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  1. #1221
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    SNIP
    Again, you are saying "i cant do this, ill just get destroyed, i cant do that, its too toxic" and yet you have not played SL at all - you are only listening to one small segment of feedback, and ignoring the feedback from multiple people in this thread telling you that you are mistaken, and that everything you want to do CAN be done in SL. You have access to more gear than ever, better quality than ever, and with the least amount of effort compared to ANY first tier in wows history.

    You want to progress purely solo? You can obtain an ilvl equivalent to someone ready to start Heroic raids - eg someone who has farmed every item in normal mode raid - this has NEVER been the case in wow. You say you wont have anything to do after that, but again this simply is not true - you have said you loved heroics in previous expansions - good news - those still exist, and they are easier than ever. Gear not good enough? dont worry, you have your 197 covenant set, and you can do M0 which is the new equivalent to a heroic dungeon - about the same difficulty. (imo, they should completely remove +0, and just make heroic fill that spot).

    There are some who love instanced race-track based racing games - that's totally fine, but you cant play Forza Horizon (an "open world" racer) and then complain its not something different. You might love tactical, sim type shooters, but you cant play GTAV and then complain that it isnt a tactical shooter. And you shouldn't play wow, a massively multiplayer game, and then complain that all the good stuff requires participation in multiplayer activities.

    Here is a slightly different perspective - I love the idea of Warzone - but i find it a bit too sweaty and competitive for my tastes these days - so I don't play it, i play ghost recon with friends in coop. We didn't flood the CoD forums requesting a solo / coop scene be introduced that also provided all weapons and attachments - we simply found a game that better suited our personal expectations of a shooter. And even then, when playing that game or Division 2 (for example) i dont look up the best players doing the hardest content and say "but thats not fair, i want their same loot, but i want it for just running around in the world doing easy solo content on the lowest difficulty" - people keep saying "hardcore players shouldn't care what casuals have!" but refuse to accept the counter argument of "casuals shouldnt care what hardcore players have!".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'm not entirely sure I'd be welcomed in Classic either, as someone who would just want to have fun, see Naxx, and not stress over the world buff meta. A problem Blizz should have fixed but instead recently decided to wholeheartedly endorse. This thread does not give me any hope at all.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...in-max-culture
    FYI, I would avoid classic if i was you. Not because it is inherently more or less toxic than retail, but because you seem intent on focusing on the negativity and ignoring all the good stuff. Myself and many friends have completed all pve content in classic, without ever joining a major guild or being competitive or worrying about "metas" and WB and all that jazz. Is it a part of the community? yeah, absolutely, but is it representative of ALL raiders and players of classic? Nah, absolutely not. We found a small group of friends and with friends of friends, ran a "community" (as it would be called in retail) of raiders who operated on an drop in / drop out system where it was essentially first online first in raid. We usually had 50-60 online and if someone wanted to leave, they left and were replaced. Sometimes we pugged, sometimes we didnt. Classic is so unbelievably easy, it really doesnt matter at all. Did we have a chance at any competitive times? HELL NO! not a chance, seriously not even close. Did we casually rock up once in a while and clear some raids in sub par times while having a laugh? Yeah, absolutely.

    But as you can see, this is required socializing and communicating, building relationships, and maintaining them, and obviously it required a lot of group content and teamwork. And, as such, even with the dramatically reduced difficulty, I cant recommend classic to you.

  2. #1222
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    snip
    If I understand right, he really isn't asking for much, unlike the OP who seemed to want 226 from doing WQs(). If I remember my badges and costs right, it took 30 days of doing random heroics EVERY DAY without fail to buy ONE piece of 251 baseline T10 from Frost badges, assuming it cost 60 Frost badges, and that wasn't even the really good pieces. There were 264 offpieces as well that cost about the same, but the trinkets generally sucked compared to raid drops. While a raider would have cleared ICC on 2 difficulties, 10 man and 25 man, 12 bosses, 2 badges from each boss, so 48 Frost badges a week plus those from daily heroics, making a raider get 62 Frost badges from one WEEK of ICC and random heroics, another 5(???) if you do the "X must die!" weekly raid quest. There was another 2-5 Frost or something small from a quest inside ICC itself.

