Who can pull more M+15 damage: UHDK vs Moonkin ?

[Greengrim]

Hello guys,

I kindly ask for your assistance, to put an end to an argument we're having with some of my friends.

It's regarding UHDK vs Moonkin damage in Mythic +15 pool. We are seeing the DK pull ahead in in about 95% of the cases (a hundred runs or so), and the druid's arguments are:
1) "I have to do utility stuff"
2) "DK is an OP class"
And by "utility" you must understand Treants on CD + rarely throwing a heal/innervate/mass root.

On the other side, the DK believes that the Moonkin is underperforming and should not be doing lower damage all the time.

So who do you believe should be pulling more according to your experiences?

I've been searching for some kind of simulations or ranklists which can help us in the argument, but sadly, there's just pros/cons stuff, and simcraft's raidsims. Any help in this regard will also be highly appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Ange]

Its usually easier to perform well as UH DK with chain pulls, since you got your AoE burst every 60 seconds and pride for apo is also a good match for cooldown ussage.

As a casual UH DK player, it feels very easy to outperform moonkins in overall, I usually target a fire mage or MM hunter as competition in overall dmg.

But a tank that doesnt even pull just kite from the start is a challenge for everyone but multi-dot specs, so its possible to make just multi-dot specs shine.

I highly welcome the DH tanking nerfs this week, it should get rid of the FOTM DH tanks who dont even try to min-max group dmg and just kite 100% because they can* (could*)

[lozza]

As a main Balance Druid, who does mythics with a UH DK often its actually pretty close, sometimes i will pull ahead sometimes he will, On boss fights however i will always pull ahead as Convoke is just so strong. We both have gaps where we are using our utility, me with innervate, roots, solar beam. Him with grips, Chains, AMZ. If one is really below the other its most likely down to overall skill rather than things like needing to focus on utility.

[Temp name]

I highly welcome the DH tanking nerfs this week, it should get rid of the FOTM DH tanks who dont even try to min-max group dmg and just kite 100% because they can* (could*)

You must be misunderstanding something, it's a buff. DH tanks are getting buffed.
Look up how much magical damage a tank actually takes in a dungeon, and then realize that 10% more magic damage taken is going to do nothing, while 5% physical DR is going to do a lot.

To answer the OP though: They're roughly equal. They have different niches. Boomies delete bosses, DK's do more AoE

[Greengrim]

Its usually easier to perform well as UH DK with chain pulls, since you got your AoE burst every 60 seconds and pride for apo is also a good match for cooldown ussage.

As a casual UH DK player, it feels very easy to outperform moonkins in overall, I usually target a fire mage or MM hunter as competition in overall dmg.

But a tank that doesnt even pull just kite from the start is a challenge for everyone but multi-dot specs, so its possible to make just multi-dot specs shine.

I highly welcome the DH tanking nerfs this week, it should get rid of the FOTM DH tanks who dont even try to min-max group dmg and just kite 100% because they can* (could*)

Hmmm, well, we don't really do chain pulls. But we don't do too massive pulls either. We usually combine like 2-3 packs wherever we can (1st 3 packs in Mists, couple of packs at couple places in DoS, etc, etc). How do you think each class should be performing under these conditions?

[Ange]

How do you think each class should be performing under these conditions?

A big extended pull works very good with unholy since AoE extends into ->DT(18s) + DnD (10s) -> into Epidemic.

Its really hard to missalign pulls with short cooldowns like 60s DT / 30s DnD so UH DK might allways have something ready to pad. The tank needs to sabotage DnD uptime or something really stupid like turning cleave mobs into the melee to let the UH DK look bad.

I would not compare UH to moonkins, thats really not fair. UH competes with fire mages even if the pulls are combustion optimized.

The only downside is - its still a melee spec, so clownpulls with zero melee zones are still a thing that you dont have to deal with with a moonkin.

[Gestopft]

Hmmm, well, we don't really do chain pulls. But we don't do too massive pulls either. We usually combine like 2-3 packs wherever we can (1st 3 packs in Mists, couple of packs at couple places in DoS, etc, etc). How do you think each class should be performing under these conditions?

