Why skilled player got so mad about casual getting better loot?

[Yriel]

Raid quality gear =/= being close to mythic raiders

Truth is, you never were, it seems like you guys are the ones that only see what you want to see, with your memory betraying you here and there, maybe every 200 ilvl piece you have should say "Castle Nathria equivalent gear" instead also high end players only complained about the "cant trade stuff" part of titanforging, since it resulted in situations where you couldnt give away another guildie BiS, and this happened way too often.

I don't know where this "exact same gear as Mythic raiders" comes from, i never said that and seriously doubt that many people want exact the same gear als mythic raiders for worldquests. But people want an item progression outside of higher raiding/M+.
Plus you have the problem of shitty balancing, the balancing outside of these contents is totally off because of the gear.
See all the "Torghast is too easy/hard" threads, People with high end gear can easily solo all of it even on weaker classes, people in quest gear can't. People don't find groups for Worldbosses/Elites/Mawbosses because you can solo them with high end gear but not without. And that is bad because that is the content casuals play.

[heheszek]

I mean,
real skilled players can complete their goals even with not so good equip (very good player in normal gear can complete hc, with hc gear can complete mythic)
while casual need that gear to pass that goals....
Why skilled player got so mad about??? at the end of the day their are still better and skilled!
Or after all this wow years we still make the same error and think gear should be a reward for skill instead that a pure instrument to a goal???
What the heck a top 100-1000 player need mythic loot for, if they close raid/m+ in hc gear???
It's like a professional driver/pilot going mad the normal driver can do the same route but with autopilot and a better car....
Or football/soccer player going mad to sunday friendly bob about having better shooes and equipment....

Current Thread Warnings:

This is not a thread about Final Fantasy 14 and the "Game vs. Game" argument is derailing the thread. Please return to the actual topic of the thread.

didnt read whole topic because its massive so similar answer to my might already be here

your example for autopilot is completely out of sense in this situation

its more like 1200 chess player could use stockfish or have more material during tourmanets because he WANT to achieve his goals, like playing or beating Magnus Carlsen, or cyclist using e-bike for racing with normal sportsman
you dont get things just because u want them

if they gave ppl free 300ilvl to complete mythic raid just for fun, they casuals would say we want ultra mythic version because mythic is easy, and dont forget to give us 400ilvl because we want to complete that goal

current problem with game is that there is so much power difference between players and its not linear, u get higher lvl you jump all items from 200 to 207 - 213 220 226

in old days for example in pvp you could get all off-parts for honor (current season) and then get some set pieces depend on your rating, so 1500 player was only slighty worse than 1700, and because of only little gear diff it was easier to beat those opponents and get rating for the "last" pieces
now u have 200ilvl and fight with guy who is full 220 because he paid for boost, and the diff is bigger than whole season gear diff in old expansions
back in the day he would just have a few more items with 10ilvl diff
avg ilvl would be 226 (boosted) vs lets say 222 or even 220, while currently its 226(boosted guy) vs 207 xd or sth its crazy

i guess for pve its the same, power jumps are so huge, gear just skyrockets and make things trivial if u manage to get "1" step in pve/pvp, lets say 1800rating or dunno m+10

[munkeyinorbit]

I don't understand why having a path to BiS gear for more casual players, that is attainable gradually over a patch cycle, gets so much resistance.

The very skilled and organized would still get to BiS before anyone else even if the game "catered" to more casual players.

Locking achievements, mounts, titles, transmog, etc. behind skill/difficulty thresholds feels right to me and gives the game spice imo.

Locking player power behind the those same thresholds is what makes people feel like they are being left out.

You are confusing casuals with people who just don't want to play the game. Casuals are understanding of the fact that there is a clear progression to gear. They understand that they may not even get close to bis. What casuals don't do is spend hours on a forum demanding gear when they don't actually play the game. Doing your WQ and having a bitch because the "elitists" are blocking you makes you a non player.

