1. #2021
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    Fair enough. It would just be kind of demoralizing to know that guy gets to do 3 WQs in the time it takes you to do 1.

    But yup random BGs are the one thing I've consistently enjoyed in every expansion so being allowed to have fun in those is the one major thing I'm concerned about, and those do require gear.
    No they don't. There is no restriction. Press h and then join random bg. It's that simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    It wasn't. A lot of people make this misconception that in previous (or even earlier) expansions you had minus 10 (or any other number actually) item levels compare to the other guy, then the difference in power is roughly the same. It's not. Thanks to both item level squish and level squish.

    Quick example is, MoP (assuming similar, medium skill): did you have a chance against 545 while having 535 gear? Yes.
    Do you have a chance against 210 wearing 200 ? Unlikely.
    It has been mathematically proven to be approx 1.01 ^10 difference. You are absolutely completely wrong. It is astonishing how wrong you are
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  2. #2022
    Quote Originally Posted by SugarPunch View Post
    What will that solve? What would be the new difficulty? You want classic setting back where you snore the boss down?
    What about a difficulty that adapts to the global ilvl of the group?

    Probably a stupid idea, just came in mind and posted it XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    No they don't. There is no restriction. Press h and then join random bg. It's that simple.

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    It has been mathematically proven to be approx 1.01 ^10 difference. You are absolutely completely wrong. It is astonishing how wrong you are
    Dude he’s worried about being perma gibbed in random bgs due to low ilvl gear, of course entering them is free.

  3. #2023
    Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhh... look, theres a skill gap. Of course there is. Anyone playing 2s arena for any extended period can tell you there is. Anyone routinely running 15s versus any player stepping into mythic zero for the first time knows theres a skill gap that wont account for the sheer difference in dps. My first time in any new content involves an obvious learning period where im almost exclusively focussed on reacting to mechanics versus an experienced player predicting and preempting (building around) those same mechanics. This is a huge dps loss.

    Then, when i get good, theres multipliers at work as well. If the other 4 people are experienced, theyre in control and have awesome throughput. If they arent, fights last longer, windows diminish in value and are more likely to average out on a parse. Thats literally one multiplier.

    Lets go pvp and 1 v 1 with equal skill level and different ilvl. Well, you have available 15% extra throughput over me. But you also have 15% extra stats in defensives (heals and mitigation). Am i really just having to overcome 15% difference. Even at the most base level im not only having to deal with 15% less dps, im also having to deal with your 15% extra health. But lets not be basic. Lets get into it. I mean, my health is dropping faster, so im more prone to burn my cooldowns to deal with it, right? On top of this, your spikes are lessened allowing you to hold off on making those defensive calls. And on top of all this, i still have to burn through an extra 15% of health and mitigation.

    To think this is just about flat throughput accounting for nothing else is at best, naive. You not only have more health and damage, you also have more time to make key decisions in your use of cooldowns. I, on the other hand, HAVE to play more reactively. I have to defeat a crypto 30% increase in stats (even if its additive, which it very likely isnt through the sheer power of cooldowns), but on top of this, i have to somehow force you to make a mistake and burn your defensives (and then hope i have enough deeps to pressure you before theyre back up).

    At no point do you have to believe me. But even preach's community (i watch his stream), is pushing back on this very simple calculation. Yes, you can sim this and get a nice value. But this isnt a solo game. If i have a decent team behind me, regardless of my personal skill level, i ipso facto have more capacity to make decisions, play preemptively and er, get good.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-29 at 11:05 AM.

  4. #2024
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    That's very true. They squished the item levels but didn't bother to squish the iLvl increases.

    iLvl 1000 vs 1010 for example is quite managable.
    Let's divide that 1000 by 5 so we get to 200. Then add 10 and multiply it by 5 again and we arrive at iLvl 1050. That's quite a difference.