    On top of that, the raider would have killed 24 bosses in that week, likely minimum 12 and up to 24 with relevant loot (10H/25N/25H). So in the WotLK model, there is still a large gap between a super casual and a hardcore/group using but competent raider. And in the 5 mans in ICC patch, you could buy a Battered Hilt with gold and get a 251 weapon from semi-solo play, though some parts of the chain required a dungeon group to complete.

    To me the modern idea for designing WoW is especially strange because WoW used to be the more casual option, and now it's not nearly as much with FFXIV and ESO etc out there. Usually WoW makes itself stand out by copying things that work from other competitors, but doing them well.
    Last edited by Freedom; 2021-04-07 at 10:12 PM.
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    Ok, I give up. This is pointless.
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  3. #1223
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    If I understand right, he really isn't asking for much
    All I'm asking for is to be able to reach a gear level where I won't be total food to everyone I met in warmode and in a random battleground. 200 gear would get me ripped apart by a 226 as it stands from what I hear, and I'd probably get yelled at by my own faction for taking up a slot in that case too.

    If it were like BC through (I think) WoD, with the 200 gear having a special stat on it that protected me from 226 PvE champions, I'd be totally fine with that too. Or at the very least put my 200 geared self in a battleground with other 200 geared folks.
    Last edited by Tadkins; 2021-04-07 at 10:19 PM.

  4. #1224
    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
    If I understand right, he really isn't asking for much, unlike the OP who seemed to want 226 from doing WQs(). If I remember my badges and costs right, it took 30 days of doing random heroics EVERY DAY without fail to buy ONE piece of 251 baseline T10 from Frost badges, assuming it cost 60 Frost badges, and that wasn't even the really good pieces. There were 264 offpieces as well that cost about the same, but the trinkets generally sucked compared to raid drops. While a raider would have cleared ICC on 2 difficulties, 10 man and 25 man, 12 bosses, 2 badges from each boss, so 48 Frost badges a week plus those from daily heroics, making a raider get 62 Frost badges from one WEEK of ICC and random heroics, another 5(???) if you do the "X must die!" weekly raid quest. There was another 2-5 Frost or something small from a quest inside ICC itself.

    On top of that, the raider would have killed 24 bosses in that week, likely minimum 12 and up to 24 with relevant loot (10H/25N/25H). So in the WotLK model, there is still a large gap between a super casual and a hardcore/group using but competent raider. And in the 5 mans in ICC patch, you could buy a Battered Hilt with gold and get a 251 weapon from semi-solo play, though some parts of the chain required a dungeon group to complete.
    And to be clear - multiple times in this thread alone I have said I want solo players to have something to work towards, and I think the covenant armor was poorly implemented. Its EXTREMELY simple and fast to acquire, but more than that, it was beyond a joke to upgrade straight to 197 - rather than simple currency upgrades I would have liked to see it linked to quest chains or certain activities that a solo player can complete, requiring more effort and time, but in theory, feeling a little more rewarding than "oh yeah, im renown 30 now - might as well right click 25 times to get my full set of 197 armor!".

    And to your other points regarding how "easy and fast" it was for "solo" players to gear up, there seems to be a serious case of rose tinted glasses going on with a LOT of people - something you are immune to, it would seem. People seem to "remember" spending a couple of weeks causally queuing for easy heroics and getting a full set of max level raid gear - this was never the case, and was never further from the truth than the first patch of an expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    All I'm asking for is to be able to reach a gear level where I won't be total food to everyone I met in warmode and in a random battleground. 200 gear would get me ripped apart by a 226 as it stands from what I hear, and I'd probably get yelled at by my own faction for taking up a slot in that case too.