Casuals like me spend a couple of hours on each alt every week to clear a m+ or two to get some gear. I've just gotten a sp to 60. It's taken me 2 months to get there. It's now done a 2 last week and a 4 this week. It'll be doing weekly 10s in 2 weeks. I don't expect it will be 226 by next patch. It prob won't even have full 220 by next patch. The point is I am progressing my alts casually because I am following the path. The non players need to go find a solo game. We are better off without you.

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Yeah you are outright lying. That isn't true AT ALL.

Multiple people have said the opposite. The feel on the internet says the opposite. I wonder what your goal is with sticking to this false narrative.

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The vault only awards you if you're a raider, M+ runner or rated PvPer. Neither of which are really options if you have no friends or a guild, like me.

I have no friends or a guild. I get 5 pieces of loot from aprox 10 hours a week play. I have found plenty of options. For months now.

[Kumorii]

The vault only awards you if you're a raider, M+ runner or rated PvPer. Neither of which are really options if you have no friends or a guild, like me.

Raider, sure if you only want mythic ilvl in the vault... normal and HC is puggable. Especially now.
M+ vault I did solo even though I'm in a mythic raiding guild because I sometimes prefer just to play "alone"... PvP I can't comment on.

You don't need a guild for raiding(except mythic) or m+ though, that's just a myth that are putting up barriers for yourself.

[munkeyinorbit]

Fair enough. It would just be kind of demoralizing to know that guy gets to do 3 WQs in the time it takes you to do 1.

But yup random BGs are the one thing I've consistently enjoyed in every expansion so being allowed to have fun in those is the one major thing I'm concerned about, and those do require gear.

No they don't. There is no restriction. Press h and then join random bg. It's that simple.

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It wasn't. A lot of people make this misconception that in previous (or even earlier) expansions you had minus 10 (or any other number actually) item levels compare to the other guy, then the difference in power is roughly the same. It's not. Thanks to both item level squish and level squish.

Quick example is, MoP (assuming similar, medium skill): did you have a chance against 545 while having 535 gear? Yes.
Do you have a chance against 210 wearing 200 ? Unlikely.

It has been mathematically proven to be approx 1.01 ^10 difference. You are absolutely completely wrong. It is astonishing how wrong you are

[chiddie]

What will that solve? What would be the new difficulty? You want classic setting back where you snore the boss down?

What about a difficulty that adapts to the global ilvl of the group?

Probably a stupid idea, just came in mind and posted it XD.

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No they don't. There is no restriction. Press h and then join random bg. It's that simple.

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It has been mathematically proven to be approx 1.01 ^10 difference. You are absolutely completely wrong. It is astonishing how wrong you are

Dude he’s worried about being perma gibbed in random bgs due to low ilvl gear, of course entering them is free.

[ippollite]

Aaaaaaaaaahhhhhh... look, theres a skill gap. Of course there is. Anyone playing 2s arena for any extended period can tell you there is. Anyone routinely running 15s versus any player stepping into mythic zero for the first time knows theres a skill gap that wont account for the sheer difference in dps. My first time in any new content involves an obvious learning period where im almost exclusively focussed on reacting to mechanics versus an experienced player predicting and preempting (building around) those same mechanics. This is a huge dps loss.

Then, when i get good, theres multipliers at work as well. If the other 4 people are experienced, theyre in control and have awesome throughput. If they arent, fights last longer, windows diminish in value and are more likely to average out on a parse. Thats literally one multiplier.

Lets go pvp and 1 v 1 with equal skill level and different ilvl. Well, you have available 15% extra throughput over me. But you also have 15% extra stats in defensives (heals and mitigation). Am i really just having to overcome 15% difference. Even at the most base level im not only having to deal with 15% less dps, im also having to deal with your 15% extra health. But lets not be basic. Lets get into it. I mean, my health is dropping faster, so im more prone to burn my cooldowns to deal with it, right? On top of this, your spikes are lessened allowing you to hold off on making those defensive calls. And on top of all this, i still have to burn through an extra 15% of health and mitigation.