    After the squish the iLvl brackets should've increased by 2, not 10. The power creep is worse than ever now because of it.
    This is completely wrong. It hasn't changed since WotLK. How can you not know how it works by now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I wish they could've at least gone down to increments of 5 after the squish. The amount of power 10 iLvls results in is ridiculous, it only increases the divide between the lowest geared players and the highest geared.
    For example if heroic raids was iLvl 213 then normal could be 208 and mythic 218.
    It is not ridiculous. It's a bit more than 10% inc. The vast dif you may see is skill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  5. #2025
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    I don't know where this "exact same gear as Mythic raiders" comes from, i never said that and seriously doubt that many people want exact the same gear als mythic raiders for worldquests. But people want an item progression outside of higher raiding/M+.
    The only way this was possible was if we would increase Raid Loot by 20 ilvls, and then allow everyone else to gear to 220 from other things. And you know what will happen then? People will hit 220 and the exact same arguments will come again. "I can't progress anymore, because picking flowers only awards 220 items! Why does Raiding give 233! I want 233!"
    Please don't pretend you don't know that this is the case. Everyone playing the game has a limit to how much they can progress. Be it choice or skill based. I am close to 226 now, after months of dungeoneering and raiding, but I will never see the juicy 233 items that drop from Stone Legion and Denathrius Mythic. A mixture of not being a Mythic Raider and not having the time to progress through Mythic.

    Do you see me complaining that my progression is stopped at this point? No, because it is my choice not to participate in Mythic Raiding, just as it is the choice of the folks in this thread not to participate in group content. It's their choice and their resposibility. The game is not at fault for their decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Plus you have the problem of shitty balancing, the balancing outside of these contents is totally off because of the gear.
    See all the "Torghast is too easy/hard" threads, People with high end gear can easily solo all of it even on weaker classes, people in quest gear can't. People don't find groups for Worldbosses/Elites/Mawbosses because you can solo them with high end gear but not without. And that is bad because that is the content casuals play.
    First of all, the world adjusts around your gear and character level, so mobs are stronger if you engage them at 226 then at 200. Granted it's still pretty easy to kill them, but in a high level zone like the Maw even a highly geared character can still die if they pull stupid. Torghast recently had an Ilvl recommendation added, which tells you which floor you should try.

    But otherwise ... I mean yeah, people with higher gear have an easier time then those with lower gear... that is kind of the point of an MMO. The only way to remove this is by removing gear as a factor entirely and that is terrible.
    Not to mention that if people would be judged entirely by their skill in playing you would still see a significant divide, because the people that are sporting 226 ilvl gear now are in general better players specifically because they have applied themselves and put effort into being good enough to earn their gear.

  6. #2026
    Quote Originally Posted by splatomat View Post
    You think the average CEO of a company puts in more effort than their frontline employees, huh. LOL okay

    Plus, your analogy doesn't actually support your position. In your analogy, both the CEO and the mail room assistant progress using the same currency. The mail room assistant just does it more slowly. If both of them want to buy a fancy suit, they probably both can. One just has to save a lot longer.

    That's actually what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyles, and just does it in scale. Valor could have been that system, but was instead a half-baked mess (but then that's keeping in theme with SL entirely).
    Ahh yes. I forgot how the common person eventually works up to having a Lamborghini, a yacht, and a mansion just like the CEO. Just takes a little longer...LMAO. The "fancy suit" is the one and only nice thing he will get and that's the 235 legendary. He drives the regular car, has no boat, and lives in an average house. He will never have what the CEO has.

  7. #2027
    Damm im just here to have fun... or trying to atleast

  8. #2028
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Ahh yes. I forgot how the common person eventually works up to having a Lamborghini, a yacht, and a mansion just like the CEO. Just takes a little longer...LMAO. The "fancy suit" is the one and only nice thing he will get and that's the 235 legendary. He drives the regular car, has no boat, and lives in an average house. He will never have what the CEO has.
    Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.

  9. #2029
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.
    Then why are you on a wow forum instead of on those games? This game has been this way for 16 years. Its not going to change lol. Through casual content you earn gear that is good enough to complete said casual content. If you want gear good enough to semi afk thru casual content, you have to do harder content.

