Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Frozenbro]

This isn't true...you know that right?

No end boss died without bis corruptions, maxed ap, maxed conduits to claim otherwise makes you a fool or a liar but its one of the two.

That depends on whats your context, cause for starters world first guilds always kill the end boss without the best gear, and after that many guilds continue to kill said end boss without bis gear, you can even look at warcraftlogs yourself and check that every single "non meta" spec has killed denathrius mythic, despite this going against your claims of "need everything bis and meta to kill end boss", you live in an interesting bubble.

edit: my monk with CE for months is still rocking 184 ilvl potency conduits

[Lost controller]

There are plenty of kills of mythic end bosses that don't require you to grind and grind. There are plenty of times where a time casual guild has been able to defeat a final boss without grinding. More then the top 10 guilds in the world clear mythic. You can get your neck or your corruptions or your esscences or your neck level or your artifact traits to the appropriate level without grinding AND still clear mythic. It's called playing the game. Just because YOU can't doesn't mean it's impossible. Please leave the name calling out of it.

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TIL that calmly explaining how you can make your own groups with your own requirements to get the gear that you want is toxic. As a self respecting casual I barely have any problem with the "elitists". It's my key and I can kick or invite anyone I want. All issues resolved.

Can you link one of these supposed kills?

I know you cant but I figure you digging though warcraft logs for hours would help hammer home my point.

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That depends on whats your context, cause for starters world first guilds always kill the end boss without the best gear, and after that many guilds continue to kill said end boss without bis gear, you can even look at warcraftlogs yourself and check that every single "non meta" spec has killed denathrius mythic, despite this going against your claims of "need everything bis and meta to kill end boss", you live in an interesting bubble.

edit: my monk with CE for months is still rocking 184 ilvl potency conduits

I mean this isn't true... they kill the boss at usually the recommended gear level via split running. For znoth they actually killed it with better gear then anyone else could have had since they had prenerf corruption trivializing parts of the fight...

While you can also over gear and encounter as we all know carries are a thing you wont kill the boss in a reasonable amount of time doing that.

[Nadiru]

The people who are mad about it are the in-betweens who aren't amazing at the game but rely on gear to carry them.

[Frozenbro]

I mean this isn't true... they kill the boss at usually the recommended gear level via split running. For znoth they actually killed it with better gear then anyone else could have had since they had prenerf corruption trivializing parts of the fight...

While you can also over gear and encounter as we all know carries are a thing you wont kill the boss in a reasonable amount of time doing that.

For starters, Nyalotha was a meme of a tier cause of corruption, second what you consider the recommended gear to kill a boss will just be X ilvl to support your claims, so its a moot point, third if we talk about current tier they killed Denathrius with 221 ilvl as a group, while the raid drops 226 with generals and denathrius dropping 233, i dont need to say that this is far from bis right? and finally to counter even more your point, my guild thats just a non HoF #51 US guild killed Denathrius with 224 group ilvl, which again is far from bis, and in a pretty reasonable time too since its been over 2 months since we killed it, so can we agree that you are exaggerating way too much? your point about people needing full bis full ap full conduits etc to kill the endboss is just plain false.

[munkeyinorbit]

Can you link one of these supposed kills?

I know you cant but I figure you digging though warcraft logs for hours would help hammer home my point.

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I mean this isn't true... they kill the boss at usually the recommended gear level via split running. For znoth they actually killed it with better gear then anyone else could have had since they had prenerf corruption trivializing parts of the fight...

While you can also over gear and encounter as we all know carries are a thing you wont kill the boss in a reasonable amount of time doing that.

No TY. There are 2 reasons.
You will just shift the goal posts again just as you have in this post. First I you were so confident that no end boss had been killed without bis that you were insulting. Then you got pulled up by a few users who decided not to stoop to your level and calmly point out that you were wrong. Now you have come up with a new definition for bis and also say that casuals who buy runs don't count. Which is the core concept of my argument. It is about casuals.

You might not know but in academia where this "source please, bro" culture comes from only requires a source when you make a claim against common knowledge. It is common knowledge that casuals can and do buy mythic runs all the time. Source not needed.

All of this is beside the point. Your unsubstantiated claim that you have to grind out these systems is wrong. Not withstanding the top 10 actually being in bis or best available (which isn't actually bis), most first kills by a guild didn't require them to grind that AP to max. They would have reached the max with casual game play before they were in a shot of killing the last boss. No grinding required.

It is polite, but not necessary, to acknowledge when you are wrong.

[arkanon]

This isn't true...you know that right?

No end boss died without bis corruptions, maxed ap, maxed conduits to claim otherwise makes you a fool or a liar but its one of the two.