To think this is just about flat throughput accounting for nothing else is at best, naive. You not only have more health and damage, you also have more time to make key decisions in your use of cooldowns. I, on the other hand, HAVE to play more reactively. I have to defeat a crypto 30% increase in stats (even if its additive, which it very likely isnt through the sheer power of cooldowns), but on top of this, i have to somehow force you to make a mistake and burn your defensives (and then hope i have enough deeps to pressure you before theyre back up).

At no point do you have to believe me. But even preach's community (i watch his stream), is pushing back on this very simple calculation. Yes, you can sim this and get a nice value. But this isnt a solo game. If i have a decent team behind me, regardless of my personal skill level, i ipso facto have more capacity to make decisions, play preemptively and er, get good.

[munkeyinorbit]

That's very true. They squished the item levels but didn't bother to squish the iLvl increases.

iLvl 1000 vs 1010 for example is quite managable.
Let's divide that 1000 by 5 so we get to 200. Then add 10 and multiply it by 5 again and we arrive at iLvl 1050. That's quite a difference.

After the squish the iLvl brackets should've increased by 2, not 10. The power creep is worse than ever now because of it.

This is completely wrong. It hasn't changed since WotLK. How can you not know how it works by now.

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I wish they could've at least gone down to increments of 5 after the squish. The amount of power 10 iLvls results in is ridiculous, it only increases the divide between the lowest geared players and the highest geared.
For example if heroic raids was iLvl 213 then normal could be 208 and mythic 218.

It is not ridiculous. It's a bit more than 10% inc. The vast dif you may see is skill.

[Raisei]

I don't know where this "exact same gear as Mythic raiders" comes from, i never said that and seriously doubt that many people want exact the same gear als mythic raiders for worldquests. But people want an item progression outside of higher raiding/M+.

The only way this was possible was if we would increase Raid Loot by 20 ilvls, and then allow everyone else to gear to 220 from other things. And you know what will happen then? People will hit 220 and the exact same arguments will come again. "I can't progress anymore, because picking flowers only awards 220 items! Why does Raiding give 233! I want 233!"
Please don't pretend you don't know that this is the case. Everyone playing the game has a limit to how much they can progress. Be it choice or skill based. I am close to 226 now, after months of dungeoneering and raiding, but I will never see the juicy 233 items that drop from Stone Legion and Denathrius Mythic. A mixture of not being a Mythic Raider and not having the time to progress through Mythic.

Do you see me complaining that my progression is stopped at this point? No, because it is my choice not to participate in Mythic Raiding, just as it is the choice of the folks in this thread not to participate in group content. It's their choice and their resposibility. The game is not at fault for their decisions.

Plus you have the problem of shitty balancing, the balancing outside of these contents is totally off because of the gear.
See all the "Torghast is too easy/hard" threads, People with high end gear can easily solo all of it even on weaker classes, people in quest gear can't. People don't find groups for Worldbosses/Elites/Mawbosses because you can solo them with high end gear but not without. And that is bad because that is the content casuals play.

First of all, the world adjusts around your gear and character level, so mobs are stronger if you engage them at 226 then at 200. Granted it's still pretty easy to kill them, but in a high level zone like the Maw even a highly geared character can still die if they pull stupid. Torghast recently had an Ilvl recommendation added, which tells you which floor you should try.

But otherwise ... I mean yeah, people with higher gear have an easier time then those with lower gear... that is kind of the point of an MMO. The only way to remove this is by removing gear as a factor entirely and that is terrible.
Not to mention that if people would be judged entirely by their skill in playing you would still see a significant divide, because the people that are sporting 226 ilvl gear now are in general better players specifically because they have applied themselves and put effort into being good enough to earn their gear.

