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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Typical "git gud" answer, which actually doesn't answer anything. But I guess you felt quite witty when typing it
    Oh he thinks he's the smartest guy on the internet, trust me.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  2. #142
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    Its usually mediocore players acting as if they were skilled players that complain about loot of casuals.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Crabs have been removed from the game... because if I see another one I’m just going to totally lose it. *sobbing* I’m sorry, I just can’t right now... I just... OK just give me a minute, I’ll be OK..

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthlessx View Post
    The same counts for the PVP landscape where players locked in 226 duelist gear don't want casuals reach a similar ilvl.
    The ones that "have" don't want to lose their edge and create a level playing field.

    However this edge causes a lot of casuals leaving the game, so the game only works for those who have access to the best gear.
    We see this happen as we speak in Shadowlands.

    Its realy sad tbh.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    What defines a casual? Are casuals incapable of running m+? Pugging a heroic raid? Reaching 1400?
    What does it matter? What defines hardcore? It is quantity of time played? Is it skill level? Is it having a consistent time during which you can play, with a set group of people, led by competent people?

    Maybe the solution to the argument is restricting ilvl in random/world content. Since we're arbitrarily restricting ilvl growth if you can't/won't do M+'s/arena/raid, set random/world content ilvl at highest covenant/random pvp ilvl.
    Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelled of elderberries.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Nnyco View Post
    Its usually mediocore players acting as if they were skilled players that complain about loot of casuals.
    Not so sure anymore about this these days.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    I mean,
    real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
    while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
    Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
    Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
    What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
    It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
    Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....
    a better analogy would be:

    you have a job and are quite good at it
    the guy next to you has the same job - the difference is, he works less and is shit at it but earns the same amount of money as you

    but hey, quote: "at the end of the day their are still better and skilled"

    same concept of effort vs reward, obviously people get mad

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    This attempt to crate a gotchya is even less clever when you literally state the words you want me to say to elicit the gotchya. Try to be more subtle about it next time.

    I think engagement with the game should result in progress, and you should be encouraged to engage broadly rather than in a narrow sense. I think that the ideal is someone can log in and do a few BGs, a few dungeons, maybe a raid, some crafting, etc.. and walk away with upgrades as a function of any or all of those things, rather than so much of the game being made virtually meaningless and players being encouraged to pick a single activity and focus only on that.
    My point was even if its at very different ends of the spectrum, we both agree some sort of effort and skill is required to get 226 gear beyond just logging on and getting it. Me and many other players just happen to believe that the effort/skill mark is at M+14, 2100, or mythic raid. You believe its lower.

    Ppl already do multiple activities. Beginning of season i got to 1400 for the upgrading conquest gear to 207. Had to do arenas and rbgs to get there. Bgs to get honor to upgrade it. Did normal and heroic pugs to get drops. Did m+ weekly to grind rio and get good vault drops.

    The real thing u should be against is the covenant gear. The covenant gear negated normal dungeons, heroics dungeons, mythic 0 dungeons, honor gear, world quest rewards, and LFR.

    As I said before tho, if u took a loll about whether casuals wanted the 197 cov gear removed so they could progress thru the content mentioned above, id bet that most would be more upset that you're taking easy gear away.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    Typical "git gud" answer, which actually doesn't answer anything. But I guess you felt quite witty when typing it
    Does about as much as posting on the forum for 226 gear does lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jazen View Post
    What does it matter? What defines hardcore? It is quantity of time played? Is it skill level? Is it having a consistent time during which you can play, with a set group of people, led by competent people?

    Maybe the solution to the argument is restricting ilvl in random/world content. Since we're arbitrarily restricting ilvl growth if you can't/won't do M+'s/arena/raid, set random/world content ilvl at highest covenant/random pvp ilvl.
    My point is i believe casuals are simply those thar play less, regardless of skill level. And casuals can very easily do m+, rated pvp, and pug heroic raids.

    A lot of ppl when they refer to "casuals" seem to actually be referring to very low skilled players.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    ~snip~
    A lot of ppl when they refer to "casuals" seem to actually be referring to very low skilled players.
    only took 8 pages for someone to get this. Better late than never, take your win sir. /salute
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Scarnage86 View Post
    That's why pvp in a MMO is rubbish... Pure pvp is skill vs skill. Remove equip factor and see who is the better player XD
    LOL even blizzard do that in arena championship!!!
    That only works if all classes are equally balanced. But they aren't, not even remotely. So skill vs skill can't exist when there are so many other variables. No MMO has ever really been able to nail down PvP and make it skill vs skill, outside of the same classes against each other.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    My point was even if its at very different ends of the spectrum, we both agree some sort of effort and skill is required to get 226 gear beyond just logging on and getting it. Me and many other players just happen to believe that the effort/skill mark is at M+14, 2100, or mythic raid. You believe its lower.

