US Immigration Policy Need Major Revamp

[Rasulis]

We went to a farewell party for a mutual friend with my wife, my sister and our downstair neighbour. She is leaving San Francisco for Toronto, Canada. Why?

Is it crime? No.
Cost of living? No.
Homelessness? No.

The answer is a lot less prosaic. Her visa run out.

She came from India to study at Stanford. Graduated with PhD in cellular microbiology. She had job offers before she even graduated and ended up at Genentech on OPT1 visa. Which was extended 24 months for a total of 3 years.

Genentech applied for H-1B visa for her three times during that 3-year period. Unfortunately, she was unlucky. Only 35,000 H-1B visas are available each year and the total number of applicants is usually around 1M. She was not one of the 35,000 recipients.

Genentech did not want to let her go, so they offered her a position in Toronto. Turned out Canada has an expedited process for granting STEM workers Permanent Residence status. Something that the US should emulate.

Emotion aside, I would think any country in the world would consider a PhD from Stanford as a valuable asset. Well, the US just lost one to Canada.

Time to wake up.

From 2021.

House Immigration Chair Warns U.S. Is Losing Talent To Canada

[Kaleredar]

I've always thought some variation of "go to school in the USA, keep your nose clean, secure gainful employment, boom you're a US citizen" is absolutely sensible.


Republicans are always bandying on about how they're totally for "good immigration" from the "right countries" and the "right people." But why on earth would the "right people" from the "right countries" want to live in the republican's version of the USA?

[Flarelaine]

I've always thought some variation of "go to school in the USA, keep your nose clean, secure gainful employment, boom you're a US citizen" is absolutely sensible.


Republicans are always bandying on about how they're totally for "good immigration" from the "right countries" and the "right people." But why on earth would the "right people" from the "right countries" want to live in the republican's version of the USA?

I doubt Republicans have India in mind when they think of the "right country". It's full of brown people.

Also this is political out of the box, so I'm moving the thread.

[Biglog]

It's 65,000 (not 35k) H1-B visas officially approved per year, plus 20,000 additional for those with Master's degrees. And then they also go over that number with a lottery, so the total in 2023 was 132,000. And 188k already have been approved in 2024, but the # of applications has gone way up recently.

It's not a million per year that usually apply, but it is true that 1M may apply this year because the number of applicants has skyrocketed over 80% in 2024. That # has always been around 100-200k since 2000 until last year, when it jumped to 483k in 2023, and will be over 1M this year.

So it's historically been about 1/2 of applicants that are approved, and the total number approved has gone up quite a bit the last 2 years. But since the # of applicants has suddenly increased 5x in 2 years, it will probably be closer to 20-25% this year that will be approved. It's something that was kind of a smaller problem that has quickly become a larger one because of the huge increase in applications. Does the US increase the cap because the application number has gone up 5x all of a sudden? More than double the cap has already been approved in 2024, so they are already accounting for that and accepting more. Educated workers are a positive for the economy. But you can start to see where the current situation is more complicated than it seems at first look.

[bladeXcrasher]

Time to wake up.

From 2021.

House Immigration Chair Warns U.S. Is Losing Talent To Canada

It's really annoying when they do shit like that, comparing total enrollment in Canada verse only graduate level STEM enrollment in US.

[Sunseeker]

On the flip side, that number of visas was completely filled, it's not like the US isn't accepting anyone, and it's not like they're not accounting for education. There's just a limit. Remember than every single one of those visas she applied for had similar candidates, possibly superior candidates competing for them.

I'm not saying the immigration system doesn't have problems, I'm just saying this not really one of its failure points.

[Rasulis]

It's 65,000 (not 35k) H1-B visas officially approved per year, plus 20,000 additional for those with Master's degrees. And then they also go over that number with a lottery, so the total in 2023 was 132,000. And 188k already have been approved in 2024, but the # of applications has gone way up recently.

It's not a million per year that usually apply, but it is true that 1M may apply this year because the number of applicants has skyrocketed over 80% in 2024. That # has always been around 100-200k since 2000 until last year, when it jumped to 483k in 2023, and will be over 1M this year.

So it's historically been about 1/2 of applicants that are approved, and the total number approved has gone up quite a bit the last 2 years. But since the # of applicants has suddenly increased 5x in 2 years, it will probably be closer to 20-25% this year that will be approved. It's something that was kind of a smaller problem that has quickly become a larger one because of the huge increase in applications. Does the US increase the cap because the application number has gone up 5x all of a sudden? More than double the cap has already been approved in 2024, so they are already accounting for that and accepting more. Educated workers are a positive for the economy. But you can start to see where the current situation is more complicated than it seems at first look.

I likely misheard her. She talks really fast when she is upset. Which she was at the time. Part of it was because she bought a house in Outer Sunset in 2021. Which she probably shouldn’t have considering her residency status. On the positive side, her mortgage is 3% and the house had appreciated by 50%. On the negative side, she really does not want to sell the house.

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On the flip side, that number of visas was completely filled, it's not like the US isn't accepting anyone, and it's not like they're not accounting for education. There's just a limit. Remember than every single one of those visas she applied for had similar candidates, possibly superior candidates competing for them.