[ellieg]

You think the average CEO of a company puts in more effort than their frontline employees, huh. LOL okay

Plus, your analogy doesn't actually support your position. In your analogy, both the CEO and the mail room assistant progress using the same currency. The mail room assistant just does it more slowly. If both of them want to buy a fancy suit, they probably both can. One just has to save a lot longer.

That's actually what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyles, and just does it in scale. Valor could have been that system, but was instead a half-baked mess (but then that's keeping in theme with SL entirely).

Ahh yes. I forgot how the common person eventually works up to having a Lamborghini, a yacht, and a mansion just like the CEO. Just takes a little longer...LMAO. The "fancy suit" is the one and only nice thing he will get and that's the 235 legendary. He drives the regular car, has no boat, and lives in an average house. He will never have what the CEO has.

[Gugabuga]

Damm im just here to have fun... or trying to atleast

[Echo of Soul]

Ahh yes. I forgot how the common person eventually works up to having a Lamborghini, a yacht, and a mansion just like the CEO. Just takes a little longer...LMAO. The "fancy suit" is the one and only nice thing he will get and that's the 235 legendary. He drives the regular car, has no boat, and lives in an average house. He will never have what the CEO has.

Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.

[ellieg]

Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.

Then why are you on a wow forum instead of on those games? This game has been this way for 16 years. Its not going to change lol. Through casual content you earn gear that is good enough to complete said casual content. If you want gear good enough to semi afk thru casual content, you have to do harder content.

[munkeyinorbit]

I agree. The high end players in WoW care way too much about what everyone else has and how everyone else plays the game instead of focusing on themselves.

Except this isn't true. Players who have gear only care about others who have gear. They only play with others that have gear. If you don't have gear they ignore you. This is pretty much geared players focusing on themselves.

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What about a difficulty that adapts to the global ilvl of the group?

Probably a stupid idea, just came in mind and posted it XD.

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Dude he’s worried about being perma gibbed in random bgs due to low ilvl gear, of course entering them is free.

That's not what he said though. This is a text based conversation. You can only reply to what is typed, not what people "mean".

[Crimson Spears]

Except this isn't true. Players who have gear only care about others who have gear. They only play with others that have gear. If you don't have gear they ignore you. This is pretty much geared players focusing on themselves.

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That's not what he said though. This is a text based conversation. You can only reply to what is typed, not what people "mean".

Not really its raider io now gotta get with the times.

[Echo of Soul]

Then why are you on a wow forum instead of on those games? This game has been this way for 16 years.

You must not have played for all of these 16 years then. We've had systems like that on multiple occasions and not once did I care what items what casual players were and weren't getting. I got better loot faster from raiding.

[ellieg]

You must not have played for all of these 16 years then. We've had systems like that on multiple occasions and not once did I care items what casual players were and weren't getting. I got better loot faster from raiding.

I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content

[erifwodahs]

Comparing video games to real life is kinda silly in my opinion. The fact is that other MMORPGs successfully implement systems where you can through casual content work towards your gear over a long period of time doing without the elitist minmaxers going ape shit.

Well, I don't see elitist minmaxers going ape shit. I actually see people saying that they want the gear but don't want to do anything group related and calling everyone toxic elitists minmaxers. You can get 220 gear from vault after doing m+ 10, which is very easy with covenant gear. Is it ideal progression? No. But no elitist cares about that for sure. Ilvl means jack shit anyway these days rio, CR and x/10M is what matters.

[Thunderball]

I've played every xpac for 16 years. Thats great that you don't care because u raid. But that dsnt change the fact that casuals have never had a gearing process that allowed them to work towards the best gear at a slower pace without doing the hardest content

Casuals always had gear progression. People that cant or cannot be arsed to do harder content didnt, which is a good thing.

[ellieg]

Casuals always had gear progression. People that cant or cannot be arsed to do harder content didnt, which is a good thing.

I agree. I was refuting the comment about "what I'd love to see in this game: a system that rewards all playstyle".