    Ppl already do multiple activities. Beginning of season i got to 1400 for the upgrading conquest gear to 207. Had to do arenas and rbgs to get there. Bgs to get honor to upgrade it. Did normal and heroic pugs to get drops. Did m+ weekly to grind rio and get good vault drops.

    The real thing u should be against is the covenant gear. The covenant gear negated normal dungeons, heroics dungeons, mythic 0 dungeons, honor gear, world quest rewards, and LFR.

    As I said before tho, if u took a loll about whether casuals wanted the 197 cov gear removed so they could progress thru the content mentioned above, id bet that most would be more upset that you're taking easy gear away.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Does about as much as posting on the forum for 226 gear does lol
    I think the game is in a much healthier state if all players actively engaging with endgame are able to get some best in slot without having to play the most extreme difficulty content in the game. Should there be special rewards for people doing that content? Obviously, whether those are increased numbers of drops, cosmetics, or whatever. However, if you base a game on a gear grind and then refuse all but a tiny fraction of players the ability to get the sense of BiS gear acquisition, that is bad for the game. It discourages the average player from playing.

    For example, let's look at the endgame for Destiny 2:
    -Gear drops are based on your personal ilvl rather than the content.
    -Once you get a very high ilvl, you can only get upgrade drops from certain activities.
    -These activities range from extremely casual to maximum difficulty
    -A player who plays casually can easily get their weekly upgrades from "Run three strikes (dungeons)" and "Play 3 pvp matches" and "Do this weekly challenge quest" activities.
    -A player that chooses to do difficult content will get all those upgrades PLUS upgrades from the hard content, and the drops from the hard content are unique items with special properties.

    That's a healthy endgame model, because everyone is being rewarded and everyone gets a sense of completion. The average week for a Destiny player involves doing every single type of activity in the game to some degree. The whole game is worth playing for everyone. You reward people for the depth of content they play (difficulty) AND the breadth of content they play (various modes).
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    I think the game is in a much healthier state if all players actively engaging with endgame are able to get some best in slot without having to play the most extreme difficulty content in the game. Should there be special rewards for people doing that content? Obviously, whether those are increased numbers of drops, cosmetics, or whatever. However, if you base a game on a gear grind and then refuse all but a tiny fraction of players the ability to get the sense of BiS gear acquisition, that is bad for the game. It discourages the average player from playing.

    For example, let's look at the endgame for Destiny 2:
    -Gear drops are based on your personal ilvl rather than the content.
    -Once you get a very high ilvl, you can only get upgrade drops from certain activities.
    -These activities range from extremely casual to maximum difficulty
    -A player who plays casually can easily get their weekly upgrades from "Run three strikes (dungeons)" and "Play 3 pvp matches" and "Do this weekly challenge quest" activities.
    -A player that chooses to do difficult content will get all those upgrades PLUS upgrades from the hard content, and the drops from the hard content are unique items with special properties.

    That's a healthy endgame model, because everyone is being rewarded and everyone gets a sense of completion. The average week for a Destiny player involves doing every single type of activity in the game to some degree. The whole game is worth playing for everyone. You reward people for the depth of content they play (difficulty) AND the breadth of content they play (various modes).
    And neither of us are objectively right. I happen to disagree with what makes a healthy game model.

    I believe players gearing at similar rates but harder content giving better gear is a better model. It gives players more of a reason to push into harder content, and gives a better feeling of satisfaction when they finally break the plateau. All players gear at a similar rate as opposed to best players gearing too quickly, and keeps everyone subbed the same length of time. This works best with a game like wow with "seasons".

    I think 26 ilvl difference (2/4 difficulty tiers) keeps players relatively close enough to eachother. Improving past 200 ilvl requires a small step up in difficulty that I and blizzard believes is healthy for the game and playerbase.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    And neither of us are objectively right. I happen to disagree with what makes a healthy game model.

    I believe players gearing at similar rates but harder content giving better gear is a better model. It gives players more of a reason to push into harder content, and gives a better feeling of satisfaction when they finally break the plateau. All players gear at a similar rate as opposed to best players gearing too quickly, and keeps everyone subbed the same length of time. This works best with a game like wow with "seasons".

