Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[ellieg]

Yeah, getting the same 220 cloak each week is awesome... not to mention it's once a week... kinda makes the rest of the week pointless.

You got 3, 6, 9x options in vault? All cloaks? Thats wild bro. Terrible rng. Especially every week.

Raids have 20% chance at loot. Kill 5, thats 1 piece usually.

M+ can be upped to 220 with valor, like 4 or 5 pieces with cap now.

[Soon-TM]

Thats why you have the great vault. Guaranteed item drop each week for doing the content

The only guaranteed thing of the vault is that it will drop repeated items, at least in my experience. Ah, nothing like getting 3 belts or 3 headpins

[Daedius]

One can argue then that putting in a sufficient amount of time qualifies as deserving of reward as well.

I got no problem with that, we had similar back in MoP. There's VP, but for some reason Blizz made it just for M+...

[Super Kami Dende]

but if I'm doing hard content I expect better gear from it... it's the same in single player RPGs doing the hard (often secret) bosses would net you a good item off it.

If you do "hard" content your reward is gaining better gear at a much faster rate.

[TheRevenantHero]

Heroic dungeons have the same drop rate they've always had. 1 drop per 5 ppl per boss. In a 4 boss dungeon 1 person gets a 1 drop per run 99% of the time.

For pvp, once u start getting gear higher than your rank, pvp gear is useless. Im 221 ilvl. 0 pieces of pvp gear because I didn't want to move past 1400. If I was 1600 id have 2 pieces equipped snd would maybe jump to 222. If you use the valor system and have been doing m+ or raids since the start, even 1800 is useless to you

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Thats why you have the great vault. Guaranteed item drop each week for doing the content

No they absolutely do NOT have the same drop rate. Loot drops in every pve activity was drastically reduced causing gear to be really scarce. There's been numerous threads talking about that very issue. As for pvp, you misunderstood what I was talking about. What I'm saying is that pvp is the only reliable way to get gear for pve activities right now. As I said, a pve player shouldn't be forced into pvp because drop rates in pve are incredibly low.

As for the vault, saying it's a good way to gear is asinine. It's even worse than dungeons because it can have gear from every single gear source. So it's super random. And to get anything in the vault, you have to do various activities. Said activities are barely dropping loot at all right now.

[La]

Why would a casual player care about better loot? That is to say, loot that is significantly good vs the effort required for it.

[AcidicSyn]

What do you mean not allowing meters?

~snip~
edit: jumped the gun, others already answered.

[potis]

No one cares if all players get the loot.

The problems arise when those players try to do things out of their comfort zone, or "skill zone" because they think its only about items, and things will magically die, without improving personally.

Yes, you the casual specifically reading this wont personally do it, but others will, and they are, this phenomenon happens every patch cycle after the freebie HC item level weeks and a few vault drops.

Its the same as every fresh expansion day, you have the 1% doing the Mythic dungeons (M0) with 30-40 item levels less because they are a joke, yes they might wipe once or twice to some mechanic they didnt expect to do that much damage, but overall they cleave them down.

And then you have the 99%, on your alt, 3-4 months after, trying to gear it up and the group is full of people with same ilvl of the dungeon or more and you actually wipe in an irrelevant pack cause no one else is actually doing anything properly, from DPS, to tanking, to healing.

There is a reason GearScore/Openraid/WoWProgress/Raider.io were created, Blizzard destroyed the segregation of player base by item quality literally 10 years ago, it has to exist for everyone to be happy.

And then all the excuses start and its the same vicious cycle of "Anyone better than me is a no lifer" "Anyone worst than me is bad at the game" and toxicity is created everywhere.

[AcidicSyn]

Exactly this. I've found that "true" mythic raiders, i.e. those in the top 100 guilds or so, really don't give a flying !@#$ about what others are doing in game, or how the !@#$ they are gearing their toons up. The "prestige" talk comes mostly from the tryhards who can barely beat the raid after it has been slammed with the nerf bat several times.

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My take is that it is due to the game being overall quite easy. Devs just throw a bone to the tiny % of hardcore players, but don't structure the whole game around them - i.e. exactly the opposite of what WoW does. All in all, FFXIV is a very fine game, it's just that its aesthetics just don't work with me

Is it the cat people? It's the cat people isn't it.

[ellieg]

No they absolutely do NOT have the same drop rate. Loot drops in every pve activity was drastically reduced causing gear to be really scarce. There's been numerous threads talking about that very issue. As for pvp, you misunderstood what I was talking about. What I'm saying is that pvp is the only reliable way to get gear for pve activities right now. As I said, a pve player shouldn't be forced into pvp because drop rates in pve are incredibly low.