    If it were like BC through (I think) MoP, with the 200 gear having a special stat on it that protected me from 226 PvE champions, I'd be totally fine with that too. Or at the very least put my 200 geared self in a battleground with other 200 geared folks.
    No, you are wrong again - you are looking at this all wrong - first, no one is going to be angry at you for "taking up a slot" - this just isnt based in reality at all. You will stand EXACTLY the same chance against a 226 now as you would have with resil, because the 226 would have substantially more resil than you anyway - this is something you keep ignoring. And currently, if you face a purely pve geared character and you are purely pvp geared, you will have substantially more Vers than they will.

    This stuff you talk about just isnt based in reality, and you would know that if you stopped desperately trying to find the negatives in things and just played the game, or opened your mind a little and read some of the substantial feedback in this thread telling you its fine, youll be fine, nothing has changed.

    You have ALWAYS faced more geared characters in BGs - nothing has changed.
    Raiders have ALWAYS had superior gear to non raiders - nothing has changed.

    You seem to have this wierd fantasy where 226 geared characters are queuing for random bgs en masse to flex all over everyone - and that a solo 226 will dominate an entire bg and there is nothing anyone can do about it - this is absolutely not the case. You say you wont stand a chance in a 1v1 against a BiS geared player - no, probably not, but that has always been the case, and always will be. Thankfully, Blizzard do not balance their game around 1v1, and 1v1 encounters are not very common in BGs. Interestingly, the only time they DO occur is when you are off by yourself, which usually means 1 of 2 things - you are doing something you shouldnt be, and are not really helping your team at all, or you have been jumped while traveling from node to node - this has always happened.

    We keep telling you your fears are not based in reality, and that even i have a blast on my sad little 165 warrior in random bgs - its absolutely fine.
    Last edited by arkanon; 2021-04-07 at 10:26 PM.

  5. #1225
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    And to be clear - multiple times in this thread alone I have said I want solo players to have something to work towards, and I think the covenant armor was poorly implemented. Its EXTREMELY simple and fast to acquire, but more than that, it was beyond a joke to upgrade straight to 197 - rather than simple currency upgrades I would have liked to see it linked to quest chains or certain activities that a solo player can complete, requiring more effort and time, but in theory, feeling a little more rewarding than "oh yeah, im renown 30 now - might as well right click 25 times to get my full set of 197 armor!".

    And to your other points regarding how "easy and fast" it was for "solo" players to gear up, there seems to be a serious case of rose tinted glasses going on with a LOT of people - something you are immune to, it would seem. People seem to "remember" spending a couple of weeks causally queuing for easy heroics and getting a full set of max level raid gear - this was never the case, and was never further from the truth than the first patch of an expansion.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, you are wrong again - you are looking at this all wrong - first, no one is going to be angry at you for "taking up a slot" - this just isnt based in reality at all. You will stand EXACTLY the same chance against a 226 now as you would have with resil, because the 226 would have substantially more resil than you anyway - this is something you keep ignoring. And currently, if you face a purely pve geared character and you are purely pvp geared, you will have substantially more Vers than they will.

    This stuff you talk about just isnt based in reality, and you would know that if you stopped desperately trying to find the negatives in things and just played the game, or opened your mind a little and read some of the substantial feedback in this thread telling you its fine, youll be fine, nothing has changed.

    You have ALWAYS faced more geared characters in BGs - nothing has changed.
    Raiders have ALWAYS had superior gear to non raiders - nothing has changed.

    You seem to have this wierd fantasy where 226 geared characters are queuing for random bgs en masse to flex all over everyone - and that a solo 226 will dominate an entire bg and there is nothing anyone can do about it - this is absolutely not the case. You say you wont stand a chance in a 1v1 against a BiS geared player - no, probably not, but that has always been the case, and always will be. Thankfully, Blizzard do not balance their game around 1v1, and 1v1 encounters are not very common in BGs. Interestingly, the only time they DO occur is when you are off by yourself, which usually means 1 of 2 things - you are doing something you shouldnt be, and are not really helping your team at all, or you have been jumped while traveling from node to node - this has always happened.