    I think 26 ilvl difference (2/4 difficulty tiers) keeps players relatively close enough to eachother. Improving past 200 ilvl requires a small step up in difficulty that I and blizzard believes is healthy for the game and playerbase.
    Players shouldn't feel pushed into harder content. That's the absolute mistake here, objectively. It's different types of players that prefer harder content, and when you take players of a completely different type and make them feel like the only route to progress is moving into very difficult content, it makes everyone unhappy.

    There is no "plateau" here. Players either enjoy difficult content or they do not, and most of them simply do not. The idea that the game should be designed to protect the feelings of the 5% of players that love difficult content at the expense of the other 95% is simply bad game design.

    26 ilvl is an absurd amount of inflation that has other extremely negative effects on the game. You can keep repeating that the game is healthy, but it objectively isn't. The game has serious player retention problems, it is getting shredded by its most ardent community popular figures, and the state of it is so bad that Blizzard highlighted TBC Classic rather than retail during Blizzcon, which is a gigantic, screaming red flag. Where do these retention problems come from? A terrible endgame loop that satisfies a small fraction of elite players at the expense of everyone else.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  13. #153
    Why you no like filthy casual getting welfare epic ?

  14. #154
    I think the answer is quite simple: Ego.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Players shouldn't feel pushed into harder content. That's the absolute mistake here, objectively. It's different types of players that prefer harder content, and when you take players of a completely different type and make them feel like the only route to progress is moving into very difficult content, it makes everyone unhappy.

    There is no "plateau" here. Players either enjoy difficult content or they do not, and most of them simply do not. The idea that the game should be designed to protect the feelings of the 5% of players that love difficult content at the expense of the other 95% is simply bad game design.

    26 ilvl is an absurd amount of inflation that has other extremely negative effects on the game. You can keep repeating that the game is healthy, but it objectively isn't. The game has serious player retention problems, it is getting shredded by its most ardent community popular figures, and the state of it is so bad that Blizzard highlighted TBC Classic rather than retail during Blizzcon, which is a gigantic, screaming red flag. Where do these retention problems come from? A terrible endgame loop that satisfies a small fraction of elite players at the expense of everyone else.
    You keep saying objectively, but you are objectively not right.

    You think best players gearing even faster than they do now would help sub numbers?

    You think pushing ppl to just do the easiest content is healthy?

    The solution is not 226 gear for all. The solution is removing cov gear. But then the 26 ilvl gap would be more of 60 ilvl gap and "low skilled players" (what u seem to refer to as casuals) would complain even more.

    We can disagree about what's best for the game without trying to tell me you are right and I am wrong. These are opinions. Not some fact like you believe it to be.

    Plus the casuals get 226 gear next patch.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    You keep saying objectively, but you are objectively not right.

    You think best players gearing even faster than they do now would help sub numbers?

    You think pushing ppl to just do the easiest content is healthy?

    The solution is not 226 gear for all. The solution is removing cov gear. But then the 26 ilvl gap would be more of 60 ilvl gap and "low skilled players" (what u seem to refer to as casuals) would complain even more.

    We can disagree about what's best for the game without trying to tell me you are right and I am wrong. These are opinions. Not some fact like you believe it to be.
    The players that you are talking about, who you think the entire game needs to be catered to and centered around, is less than 10% of players (and that is generous). So, let's not pretend that the most extreme players are some kind of majority who the game cannot live without. They are a fringe. Again, this is a *fact* not an opinion. Why do you think zero games, ZERO try to attract the wow hardcore crowd? If there are so many of them and they are so important, where is the market that is trying to grab them? It doesn't exist, and the only attempt to grab them, Wildstar, failed miserably because it couldn't attract enough players.

    It is objectively true that pushing players into content that is harder than they enjoy is bad design. It leads to all kinds of problems, the least of which is toxicity. Blizzard developers have said this publicly, and the example they use is Cataclysm dungeons being too hard. It made players stop doing dungeons, rather than rise to the occasion. You are far, far too stuck in your own gaming mindset and perspective. You need to take a step back and realize that the vast majority of players do not play games to feel achievement from difficult content. They simply don't. That is a cold, hard fact.

    This is why players make bad designers. You can't see the forest for the trees. You think every other player is like you, just some are bad and some are good. That isn't how it works. You are what is called an "achiever" style player by game designers, while is about 10% of gamers. You are a far-flung tiny minority, and if you takea. step back and try to look at things outside of the "achiever" perspective, you will see the problems I am talking about.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  17. #157
    "I pay $15 a month" is not a good reason to give everyone the best gear. There are other things they can do to keep player retention up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    The players that you are talking about, who you think the entire game needs to be catered to and centered around, is less than 10% of players (and that is generous). So, let's not pretend that the most extreme players are some kind of majority who the game cannot live without. They are a fringe. Again, this is a *fact* not an opinion. Why do you think zero games, ZERO try to attract the wow hardcore crowd? If there are so many of them and they are so important, where is the market that is trying to grab them? It doesn't exist, and the only attempt to grab them, Wildstar, failed miserably because it couldn't attract enough players.