If you're frequently dropping combat because a) that's how you pull it or b) that's how the dungeon is laid out, I think that would give an advantage to the DK. If the Boomy is running with Treants, that means they aren't running with Nature's Balance, which means every time they enter combat they have to build up to Starfall instead of being able to have one at the very start of every pull.

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Its really hard to missalign pulls with short cooldowns like 60s DT / 30s DnD so UH DK might allways have something ready to pad.

This too. UH's frequent short CDs means not having to sit on anything.

[erifwodahs]

If boomkin can compete with UH DK - tank is not pulling enough or DK sucks.

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Hmmm, well, we don't really do chain pulls. But we don't do too massive pulls either. We usually combine like 2-3 packs wherever we can (1st 3 packs in Mists, couple of packs at couple places in DoS, etc, etc). How do you think each class should be performing under these conditions?

in those conditions is probably will be close, but then it's kinda a bummer to take UK DK, as you can have someone better to do 5/8 target AoE.

[vulfrika]

If boomkin can compete with UH DK - tank is not pulling enough or DK sucks.

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in those conditions is probably will be close, but then it's kinda a bummer to take UK DK, as you can have someone better to do 5/8 target AoE.

Or your moonkin have yet to learn to stack mastery, use Imperial Ordenance + Quantum Decive and use convoke with Celestial Allignment.

[Ange]

Also keep in mind, some dungeon routes allow Army on cooldown without missing it on bosses. Affix-weeks and dungeons with that are really really hard to counter, its just free dmg, it also works great for big pulls -> pride -> big pulls and the army is doing the important pride dmg done.

And to make it worse, the multi-dot padding like in halls, is also possible with UH epidemic, so its harder to pad solo, since the UH can just do similar useless dmg with spread cleave.

[erifwodahs]

Or your moonkin have yet to learn to stack mastery, use Imperial Ordenance + Quantum Decive and use convoke with Celestial Allignment.

Well, that's how you drop a nuke. And I have no problem with my boomkin Also I don't run a Fire mage/UH DK so I don't have to worry about actually putting them to good use. I prefer frost mages much more tbh, less dancing around and good consistent damage.

[ellieg]

Well yeah, in the dungeons right now it's a lot Magical Damage. But the 5% buff won't help them to take more physical damage that much because they eat so much if they don't kite becasue the bad design behind their active mitigation. If they still can't facetank and take more magical damage it is a nerf, even when the real damage income might be +-0. 5% less Physical won't help them at all as they eat so much.

The thing is that the buff for prot pallys and bears are that strong that they probably take over, at least next Season depending on the 10+ affix. Multiple reasons for that. They are noit that far behind anyway and can already facetank a lot in high keys while doing tons of damage, especially the prot pally. If they can facetank even more you get more values than anything else. Flamepatches from Mages, Elemental Shamans coming strong now with Earthquakes etc. Plus the even possible higher damage now from those anyway.

Dungeons are roughly 80% physical, 20% magical. Most DH are kyrian. With the bug to that trait being fixed, ots more like only a ~7% nerf to their magic damage intake. Dhs aren't gonna die when they are at range from spells being casted on them. 5% better survivability when in melee is gonna keep them on top even with other tanks getting 10%.

[Fenrys]

Its very player dependent. That being said, at a low key level (such as 15), assuming equal skill the DK should be a bit ahead. As the key level increases the pendulum starts to swing in favour of the Moonkin. As to the last poster; double on use in M+ isn't bad per se (especially on a tyr week), but generally a good passive (changeling, Sire crit trinket, pvp proc) is preferred as it requires less set up, and can't be disturbed quite as easily. For raid, EO+IQD is definitely the play.

Moonkins are certainly meta more for their insane utility in M+ rather than insane damage.

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Also keep in mind, some dungeon routes allow Army on cooldown without missing it on bosses. Affix-weeks and dungeons with that are really really hard to counter, its just free dmg, it also works great for big pulls -> pride -> big pulls and the army is doing the important pride dmg done.

And to make it worse, the multi-dot padding like in halls, is also possible with UH epidemic, so its harder to pad solo, since the UH can just do similar useless dmg with spread cleave.