    We keep telling you your fears are not based in reality, and that even i have a blast on my sad little 165 warrior in random bgs - its absolutely fine.
    I get what you're saying, but you seem to be missing the point that while gear should reflect skill and level of difficulty, there are too many difficulties and too much disparity between the ilvls. 200 gear is totally fine for a casual, hell, maybe it's even above what they should have. I can even agree with your opinion it's too easy to obtain from covenants, meaning they hit their "cap" faster and have nothing strive towards for any duration of the game. All that said, I think either normal or heroic raids should be removed (or merged together for a medium difficulty), LFR should be mog gear only, and that mythic gear, rated PvP gear, and mythic+ gear should cap out at a lower ilvl as well. Instead of having 20+ ilvl swings between players, you have 10-15. A notable difference in performance, but a less severe variance all the same. I point to BC/Wrath eras of gearing up in both PvE and PvP. Casuals had ways of keeping up (though it was a much greater time sink, which is probably a good thing if they want people playing towards a goal) without ever threatening to overshadow raiders or pvpers. Jumping in a bg with honor gear vs arena gear wasn't *as* much of a pain because the ilvls were less than 15 apart from blues to purps, or season 1 to season 2, etc. Going from Karazhan to Gruuls or SSC wasn't some massive swing in gear levels. Hell, the current model for a single tier covering 45 ilvls worth of gear is the reason why "old content" (meaning raids that aren't current in a patch's lifecycle) are abandoned.

    On a side note, I do believe I am done with WoW until something changes in the lore. I'm a roleplayer and get into the story and world building (PvP being my go-to game mode for WoW at least) and the last several expansions have slowly killed my love for the game with SL being the nail in the coffin.

  6. #1226
    Quote Originally Posted by Dazmalak View Post
    I get what you're saying, but you seem to be missing the point that while gear should reflect skill and level of difficulty, there are too many difficulties and too much disparity between the ilvls. 200 gear is totally fine for a casual, hell, maybe it's even above what they should have. I can even agree with your opinion it's too easy to obtain from covenants, meaning they hit their "cap" faster and have nothing strive towards for any duration of the game. All that said, I think either normal or heroic raids should be removed (or merged together for a medium difficulty), LFR should be mog gear only, and that mythic gear, rated PvP gear, and mythic+ gear should cap out at a lower ilvl as well. Instead of having 20+ ilvl swings between players, you have 10-15. A notable difference in performance, but a less severe variance all the same. I point to BC/Wrath eras of gearing up in both PvE and PvP. Casuals had ways of keeping up (though it was a much greater time sink, which is probably a good thing if they want people playing towards a goal) without ever threatening to overshadow raiders or pvpers. Jumping in a bg with honor gear vs arena gear wasn't *as* much of a pain because the ilvls were less than 15 apart from blues to purps, or season 1 to season 2, etc. Going from Karazhan to Gruuls or SSC wasn't some massive swing in gear levels. Hell, the current model for a single tier covering 45 ilvls worth of gear is the reason why "old content" (meaning raids that aren't current in a patch's lifecycle) are abandoned.

    On a side note, I do believe I am done with WoW until something changes in the lore. I'm a roleplayer and get into the story and world building (PvP being my go-to game mode for WoW at least) and the last several expansions have slowly killed my love for the game with SL being the nail in the coffin.
    I dont disagree that they should look into the number of difficulties - and would agree that a merging of normal and heroic is the "logical" way to go. I say that because mythic raiders, loot aside, seem happy with the difficulty of "their" content. My concern is if you merge heroic and normal, the only logical way to do the difficulty is to make it mostly the same as normal, with the last few bosses being equivalent to heroic. I say that because making it all the same as heroic would alienate all normal mode raiders, and I believe an overall reduction in difficulty would be viewed more positively, especially since mythic exists. If made harder, i dont see a lot of normal mode raiding guilds saying "oh well, I guess we just do LFR now", while i could see some heroic raiders saying "lets try this new difficulty out, and if its too easy, maybe its time we stepped into mythic".