    It is objectively true that pushing players into content that is harder than they enjoy is bad design. It leads to all kinds of problems, the least of which is toxicity. Blizzard developers have said this publicly, and the example they use is Cataclysm dungeons being too hard. It made players stop doing dungeons, rather than rise to the occasion. You are far, far too stuck in your own gaming mindset and perspective. You need to take a step back and realize that the vast majority of players do not play games to feel achievement from difficult content. They simply don't. That is a cold, hard fact.

    This is why players make bad designers. You can't see the forest for the trees. You think every other player is like you, just some are bad and some are good. That isn't how it works. You are what is called an "achiever" style player by game designers, while is about 10% of gamers. You are a far-flung tiny minority, and if you takea. step back and try to look at things outside of the "achiever" perspective, you will see the problems I am talking about.
    I am well aware that im to 10% and there are many lower skilled players in the game. I just do not believe best rewards should be available to everyone

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by ellieg View Post
    "I pay $15 a month" is not a good reason to give everyone the best gear. There are other things they can do to keep player retention up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am well aware that im to 10% and there are many lower skilled players in the game. I just do not believe best rewards should be available to everyone
    It's not about skill. It's about what players enjoy doing. Most players flatly do not enjoy difficult content, whether they are good at it or not. Skill is completely immaterial.

    I'm concerned with what is good for the game, not what is good for ellieg. That is the disagreement here. You only care about the latter, and really you only care that other people are having *less fun* than you, and somehow you think "I want other people to have less fun" is good game design.
    "stop puting you idiotic liberal words into my mouth"
    -ynnady

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    It's not about skill. It's about what players enjoy doing. Most players flatly do not enjoy difficult content, whether they are good at it or not. Skill is completely immaterial.

    I'm concerned with what is good for the game, not what is good for ellieg. That is the disagreement here. You only care about the latter, and really you only care that other people are having *less fun* than you, and somehow you think "I want other people to have less fun" is good game design.
    No. I believe giving a full set of 226 gear every season to ppl that don't step into at least m+2, rated pvp, or pug heroics, would absolutely kill the game.

    You need to stop. You keep painting the argument as you, the righteous defender of wow and the 99%, vs me, ellieg the evil 1%er who wishes casuals would die. We clearly both care for the game and continuously attacking me because we have differing opinions makes you an ass.

    If you are playing wow, and do not enjoy m+, rated pvp, or raiding, when has wow ever offered u the best gear? When the game just started? When it was at its height of subs? Now?

    If you are playing wow, and do not enjoy m+, rated pvp, or raids, but still want the best gear, im asking why you are here.

    We both agree that ppl acquiring near full sets of 226 are the top 10% of the playerbase and nowhere near the majority. But from this, you assume the other 90% don't do m+, rated pvp, or raids, and are screaming for 226. I do not believe this is true at all.

    I believe there is a healthy set of population who are doing low to mid m+, normal / heroic raids, and low rated pvp, that are quite happy with the gear they are earning.

    I believe there is a healthy set of population that play for tmogs, collectibles, crafting, etc... that do not care that they aren't 226.

    I think the population of players who don't do m+, rated pvp, or raids but still crave the 226, are 1 of if not the smallest playerbase.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    I agree that it shouldn't matter but it does.

    If a normal driver does the same route it takes away some of the "awe" from the professional driver. At least in the eyes of the general public. I guess it's just how we work. Even if I know it's unfair to judge a artisans work by how perfect a machine made piece can be but I still judge them. I see that something isn't perfectly straight, that a tiny detail isn't cymetrical with the other side etc. If I didn't know of the machine made piece then I would just be stunned by how good their work was because it would be best piece I had ever seen.
    but that is a terrible comparison, becasue you are talking about results rather then the tools. gear is a tool. normal driver using the same car as a professional, is NOT going to be able to get the same result, the same finesse, the same speed. because they do not have the skill, so even giving them exactly the same tools is not going to make them as good. and THAT is the point. being salty over casual players getting good gear is NOT taking away from your skill. you will STILL have an edge. tools do not make a master. a master can take even shittiest tools and create a masterpiece. an amateur could be given the most amazing, highest end tools and their result is going to look worse then a master using crappy ones. so the only thing that this gatekeeping of gear shows is that people who are doing it realize that they are not nearly as skilled as they pretend to be.

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