I'm not saying the immigration system doesn't have problems, I'm just saying this not really one of its failure points.

Once you meet the minimum criteria, H-1B visa is strictly lottery based. Using conservative numbers, we are still looking at losing around 9 in 10 US foreign student graduates to other countries. This time I did look up the stats, and the US retains roughly 14% of US foreign student STEM graduates. A bit better than my estimate.

Putting friendship aside. That’s still a lot of wasted human resources. Valuable employed human resources that pay taxes, open businesses which generate employment and the source of a lot of Intelectual Properties. According to Stanford Business School, US immigrants were directly responsible for 23% and contributed to 13% of US patents issued in the last 26 years. If we had just gotten rid of that pesky quota, the number is likely going to be much higher.

[Endus]

On the flip side, that number of visas was completely filled, it's not like the US isn't accepting anyone, and it's not like they're not accounting for education. There's just a limit. Remember than every single one of those visas she applied for had similar candidates, possibly superior candidates competing for them.

I'm not saying the immigration system doesn't have problems, I'm just saying this not really one of its failure points.

Putting a limit on educated high-skill potential workers entering the country while simultaneously complaining about declining birth rates and population levels, however, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, unless you're a xenophobic racist who's shitting their pants about "white replacement" or some other hilarious bullshit.

If these applicants have active job or education offers, I'm not sure what the point of denying them a visa would be.

I mean, by all means keep it up, Canada's gonna be pretty happy to be on the positive side of the brain drain. Send doctors, kthx.

[Rasulis]

Putting a limit on educated high-skill potential workers entering the country while simultaneously complaining about declining birth rates and population levels, however, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, unless you're a xenophobic racist who's shitting their pants about "white replacement" or some other hilarious bullshit.

If these applicants have active job or education offers, I'm not sure what the point of denying them a visa would be.

Yep. My position is if you are a US grad, you are employed in your field of study, your employer is willing to sponsor, you get a permanent residency visa. Make it easy. Not like the US is currently doing exhaustive background check of H-1B applicants anyway. The US can do that once they started the Green Card process. Also, get rid of the quota for Green Card. If you meet the criteria and you pass background check, you are in.

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Another major benefit.

PWBM estimates that exempting employment-based immigrants with advanced STEM degree from statutory limits would reduce deficits by $129 billion over the 10-year period from 2025 to 2034. Over the following ten years, from 2035 to 2044, deficits would be $634 billion less than under current law.

They don't cost the US anything. Education cost most likely were paid by their parents. Nearly 100% graduated debt free. They are young and don't put any strain on the US medicare and medicaid. Typically high income. No burden on the social security. From the financial perspective, it is win-win situation for the US.

[Sunseeker]

Putting a limit on educated high-skill potential workers entering the country while simultaneously complaining about declining birth rates and population levels, however, doesn't make any sense whatsoever, unless you're a xenophobic racist who's shitting their pants about "white replacement" or some other hilarious bullshit.

Okay? I'm not, and the failure in that context is on racists with racist attitudes. That's not a failure of the immigration system, much less this aspect of it. That's a social failure.

If these applicants have active job or education offers, I'm not sure what the point of denying them a visa would be.

You and Rasulis frame it like this was a personal denial against this, or a similar person, in particular. It isn't. Its wholly impersonal. There are X slots, they were filled, lots of people, this woman included, didn't get one.

Are you suggesting we should have infinite slots for this education level? Because this situation will happen no matter what number we pick, and yes, I do think there should be a number. No, I don't know what the best number is, much more qualified heads than mine can work that out.

I mean, by all means keep it up, Canada's gonna be pretty happy to be on the positive side of the brain drain. Send doctors, kthx.

I am rapidly recalling why I kept you on ignore, even to reasonable statements you have a wholly shitty attitude. The USA is hardly suffering brain drain, considering tens of thousands of applicants were approved.

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I likely misheard her. She talks really fast when she is upset. Which she was at the time. Part of it was because she bought a house in Outer Sunset in 2021. Which she probably shouldn’t have considering her residency status. On the positive side, her mortgage is 3% and the house had appreciated by 50%. On the negative side, she really does not want to sell the house.

- - - Updated - - -



Once you meet the minimum criteria, H-1B visa is strictly lottery based. Using conservative numbers, we are still looking at losing around 9 in 10 US foreign student graduates to other countries. This time I did look up the stats, and the US retains roughly 14% of US foreign student STEM graduates. A bit better than my estimate.

Putting friendship aside. That’s still a lot of wasted human resources. Valuable employed human resources that pay taxes, open businesses which generate employment and the source of a lot of Intelectual Properties. According to Stanford Business School, US immigrants were directly responsible for 23% and contributed to 13% of US patents issued in the last 26 years. If we had just gotten rid of that pesky quota, the number is likely going to be much higher.

Okay, my only take is that there should be a limit. As long as there is a limit, someone is going to get cut. I'm fairly lax in terms of immigration, but it should still have a reasonable cutoff point.