    I have said the same about dungeons as well, with heroic being entirely obsolete. Basically remove heroic entirely, and rename M+0 to Heroic - seems logical to me, i honestly believe anyone who can clear a heroic can clear a mythic0

  7. #1227
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I dont disagree that they should look into the number of difficulties - and would agree that a merging of normal and heroic is the "logical" way to go. I say that because mythic raiders, loot aside, seem happy with the difficulty of "their" content. My concern is if you merge heroic and normal, the only logical way to do the difficulty is to make it mostly the same as normal, with the last few bosses being equivalent to heroic. I say that because making it all the same as heroic would alienate all normal mode raiders, and I believe an overall reduction in difficulty would be viewed more positively, especially since mythic exists. If made harder, i dont see a lot of normal mode raiding guilds saying "oh well, I guess we just do LFR now", while i could see some heroic raiders saying "lets try this new difficulty out, and if its too easy, maybe its time we stepped into mythic".

    I have said the same about dungeons as well, with heroic being entirely obsolete. Basically remove heroic entirely, and rename M+0 to Heroic - seems logical to me, i honestly believe anyone who can clear a heroic can clear a mythic0
    Yeah, agreed on the dungeons as well. Heroic is hardly different from normal as it stands anyway.

    I wonder if a system for mythic+ that could work is having the bosses drop or have a completion reward that gives you essentially an ilvl booster for any dungeon gear you own that reflects the key you ran. Mythic+4 nets you a 4ilvl boost token, mythic+10 nets you a 10 ilvl boost token , etc. I could be wrong, but it could be an incentive to always run base level "mythic" (as you described it replacing heroic) for people to collect the gear, then move on to mythic+ to upgrade it. Idk, just a thought. May require limiting runs or offering incentives to do anything other than the "easy" or "fastest" run over and over.

    In regards to raids, I think the old style of "easy bosses first that gradually ramp up in challenge" worked well enough. Nothing is perfect, but I would take it over what we currently have.

  8. #1228
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo of Soul View Post
    Or the handful of casuals that were still subscribed remembered that FFXIV existed and jumped ship. There's a reason that FFXIV subs have increased by ~150% since Shadowlands launched even though the game is in a lull between expansions, that place is casual heaven and elitist minmaxers can gtfo. The exact opposite of WoW.
    And im supposed to be offended by that? xd not even a nice try, have fun in FFXIV for all i care, your titanforging isnt coming back as your gearing god.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    No, you are wrong again - you are looking at this all wrong - first, no one is going to be angry at you for "taking up a slot" - this just isnt based in reality at all.
    Hes not gonna answer to you, this thread is his victim play heaven, notice how he only answers the people that agree with him xd even though he continues spouting lies and missinfo based on his nonexistant experience since he doesnt even play the game, but people continue to be baited by his "oh i cant play the game im just sitting on the graveyard in random bgs" yeah the imaginary graveyard in his head maybe, im sure in the bgs that happen in his head he faces full teams of 226 ilvl people while hes 190 imagination is strong after all.

  9. #1229
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost controller View Post
    I think the idea is for rewards to match the difficulty and barring RBGs you can argue it has never been closer to that. The issue now seems to be with drop rates rather then actual power items offer.

    Making a weird argument that the games progression system should be busted because you do a lot of world quests doesn't make sense to me. A mythic 15 takes the same amount or close to the same amount of time as a mythic 0. If people honestly cared about making the game more casual this thread would be tearing to blizzard about time gating legendary items and conduit upgrades.
    I swear to god yesterday you quoted a completely different post. I think i must be going mad?

    Okay, then i can address this more accurately (instead of getting uppity about the word 'busted'.).