As for the vault, saying it's a good way to gear is asinine. It's even worse than dungeons because it can have gear from every single gear source. So it's super random. And to get anything in the vault, you have to do various activities. Said activities are barely dropping loot at all right now.

That is incorrect. The loot changes this xpac were lower drop rate in raids. And 1 guaranteed drop in m+, + 1 for timing. Recently changed to 1 guaranteed, and the 2nd piece is same ilvl if timed, or 1 tier lower (-3 or -4) if untimed.

Normal, heroic, and m0 dungeons were not changed. You can Google anything you like and I can guarantee any loot changes you see for dungeons in shadowlands is only for m+.

To reiterate, only m+ dungeons received quantity of loot changes in dungeons (raids too), but not normal heroics or m0.

Considering 90% of my gear came from vault, im gonna disagree on that one. Its slow, ~1 piece a week. Can get screwed by rng but some protection by unlocking multiple options

[fathom81]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Do skilled player act like that? Skilled player have finished CE months ago and wait for next patch, they dont care for loot, they care for progress and doing bosses before everyone else does it when theres nerfs.

[TheRevenantHero]

That is incorrect. The loot changes this xpac were lower drop rate in raids. And 1 guaranteed drop in m+, + 1 for timing. Recently changed to 1 guaranteed, and the 2nd piece is same ilvl if timed, or 1 tier lower (-3 or -4) if untimed.

Normal, heroic, and m0 dungeons were not changed. You can Google anything you like and I can guarantee any loot changes you see for dungeons in shadowlands is only for m+.

To reiterate, only m+ dungeons received quantity of loot changes in dungeons (raids too), but not normal heroics or m0.

No, you're the one that is incorrect. Blizzard drastically reduced drop rates in ALL pve activities. So dungeons, raids, and mythic+ all had their drop rates reduced. It's caused a lot of people to go several dungeons or raid clears without getting even one piece of gear. And I'll say this again, the only truly reliable way to get gear is pvp. All other avenues scarcely drop loot.

[ellieg]

No, you're the one that is incorrect. Blizzard drastically reduced drop rates in ALL pve activities. So dungeons, raids, and mythic+ all had their drop rates reduced. It's caused a lot of people to go several dungeons or raid clears without getting even one piece of gear. And I'll say this again, the only truly reliable way to get gear is pvp. All other avenues scarcely drop loot.

Link me one article talking about normal or heroic dungeons dropping less loot. Literally 1 article. Every thing about dungeons dropping less loot is either talking about the change to m+, or the removal of titanforging.

You
Are
Wrong

[Sialina]

Gear is simply part of the reward structure. Blizzard has a few things to reward you with, they have gear, transmog, mounts, pets and titles.
Usually gear is the most tempting one, and I don't think it's because you "stomp noobs" but because you progress your character. Suddenly that world quest feels easier, you are stronger compared to that one boss that gave you trouble 3 weeks back etc. Single player RPGs also use this system, you gear up and find better weapons in most games.

Transmog mounts pets and titles are harder to get right as rewards, just taking myself here but I play with titles turned off, I don't like the clutter, and because of that I have no idea what the nice titles are. Mounts pets and transmog all suffer from a different problem, they are very subjective, some people find certain mounts amazing, while others wouldn't ride them to save their lives. Transmog is in the same boat, look at any thread when they release new gear sets, you will, most of the time see both people saying "They finally designed a good set for my class!" and people saying "This is the worst set ever for my class!" While talking about the same gear.

This is why gear is such a good reward, if you do 1% more damage with your new pants, you do 1% more damage, nothing subjective here, 50 is always more than 49.

Giving out gear too fast however makes the game boring because you reach that level of "Ok, I'm 90% of the way to maxed out, took me a week, no way I'm spending 15 weeks to gain the last 10%" Look at Diablo3 as an example, it absolutely showers you in gear, day2 you will be close to greater rift 100, but to reach greater rift 130 or so you'll need to put in several weeks of grinding.

I think wow is fair in the way it hands out gear, if you are a very good player, you will get your 226 gear fast, if you are medium you will get there but a bit slower, if you are on the lower end of the scale you might not reach 226, but if you do your best, you could reach 220 at least, most of the way there.

[chiddie]

Heroic dungeons have the same drop rate they've always had. 1 drop per 5 ppl per boss. In a 4 boss dungeon 1 person gets a 1 drop per run 99% of the time.

For pvp, once u start getting gear higher than your rank, pvp gear is useless. Im 221 ilvl. 0 pieces of pvp gear because I didn't want to move past 1400. If I was 1600 id have 2 pieces equipped snd would maybe jump to 222. If you use the valor system and have been doing m+ or raids since the start, even 1800 is useless to you

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Thats why you have the great vault. Guaranteed item drop each week for doing the content

But you are not guaranteed the item in the vault it’s not a duplicate or something you already have. If you only rely on vault, by the time you cap the actual ilvl the season has ended since ages.