My concerns about its failing points tends to focus ln the difficulties it causes who anyone who isn't an insanely skilled well educated person, looking to make a better life for themselves. These people aren't suffering, and frankly the USA isn't either, from not getting in, obviously as this story demonstrates, the company was multi-national, and was able to get her set up in another comparable nation and position.

[Endus]

Are you suggesting we should have infinite slots for this education level? Because this situation will happen no matter what number we pick, and yes, I do think there should be a number. No, I don't know what the best number is, much more qualified heads than mine can work that out.

Not "infinite", but definitely "close to carrying capacity for the nation's resources". Which current levels are nowhere close to. The USA is not in danger of being overpopulated.

I am rapidly recalling why I kept you on ignore, even to reasonable statements you have a wholly shitty attitude. The USA is hardly suffering brain drain, considering tens of thousands of applicants were approved.

The article's about a skilled worker who's moving to Canada because the USA won't let her stay, even though she's highly educated and long-term employed there.

Me pointing out that Canada is more than willing to open our doors to people such as her is in no way a "shitty attitude". What are you even going off about?

[Rasulis]

Okay, my only take is that there should be a limit. As long as there is a limit, someone is going to get cut. I'm fairly lax in terms of immigration, but it should still have a reasonable cutoff point.

My concerns about its failing points tends to focus ln the difficulties it causes who anyone who isn't an insanely skilled well educated person, looking to make a better life for themselves. These people aren't suffering, and frankly the USA isn't either, from not getting in, obviously as this story demonstrates, the company was multi-national, and was able to get her set up in another comparable nation and position.

I was talking about a very specific subset of foreign STEM workers. Those that graduated from US universities and employed in their field. The number is small enough, that I don't think a quota would be necessary.

I never said that the US is suffering from brain drain by letting other countries have these workers. I do think that the US could do a lot better by retaining them.

[Sunseeker]

I was talking about a very specific subset of foreign STEM workers. Those that graduated from US universities and employed in their field. The number is small enough, that I don't think a quota would be necessary.

I never said that the US is suffering from brain drain by letting other countries have these workers. I do think that the US could do a lot better by retaining them.

Your own post indicates that almost a million people apply for these visas every year. I don't think that is a "small number".

Beyond that, the quota exists to prevent the market from being flooded, driving down labor costs and reducing the desirability of working in that market, or undermining the current workforce.

There has already been substantial evidence of corporations preferring foreign H1B workers to Americans, AND of mistreatment of those workers.

The quotas do more lifting than just "keep the influx low".

[Rasulis]

Your own post indicates that almost a million people apply for these visas every year. I don't think that is a "small number".

Beyond that, the quota exists to prevent the market from being flooded, driving down labor costs and reducing the desirability of working in that market, or undermining the current workforce.

There has already been substantial evidence of corporations preferring foreign H1B workers to Americans, AND of mistreatment of those workers.

The quotas do more lifting than just "keep the influx low".

A million includes those that graduated from foreign universities. Those are mostly brought to the US as low-level techies by companies such as Tata Consultancy Services. Those are the poster child of mistreated foreign H-1B workers.

This also needs to be addressed. Not really sure why the US government has not done anything to curb this practice. Especially those that came here on L-1 visa which is job restrictive.

What I would like to see is for US graduates which are already working in the US on OPT-1 visa, which is granted after graduation, to receive priority over foreign graduates applying for H-1B visa from their respective countries. Which is not the case right now.

[Sunseeker]

What I would like to see is for US graduates which are already working in the US on OPT-1 visa, which is granted after graduation, to receive priority over foreign graduates applying for H-1B visa from their respective countries. Which is not the case right now.

That seems reasonable. I'm not intimately familiar with the priority systems, if any, of the US immigration system, but I think it is reasonable to prioritize those already here.

[Cthulhu 2020]

US immigration policy has needed a major revamp since the 90's. Conservatives broke the immigration system by firing off most of the people who process and oversee immigration cases, and have been using that broken system as an excuse to claim we just need to shut down immigration. Yes, when they say "Shut down the border" they don't mean make daily limits or yearly limits on how many. They mean they want ZERO people crossing the border to immigrate. Which is a practical impossibility.

Of course you could build a massive wall, have it patrolled by thousands and thousands of border patrol agents, but that would cost a small fortune and people would still figure ways into the country. But then as a solution to that they say we just need more ICE agents to find, catch and deport illegals. i.e. they want carte blanche to have their own little fascist police state to deport whoever they want. Anyone who looks "Brown enough"

[Rasulis]

That seems reasonable. I'm not intimately familiar with the priority systems, if any, of the US immigration system, but I think it is reasonable to prioritize those already here.

The system is pretty convoluted.

International students attend college in the US on F-1 visa which is school specific. After graduation, the F-1 student visa then becomes an Optional Practical Training (OPT) visa. They are given a year to find a job. Once they find a job, they can extend the OPT visa for a total of 3 years.

If they want to stay beyond that 3 years period and become permanent residence, they, or their employers, have to apply for an H-1B work visa—along with everyone else trying to immigrate to America. The bolded underline is the kicker. We have PhDs from top US universities working in high end research in random lottery for H-1B visa with IT graduates from Delhi University applying from India. To me that's insane.