  10. #2030
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    I agree. The high end players in WoW care way too much about what everyone else has and how everyone else plays the game instead of focusing on themselves.
    Except this isn't true. Players who have gear only care about others who have gear. They only play with others that have gear. If you don't have gear they ignore you. This is pretty much geared players focusing on themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiddie View Post
    What about a difficulty that adapts to the global ilvl of the group?

    Probably a stupid idea, just came in mind and posted it XD.

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    Dude he’s worried about being perma gibbed in random bgs due to low ilvl gear, of course entering them is free.
    That's not what he said though. This is a text based conversation. You can only reply to what is typed, not what people "mean".
    Quote Originally Posted by Nizah View Post
    why so mad bro

  11. #2031
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Except this isn't true. Players who have gear only care about others who have gear. They only play with others that have gear. If you don't have gear they ignore you. This is pretty much geared players focusing on themselves.

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    That's not what he said though. This is a text based conversation. You can only reply to what is typed, not what people "mean".
    Not really its raider io now gotta get with the times.

  12. #2032
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    Then why are you on a wow forum instead of on those games? This game has been this way for 16 years.
    You must not have played for all of these 16 years then. We've had systems like that on multiple occasions and not once did I care what items what casual players were and weren't getting. I got better loot faster from raiding.
    Last edited by Echo of Soul; 2021-04-29 at 02:17 PM.

  13. #2033
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    You must not have played for all of these 16 years then. We've had systems like that on multiple occasions and not once did I care items what casual players were and weren't getting. I got better loot faster from raiding.
    I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content

  14. #2034
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.
    Well, I don't see elitist minmaxers going ape shit. I actually see people saying that they want the gear but don't want to do anything group related and calling everyone toxic elitists minmaxers. You can get 220 gear from vault after doing m+ 10, which is very easy with covenant gear. Is it ideal progression? No. But no elitist cares about that for sure. Ilvl means jack shit anyway these days rio, CR and x/10M is what matters.

  15. #2035
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content
    Casuals always had gear progression. People that cant or cannot be arsed to do harder content didnt, which is a good thing.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz cooled by Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000/CL15 @ 3200/CL14 | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | Corsair RM650x | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | DREVO Excalibur 84 | Kingston HyperX Cloud II / Samson SR850 | BenQ XL2411T + LG 24MK430H-B

  16. #2036
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderball View Post
    Casuals always had gear progression. People that cant or cannot be arsed to do harder content didnt, which is a good thing.
    I agree. I was refuting the comment about "what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyle".

  17. #2037
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I agree. I was refuting the comment about "what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyle".
    Yeah, not a knock on you. I dont find it very helpful to label people who dont have time to be hardcore (casuals) as being universally bad.
    i7-6700K @ 4.6GHz cooled by Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme | ASRock Fatal1ty Z170 Gaming K6+ | 16GB Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4-3000/CL15 @ 3200/CL14 | MSI GTX 1070 Gaming X | Corsair RM650x | Cooler Master HAF X | Logitech G400s | DREVO Excalibur 84 | Kingston HyperX Cloud II / Samson SR850 | BenQ XL2411T + LG 24MK430H-B

  18. #2038
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    Except this isn't true. Players who have gear only care about others who have gear. They only play with others that have gear. If you don't have gear they ignore you. This is pretty much geared players focusing on themselves.

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    That's not what he said though. This is a text based conversation. You can only reply to what is typed, not what people "mean".
    Yeah you missed the previous 100 pages in which he explained that XD

  19. #2039
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content
    Nobody has claimed that they did. What we had was the second best gear in the game over a long period of time.

  20. #2040
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content
    I remember getting the best piece of gear in an expansion (legendary cloak) in MoP without ever doing the "hardest content". In fact, I did it completely in LFR and solo. And every step went at a slower pace for me because I was doing it in LFR.
    Shut your goddamn mouth, Gene!

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