    First up, the obvious aim here is to open up access to systems rather than dramatically alter the reward structure within them. Perhaps the great vault opening up to honor and callings is a bit much, but it really should be opened up to TC. It has a stated (by blizzard) gear expectation level. This implies a base difficulty level. As such it should offer rewards in keeping with that challenge. Plus, wouldnt it be nice having more people using the great vault and getting stoked to see whats in it each week? The great vault might be THE defining progression system in this expansion. Arguably you'd want as many of your playerbase engaging with it as possible.

    As for the rest, as i say, the point is access. Its not replacement or nerfing the current progression system or challenges. Just take valor for example. Why not look for ways to give players a base item (however its done - tc drops? put it on venari's list of stygia items (now we can encourage players to bother with the maw), drops from callings...). THEN let players decide how they want to farm the currency for it. If they choose the absolute worst and slowest way to gain valor, (callings), then hey, thats on them. Not to mention they're kinda scuppered by HAVING to do mythic plus if they want to upgrade it beyond 200ilvl. But the point here is that we give them a reason to be invested in the system. At the cost of a "free" 184ilvl (13 ilvls below their current gear) upgradeable mythic piece of gear they have a reason to care about valor. They also have a reason to think... hmmm... maybe i could get keystone conqueror? Because they kinda want to upgrade those items just a bit more.

    All we did in this example is give them a reason to participate in the system by flipping the rewards around (a base item with the potential for upgrades vs a valor drop). We havent broken any current progression systems. We've just made it more attractive. Indeed, it could be argued that by tying these to stygia or twisting corridors (for example) we've also helped improve the integration of the various systems in game and given players more reasons to engage with them.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-08 at 01:38 AM.

  10. #1230
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I swear to god yesterday you quoted a completely different post. I think i must be going mad?

    Okay, then i can address this more accurately (instead of getting uppity about the word 'busted'.).

    First up, the obvious aim here is to open up access to systems rather than dramatically alter the reward structure within them. Perhaps the great vault opening up to honor and callings is a bit much, but it really should be opened up to TC. It has a stated (by blizzard) gear expectation level. This implies a base difficulty level. As such it should offer rewards in keeping with that challenge. Plus, wouldnt it be nice having more people using the great vault and getting stoked to see whats in it each week? The great vault might be THE defining progression system in this expansion. Arguably you'd want as many of your playerbase engaging with it as possible.

    As for the rest, as i say, the point is access. Its not replacement or nerfing the current progression system or challenges. Just take valor for example. Why not look for ways to give players a base item (however its done - tc drops? put it on venari's list of stygia items (now we can encourage players to bother with the maw), drops from callings...). THEN let players decide how they want to farm the currency for it. If they choose the absolute worst and slowest way to gain valor, (callings), then hey, thats on them. Not to mention they're kinda scuppered by HAVING to do mythic plus if they want to upgrade it beyond 200ilvl. But the point here is that we give them a reason to be invested in the system. At the cost of a "free" 184ilvl (13 ilvls below their current gear) upgradeable mythic piece of gear they have a reason to care about valor. They also have a reason to think... hmmm... maybe i could get keystone conqueror? Because they kinda want to upgrade those items just a bit more.

    All we did in this example is give them a reason to participate in the system by flipping the rewards around (a base item with the potential for upgrades vs a valor drop requiring players enter mythic dungeons and the LFG system to find the items to make it relevant). We havent broken any current progression systems. We've just made it more attractive (and also, lets say with throwing them on venari or in twisting corridors, sorely added rewards to one or both of these making both torghast and the maw attractive to a wider playerbase and/or alts). In fact, we've kind of improved the integration of the various systems.
    Just to be clear - in your suggested system, the player would still be required to do M+ to upgrade the item beyond the current ilvl "cap"? Because thats exactly what the complainants do NOT want. - maybe i am misinterpreting something here, its an awful lot of words.

