible opinion?

"Tinker should be the next playable class and should be restricted to ugliest, most unpopular races in the game." As if restricting a class to gnomes and goblins wouldn't be a colossal failure.

[Bodakane]

All right well it's clear you have no idea what P2W is so I don't know what to tell you. Also, you and nobody else have "destroyed" this point. You have used ad hominem without actually addressing the point. I even posted the definition of advantage and you disregarded instead of admitting you were wrong.

I found the issue! P2W stands for PAY to win, not PLAY to win. Im guessing that will make you realise that if two people load up TBCC on launch day, one pays for the boost straight to 58, and the other doesnt, that one has a rather large advantage...........because they PAID.

Character boost is p2w. If you can't wrap your head around that how are WoW tokens not p2w? Literally all top end raiders buy gold to deck out in BOEs and there are still 2 boes that are upgrades for me... They pay to buy better gear. Which gives them advantages over players who don't pay. Hence, p2w...

Yes, I meant PAY to win.

You are NOT paying to win. Pay to win in WoW would be buying high end gear. It would be paying money to have a clear advantage. Boosting levels doesn't give anyone an advantage. Me getting to level 58 instantly doesn't give me a single advantage over anyone else. You aren't achieving anything by paying for a boost.

You guys are just flat out, 100% fucking wrong. It is stupid.

Paying to win, implies beating the game or other players, through purchases. Level boost, doesn't achieve those things. If you could pay to get to a level you couldn't;t by just playing, THAT would be pay to win.

You are equating buying things in game with real money as paying to win. It's not. You'd be closer to having a point if you could buy mounts that went faster than in game earned mounts, but even that doesn't happen.

All of this is even considering that WoW a little bit ago went to a power percentage model, where a player at level 13 and a player at level 33 in the same zone has no dps/defensive difference fighting the same mob.

Again, stupid fucking hill to die on.

[Weeps]

That having a difficulty level that only caters to an extremely small percentage is good for the game.

Nope.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yes, I meant PAY to win.

You are NOT paying to win. Pay to win in WoW would be buying high end gear. It would be paying money to have a clear advantage. Boosting levels doesn't give anyone an advantage. Me getting to level 58 instantly doesn't give me a single advantage over anyone else. You aren't achieving anything by paying for a boost.

You guys are just flat out, 100% fucking wrong. It is stupid.

Paying to win, implies beating the game or other players, through purchases. Level boost, doesn't achieve those things. If you could pay to get to a level you couldn't;t by just playing, THAT would be pay to win.

You are equating buying things in game with real money as paying to win. It's not. You'd be closer to having a point if you could buy mounts that went faster than in game earned mounts, but even that doesn't happen.

All of this is even considering that WoW a little bit ago went to a power percentage model, where a player at level 13 and a player at level 33 in the same zone has no dps/defensive difference fighting the same mob.

Again, stupid fucking hill to die on.

That is NOT what pay2win is, dude. P2W is when you can use real world money to gain an advantage over players who AREN'T spending money. The only person dying on an ignorant hill is you.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/...can/pay-to-win

Paying $60 to immediately jump into content is a huge advantage over a player NOT buying that boost. Once again, you have absolutely no idea what p2w is based on all of your comments.

[Bodakane]

That is NOT what pay2win is, dude. P2W is when you can use real world money to gain an advantage over players who AREN'T spending money. The only person dying on an ignorant hill is you.

https://www.macmillandictionary.com/...can/pay-to-win

Paying $60 to immediately jump into content is a huge advantage over a player NOT buying that boost. Once again, you have absolutely no idea what p2w is based on all of your comments.

You. Don;t. Have. An. Advantage. Over. Other. Players. By. Boosting. Your. Level.

There is no definition of pay to win that supports your bullshit stance. None. Nada.

Try it from this angle, explain what advantage I have over you if I boost my level to 58 while you level.