I have guildies that are trashing vault items for the 4th week in a row. This system is crappy.

Not only you do have to do the content (which is fine), you have to do TONS of it AND be lucky too.

[ellieg]

But you are not guaranteed the item in the vault it’s not a duplicate or something you already have. If you only rely on vault, by the time you cap the actual ilvl the season has ended since ages.

I have guildies that are trashing vault items for the 4th week in a row. This system is crappy.

Not only you do have to do the content (which is fine), you have to do tons of it AND be lucky too.

If you are unlocking 3 m+ options weekly, you will get an ilvl upgrade most weeks. While grinding up, I was only doing 1 or 2 options. Since I was completing higher m+ than previous week, the drop was guaranteed to be an upgrade in every slot but leggo. Since doing 14+ every week, I usually shoot for 2+ options. There are weeks that I don't get an upgrade, such as this week, but thats to be expected since I'm 221 ilvl.

Bad rng sucks, but if you consistently have 3+ options, the system works pretty well. Might not be best stats, might only be 3 ilvl upgrade, but upgrades are plenty. When combined with valor, anyone who takes m+ semi seriously is all but guaranteed to be 220+ before season ends.

If only doing 1 content, don't expect to be 226 ilvl.

[Rageadon]

You dont stomp people cause of gear on 1500 rating cause all of them have shit gear, neither on 2400 cause both parties have good gear most of the times, again this isnt a gear issue, the argument is dumb xd

did 30 games today with a geared friend, he was able to win 2 games, rest of them i died, longest i lived was 20sec, so yeah dumb argument right ?

[AcidicSyn]

They are just moving the goal posts - they probably exist, but i have not seen a single person claim "casuals" shouldn't get any gear beyond leveling gear. I HAVE seen people say "if you want mythic raid gear, go raid mythic". And i absolutely have seen people say I dont want to do mythic, but i should be able to get the same gear and same ilvl".

I have advocated for years for a causal gearing path - something that better suits the way they play the game. If a player typically gets gear from WQ, they can use WQ to work towards a set with bonuses that do things like increase mounted speed, remove dismounting, faster hearth or second hearth - etc etc - things that directly benefit them in their chosen gameplay path. This I am all for, and as i said, have pushed for since god knows when, even though i wasnt playing causally.

That last bit is actually a cool idea. What item level would you tack onto this path? equal to other paths and just have the bonuses be different? Slightly lower ilevel? Much lower ilevel?

I've always liked the idea of separate progression paths for different playstyles. I'd pose the same question to you that I often get myself when making similar suggestions:

Say there is this "world content/WQ" path.

Player X is progressing along this path.
Player Y is a mythic raider.
Both play with war mode enabled.
assume both players have progressed an equivalent amount along their respective paths with regard to effort vs reward ratios.

Player X and Player Y encounter eachother out in the world, doing world quests. Should Player X have an advantage over Player Y within the context of "their turf"?

Swap Player Y with Player Z; an arena player- same question.

The most common response I see to this scenario is: Player X should not have an advantage, ever, under these conditions.
More rarely, I see: Each player should have an advantage within their respective realms of expertise.

[Frozenbro]

did 30 games today with a geared friend, he was able to win 2 games, rest of them i died, longest i lived was 20sec, so yeah dumb argument right ?

I mean, 4 months into the patch you really expect to find people on greens mostly on arenas? or mostly people with some gear already thanks to great vault or other arena brackets? xd i think the later is the most likely to happen, maaaaaaybe, and again, the argument is still dumb, you still can die on 2k+ rating within 20 secs and everyone is geared up there, and this is because of how the specs are designed, not cause gear, hence why the argument is dumb, can you drop this.

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That last bit is actually a cool idea. What item level would you tack onto this path? equal to other paths and just have the bonuses be different? Slightly lower ilevel? Much lower ilevel?

I've always liked the idea of separate progression paths for different playstyles.

In this case, the path would need to be worse than any of the 3 existing ones for the simple reason that you cant make this new path better than raid, pvp or m+ for obvious reasons, but theres no reason for it to not exist.

[Tinary]

Link me one article talking about normal or heroic dungeons dropping less loot. Literally 1 article. Every thing about dungeons dropping less loot is either talking about the change to m+, or the removal of titanforging.

You
Are
Wrong

While I dont mean to butt in but:

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot,” we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades. (https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ables/652040/5)

Also in their initial talk about removing warforge/titanforge they posted a % of how much the loot is reduced in dungeons and in raids. That did include heroic dungeons and normal dungeons. I think it was like 30% for raids and 25% for dungeons or sthing like this.