  11. #1231
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    I swear to god yesterday you quoted a completely different post. I think i must be going mad?

    Okay, then i can address this more accurately (instead of getting uppity about the word 'busted'.).

    First up, the obvious aim here is to open up access to systems rather than dramatically alter the reward structure within them. Perhaps the great vault opening up to honor and callings is a bit much, but it really should be opened up to TC. It has a stated (by blizzard) gear expectation level. This implies a base difficulty level. As such it should offer rewards in keeping with that challenge. Plus, wouldnt it be nice having more people using the great vault and getting stoked to see whats in it each week? The great vault might be THE defining progression system in this expansion. Arguably you'd want as many of your playerbase engaging with it as possible.

    As for the rest, as i say, the point is access. Its not replacement or nerfing the current progression system or challenges. Just take valor for example. Why not look for ways to give players a base item (however its done - tc drops? put it on venari's list of stygia items (now we can encourage players to bother with the maw), drops from callings...). THEN let players decide how they want to farm the currency for it. If they choose the absolute worst and slowest way to gain valor, (callings), then hey, thats on them. Not to mention they're kinda scuppered by HAVING to do mythic plus if they want to upgrade it beyond 200ilvl. But the point here is that we give them a reason to be invested in the system. At the cost of a "free" 184ilvl (13 ilvls below their current gear) upgradeable mythic piece of gear they have a reason to care about valor. They also have a reason to think... hmmm... maybe i could get keystone conqueror? Because they kinda want to upgrade those items just a bit more.

    All we did in this example is give them a reason to participate in the system by flipping the rewards around (a base item with the potential for upgrades vs a valor drop). We havent broken any current progression systems. We've just made it more attractive. Indeed, it could be argued that by tying these to stygia or twisting corridors (for example) we've also helped improve the integration of the various systems in game and given players more reasons to engage with them.
    I would rather the great vault be trashed myself. Its a time gate system that over rewards players as it. I would rather gut all of these systems and let drops be drops. When they are ready they can climb the ladder.

  12. #1232
    Yes. IF they want the upgrade to go beyond the 200ilvl as the current system exists. Honestly, i cant see why it couldnt go to 207, but lets be honest... a base 184 ilvl, 50 valor from epic callings and 20 from rare callings... with 250-1000 valor required per ilvl upgrade... Whats that? 5 upgrades? 1250 valor - 5000 valor on one item to go from 184 to 200...

    And aprox 200 valor per week from callings alone... With about ten to twelve weeks left before the next patch and the invariable reset? So 2400 valor if you run only callings? Thats maybe 1 piece upgraded to 200 in that time. So even if it opened to 226 it wouldnt matter. The valor is only there if you enter mythic dungeons on the regular.
    Last edited by ippollite; 2021-04-08 at 02:41 AM.

  13. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Because 1) it was the final patch so getting Mythic gear out of solo content wasn't that big a deal, 2) Visions were heavily timegated in practice so you couldn't get 5 masks run week 1, unlike say Twisted Corridors that were trashed week 1 by good players, 3) that came in a later small patch anyway, not 8.3 itself, 4) it wasn't every slot, it was for about 6-7 slots if memory serves and finally 5) and most importantly, in that patch ilvl was a lot less important than what Corruption you had on the gear, so getting a Mythic piece that had a poor Corruption didn't help you much and most had a poor stat spread. That's why it caused little uproar, whereas Benthic gear being BiS for Eternal Palace and being only obtainable via open world grinding rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.
    It rubbed try hards the wrong way. Everybody else was progressing their characters. Should note that while those try hards represented a minority of players they still do the content anyway. Its ludicrous to risk alienating everybody else to appease these people who complained but did the content anyway.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  14. #1234
    Skill really isn't much of a factor despite popular belief. It basically comes down to class knowledge, content knowledge, and experience. The perception of this is often distorted because the combination of the aforementioned definition of Xp and gear trumps all.