Sorry but this is simply not true - the earlier the kill, the LOWER the gear, and they do NOT have maxed out grinds - maxed out from the PREVIOUS tier, yes, but not the current. They are far too busy, you know, clearing the content. Im pretty sure this is an well established fact at this point, especially for healers and tanks, as the modern method is to funnel gear into DPS, not healers/tanks as it once was.

Honestly this can even be looked up I believe, with logging websites snapshotting the gear used in the kill. I genuinely believed this was common knowledge, and wasnt up for debate.

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The people who are mad about it are the in-betweens who aren't amazing at the game but rely on gear to carry them.

Well that doesn't really line up with the opinions of most of the people in here. But I will ask one question - if they are in-betweens who are not amazing at the game, how did the acquire the gear that you suggest they use to "carry" themselves?

[Nadiru]

Well that doesn't really line up with the opinions of most of the people in here. But I will ask one question - if they are in-betweens who are not amazing at the game, how did the acquire the gear that you suggest they use to "carry" themselves?

They're the "good enoughs" who get brought along as warm bodies in guilds that aren't particularly picky.

[arkanon]

They're the "good enoughs" who get brought along as warm bodies in guilds that aren't particularly picky.

Ah right, i get it now..........................the perfect spot for one of the people complaining they cant get into any groups? Intriguing that these "warm bodies" are chosen over the "skilled" casual players, dont you think?

[munkeyinorbit]

They're the "good enoughs" who get brought along as warm bodies in guilds that aren't particularly picky.

By this definition I'm amazing. By my definition I'm some casual who has worked his way up a couple of dungeons a week at a time who now sees non raid bis gear. I don't raid so I can't expect any weapons or trinkets that are bis from raids.

I think the real "middle of the road" player from mmoc is just someone who makes their own opportunities and gets on with it. These warm bodies sound like bads who get carried by their friends.

[Lost controller]

For starters, Nyalotha was a meme of a tier cause of corruption, second what you consider the recommended gear to kill a boss will just be X ilvl to support your claims, so its a moot point, third if we talk about current tier they killed Denathrius with 221 ilvl as a group, while the raid drops 226 with generals and denathrius dropping 233, i dont need to say that this is far from bis right? and finally to counter even more your point, my guild thats just a non HoF #51 US guild killed Denathrius with 224 group ilvl, which again is far from bis, and in a pretty reasonable time too since its been over 2 months since we killed it, so can we agree that you are exaggerating way too much? your point about people needing full bis full ap full conduits etc to kill the endboss is just plain false.

How many off spec players did you have for it?

[Frozenbro]

How many off spec players did you have for it?

What does offspec even mean lmao, are you really trying so hard to support such a stupid claim? just let it go, nothing supports your claims, theres wowprogress, logs, high end players exp that can prove you wrong and you still wanna continue? im telling you that we didnt have bis gear, people had 184-200 ilvl conduits during progress and even during denathrius kill, cause you know i actually did the content, did you tho? or you are just claiming some stuff randomly based on mmmmm nothing?

[arkanon]

How many off spec players did you have for it?

Define "off spec". Seriously, to answer that questions, we would need a firm definition of what constitutes an "off spec".

[Frozenbro]

Define "off spec". Seriously, to answer that questions, we would need a firm definition of what constitutes an "off spec".

I guess the definition is w/e spec wasnt used by Limit on their first kill, and if that is the case then it was 5, but i know he will change the definition to fit his narrative, im used to these guys saying something based on nothing and then when some1 who actually did the content proves them wrong they change the goalposts, its the mmochamp special.

[arkanon]

I guess the definition is w/e spec wasnt used by Limit on their first kill, and if that is the case then it was 5, but i know he will change the definition to fit their narrative, im used to these guys saying something based on nothing and then when some1 who actually did the content proves them wrong they change the goalposts, its the mmochamp special.

So thats the problem with using terms like "non-meta" (which is what i assume they were referencing) is that it is a fan-based concept, with no fixed definition. It basically just boils down to "less popular spec", and I myself have completed countless endgame activities on "non-meta" specs, and had a blast doing it.

If history has shown us anything, its that the higher end players excel at identifying niche situations where non-meta specs perform exceptionally well, so it is actually MORE likely to see a high end player playing a non-meta spec, at least in the raid world. Yes, when you look at a massive data sample there will be some clear winners and losers, some more popular specs and plenty of less popular ones. But that doesnt mean a spec is useless or non-viable, because the other factor is that those world first / top performers are also exceptionally skilled and playing a spec at or close to its peak.

[munkeyinorbit]

How many off spec players did you have for it?

What is this? How many straws did you manage to grab with this last grasp? Are you now trying to say that kills are always using bis unless they are using people who were in an offspec role? This is becoming a disgrace.

[Frozenbro]

So thats the problem with using terms like "non-meta" (which is what i assume they were referencing) is that it is a fan-based concept, with no fixed definition. It basically just boils down to "less popular spec", and I myself have completed countless endgame activities on "non-meta" specs, and had a blast doing it.