This is also an important element I did not address in my post. Damage profiles vary from dungeon to dungeon, and there will be some which certainly are more suited to one rather than the other.

[vulfrika]

Well, that's how you drop a nuke. And I have no problem with my boomkin Also I don't run a Fire mage/UH DK so I don't have to worry about actually putting them to good use. I prefer frost mages much more tbh, less dancing around and good consistent damage.

That is the point. It is true that UH DK does more sustained AoE than Boomkin, but that does not matter outside of keys higher than +15.

[ellieg]

Depends on how much the other tanks can facetank now. And how much DPS the group will gain from that. As I said, Bears and Prot Pallys do that much damage already and also don't need much more healing than a DH because the possible self heal and damage absorbs are strong. Halls of Atonement is the best example, the DPS difference between the highest logs of bears/Prot Pallys and DH are already almost 4k DPS. THat's already insane. If the tanks survive longer without damage loss of the heal, in that case Prot Pally, it might be worth way more with the changes.
We will see.

The only reason I want DH to be dead is the waste amount of bad people player it because they simply don't understand when they have to kite the mobs. And 5% less damage from that will definetly not help. Because dead means dead when they play it wrong.

Id love to see a change too. Hate the kite meta and would love to go back towards more traditional kiting. Playing my eye shaman alt and it sucks getting a bunch of procs, dropping 3 earthquakes, then all the mobs walk out of it lol. Im jist not holding out hope that it will change much. Really gonna depend on community perception

[Temp name]

Well yeah, in the dungeons right now it's a lot Magical Damage. But the 5% buff won't help them to take more physical damage that much because they eat so much if they don't kite becasue the bad design behind their active mitigation. If they still can't facetank and take more magical damage it is a nerf, even when the real damage income might be +-0. 5% less Physical won't help them at all as they eat so much.

The thing is that the buff for prot pallys and bears are that strong that they probably take over, at least next Season depending on the 10+ affix. Multiple reasons for that. They are noit that far behind anyway and can already facetank a lot in high keys while doing tons of damage, especially the prot pally. If they can facetank even more you get more values than anything else. Flamepatches from Mages, Elemental Shamans coming strong now with Earthquakes etc. Plus the even possible higher damage now from those anyway.

Back to topic: Boomkin overall can perform better. But Boomkin has much more than that, their toolkit is that strong where you can help in different situation that costs damage of course, but not that much at all. DK is still good though.

Considering that roughly 70% of the damage you take in a dungeon is just melee damage..

[Accendor]

Its usually easier to perform well as UH DK with chain pulls, since you got your AoE burst every 60 seconds and pride for apo is also a good match for cooldown ussage.

As a casual UH DK player, it feels very easy to outperform moonkins in overall, I usually target a fire mage or MM hunter as competition in overall dmg.

But a tank that doesnt even pull just kite from the start is a challenge for everyone but multi-dot specs, so its possible to make just multi-dot specs shine.

I highly welcome the DH tanking nerfs this week, it should get rid of the FOTM DH tanks who dont even try to min-max group dmg and just kite 100% because they can* (could*)

They still can, basically nothing changes for them

[Lefrog]

Running nature's balance instead of treants usually puts me above unless the timing of CA/convoke is just bad due to pull speed/kill time.

On higher keys where I run less risk of wasting a good CA/convoke on trash and if bosses still die quickly enough to let my CA/convoke burst keep me top, I usually don't worry about UH DK

[SamuelRichards]

If you often give up the fight, because a) this is how you pull it or b) this is how the dungeon works, I think this will give the DC advantage. If Boomy is working with Treants, it means they are not working with Nature's Balance, which means that every time they enter a fight, they have to build up Starfall instead of being able to have it at the very beginning of every pull. Also, in addition to this game, I also love to play at Canadian online casinos, especially, I like online keno https://casinocanada.com/games/keno/ where you can not only have a great time, but also win good amounts of prize money.

[Saubon]

If you care only about dps, then DK should do more in 15 keys and honestly a lot of specs do better dps than moonkins in lower keys.

Moonkins should almost always run treants and save them for harder packs. And if you are in spires or if you skip packs druid often starts with 0 astral power