  15. #1235
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    Skill really isn't much of a factor despite popular belief. It basically comes down to class knowledge, content knowledge, and experience. The perception of this is often distorted because the combination of the aforementioned definition of Xp and gear trumps all.
    I'd say that's a skill in itself, to be able to memorize every trash pull and every mechanic of every dungeon, and apply the appropriate tricks and CCs and interrupts at the right times, all while clicking all of your own buttons in precisely the right order while monitoring all of your procs and cooldowns.

    When putting all of that together it is definitely overwhelming and something I have a hard time managing anyway.

  16. #1236
    Quote Originally Posted by Tadkins View Post
    I'd say that's a skill in itself, to be able to memorize every trash pull and every mechanic of every dungeon, and apply the appropriate tricks and CCs and interrupts at the right times, all while clicking all of your own buttons in precisely the right order while monitoring all of your procs and cooldowns.

    When putting all of that together it is definitely overwhelming and something I have a hard time managing anyway.
    Same for class skills for any given opponent you can face. You don't expect to press two buttons and win against somebody who holds a leverage against you, do you.

    Devs can't cater to all the needs of somebody like you, and excuse me if I'm brunt. But there needs to be at least some willingness to play and interact with the game. Gear won't make all the problems disappear. There will always be challenging content and players, those won't be patched out of a massive multiplayer game.

  17. #1237
    Quote Originally Posted by Lost controller View Post
    I would rather the great vault be trashed myself. Its a time gate system that over rewards players as it. I would rather gut all of these systems and let drops be drops. When they are ready they can climb the ladder.
    In total agreement. But it would force a lock down in mythic plus on either the number of drops, the number of run per week, or the comparative ilvl of said drops.
    We tried two of the three this expansion and to quote nukes top 5... it did NOT. Go well.

    So that realistically leaves either a) lockouts on runs or b) the vault system as it stands. I can see nothing short of a riot in the case of the former. So it looks like this is the future going forward.

  18. #1238
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackstraw View Post
    Same for class skills for any given opponent you can face. You don't expect to press two buttons and win against somebody who holds a leverage against you, do you.

    Devs can't cater to all the needs of somebody like you, and excuse me if I'm brunt. But there needs to be at least some willingness to play and interact with the game. Gear won't make all the problems disappear. There will always be challenging content and players, those won't be patched out of a massive multiplayer game.
    A 1v1 with someone in the middle of Nazmir was never as overwhelming and stressful as memorizing the entire layout of a dungeon, the roster of mobs you need to interrupt, and the execution. But that is why I struggle with M+ and anyone who doesn't I would say has some skill. That's all I was saying.

    I am not that great and I always just tried to stay out of everyone's way and stick to the content I could handle. All I really wish for is that content to matter more, I suppose. I just want to feel like I have a place in the world.

  19. #1239
    Quote Originally Posted by Luxeley View Post
    Skill really isn't much of a factor despite popular belief. It basically comes down to class knowledge, content knowledge, and experience. The perception of this is often distorted because the combination of the aforementioned definition of Xp and gear trumps all.
    What really distorts perception is a complete and utter lack of understanding of what "skill" is, because you literally define it yourself. Your comment can be reworded as "its not skill, its SKILL". What do you think skill is exactly?

  20. #1240
    Quote Originally Posted by ippollite View Post
    In total agreement. But it would force a lock down in mythic plus on either the number of drops, the number of run per week, or the comparative ilvl of said drops.
    We tried two of the three this expansion and to quote nukes top 5... it did NOT. Go well.

    So that realistically leaves either a) lockouts on runs or b) the vault system as it stands. I can see nothing short of a riot in the case of the former. So it looks like this is the future going forward.
    Why?

    I don't really get why more tedium is ever the answer to making content. What possible harm would be done by allowing players to simply gear at a reasonable rate? Is the 16th run of the same dungeon really that unique a go?

    This whole mindset of "we need X to last for Y" is harmful to any game.

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