Its completely doable and viable since people love to use that word in the wrong way (the correct word is optimal when describing meta specs, but people love to use viable instead of optimal) and you could say that past world #50 everything is usable, maybe even before, but its common for people to try to use the meta specs, even if those players playing meta specs are grey/green parsers instead of bringing the 95+ survi hunter or w/e non meta spec you can put here.

[arkanon]

Its completely doable and viable since people love to use that word in the wrong way (the correct word is optimal when describing meta specs, but people love to use viable instead of optimal) and you could say that past world #50 everything is usable, maybe even before, but its common for people to try to use the meta specs, even if those players playing meta specs are grey/green parsers instead of bringing the 95+ survi hunter or w/e non meta spec you can put here.

Yup, after 10 years+ of raid leading, and desperately trying to tell my raiders to just play what they enjoy and are good at, and their performance will be better......I would take a player who is comfortable and experienced with their spec over someone just trying to cookie-cutter copy/paste a WF raiders build ANY day, and the reason is actually very simple - those WF raiders? They could play any spec and far exceed the performance of some 300th ranked guild or w/e playing a "meta" spec.

I also agree with your assessment that many people confuse meta/viable/optimal, and it makes for some very frustrating discussions. This was at its peak in Classic, with people asking "is this class/spec viable?" and the obvious response being "yeah, without a doubt, ofc it is viable - its not OPTIMAL, but its absolutely viable" and the response was always the same "oh, ok, so I need to play something else". No, you fucking DONT need to play something else - certainly not in classic, and absolutely not in lfr/normal/heroic, and even Mythic.

[chiddie]

This didn't happen. You admit to crippling anxiety so you never said this.

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The first question is why? Why would anyone do that? You can get to ilvl 180 with just 5 hours game play. That's all of your armor to 197, your weapon to 183. Your neck to 171 and your rings to 168. All without doing any group content. Zero group content. Buy a trinket for 3k and you have a 200 trinket and a 138 trinket. That's an ilvl of about 189.

Now you are 189, do the same thing. Even with your purposely toxic description and as a dps it'll take 5 mins to create a group.

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Would they though? Bads generally don't have a good rio score. If you see some guy that's 220 but has a rio of 400 wouldn't that indicate that they might be a bad? Rio is not a perfect system but it gives you some indication of experience. It will also tell you if someone is a mythic raider who doesn't do a lot of dungeons. The information is there and you can use it to make good decisions.

I stopped at 170 because gear wise doing an M0 if you’re 190 is useless.

But even supposing you open a group at 190, it will take way more than 5 minutes to fill unless, again, you’re tank or healer yourself.

[Razion]

It doesn't seem fair for someone to put in more work and get less but it also doesn't feel fair when the rich get richer sort of deal on the other end.

The answer is for there to be no gear at all, like a fighting game, I guess, where competition and play is its own reward.

But that requires making a different game, one maybe the WoW audience isn't looking for. I think inherently the fantasies of leveling and gearing up... it's all power fantasy, so like, they need or want to overpower the obstacle, that's the kind of genre WoW is literally by convention. And maybe arguably it has become socially so competitive it seems less related to power fantasy and more related to something akin to esports. So I guess the question is what does the majority of the population think and how many play for power/rpg elements and how many play to compete/fight.

Two different cultures trying to coexist may not even be a bad thing - plenty of other games have both.

But, ultimately, telling a competitive or casual player they're having fun wrong is wrong. Fun is the business, fun is the name of 'the game' and the way of the money for the industry (or should be, by definition as 'entertainment').

To conclude, telling people how to have fun is wrong, imo. But maybe that's an old take.

[arkanon]

It doesn't seem fair for someone to put in more work and get less but it also doesn't feel fair when the rich get richer sort of deal on the other end.

The answer is for there to be no gear at all, like a fighting game, I guess, where competition and play is its own reward.

But that requires making a different game, one maybe the WoW audience isn't looking for. I think inherently the fantasies of leveling and gearing up... it's all power fantasy, so like, they need or want to overpower the obstacle, that's the kind of genre WoW is literally by convention. And maybe arguably it has become socially so competitive it seems less related to power fantasy and more related to something akin to esports. So I guess the question is what does the majority of the population think and how many play for power/rpg elements and how many play to compete/fight.

Two different cultures trying to coexist may not even be a bad thing - plenty of other games have both.

But, ultimately, telling a competitive or casual player they're having fun wrong is wrong. Fun is the business, fun is the name of 'the game' and the way of the money for the industry (or should be, by definition as 'entertainment').

To conclude, telling people how to have fun is wrong, imo. But maybe that's an old take.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...etic-only-gear

Some interesting reading in there.