The Machine of Death Broke - Why?

[Jester Joe]

Don't see what the players have to do with it. Also, the Spirit Healers are Watchers, yes. They're another branch of Kyrian from the Bearers and Ascended. Don't see the issue here. Just means the Kyrian have different types of roles.

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And why are you talking "semantics"?

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That doesn't go against what I'm saying. Like I said, that just means not every Kyrian has the same job.

Again, I repeat, what you're saying changes nothing except to argue some "well ACTUALLY" moment.
And I get people love that kind of stuff, but again it's just semantics.

Whether or not Spirit healers are kyrian is pointless because they're not the ones who ferry souls like the original post tried to claim.

They have absolutely nothing to do with the Mawsworn either or those who serve the Jailer. You shouldn't jump into two people's discussion to try to claim someone has no idea what they're talking about if you have no idea what the discussion is about.

[TheFirstOnes]

Helya going to the maw doesn't mean she didn't belong there. She's one of the worst, so I don't see why she wouldn't fit there.

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Anima is life force that exists in the shadowlands... What in canon event mentions anima in the material plane? I don't see how Argus would have used anima.

Because Argus' magics are similar, and he's the Death Titan (Or, at the very least, was becoming the Death Titan VIA Sargeras)?

Also, canonically, there are mentions of it in Legion and BFA, but it's unknown if that's just figurative speech, or whatnot.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...Anima_of_Souls https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ani...Life_and_Death

And there is a form of Anima in the ToT, but it's not the same as the Anima from within the Shadowlands (Since SL Anima is of Mortal souls, while the Dark Animus was infused by corrupted Order beings and their "Anima").

But outside of that, Anima is within every mortal being within the Shadowlands, and the Legion has a ton of mortal souls, as well as connections with Death itself. Why would Sargeras not be able to use Anima in his own sadistic way?

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Again, I repeat, what you're saying changes nothing except to argue some "well ACTUALLY" moment.
And I get people love that kind of stuff, but again it's just semantics.

Whether or not Spirit healers are kyrian is pointless because they're not the ones who ferry souls like the original post tried to claim.

They have absolutely nothing to do with the Mawsworn either or those who serve the Jailer. You shouldn't jump into two people's discussion to try to claim someone has no idea what they're talking about if you have no idea what the discussion is about.

Why are you acting like I'm trying to be part of the discussion? Idc about the Mawsworn. Of course I'm gonna say you don't know what you're talking about regarding the Kyrian "not being spirit healers", cause it's wrong. I mean, if I was a little harsh there, I'm sorry. But still, what I posted wasn't about your whole discussion to begin with. I was just correcting you.

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It makes total sense if Argus soul was meant for revendreth for redemption, and Deni-boi sent it back.

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I agree. Part of the problem of how storytelling worked this expansion is that we don't get the full story by playing 1 covenant

At most, Argus' magics were probably sent back? Cause Sargeras seemed to have infused the blue around Argus' body, as he spawns all Red and fucked up, and in the Mythic Version, Sargeras corrupts that magic. So, maybe the corrupted magics went back to Oribos? If it's Anima, then hey, why not...

But Argus himself cannot go to the Shadowlands. He's a Titan.

[FuxieDK]

Xavius died within hours of Ursoc at most. Ursoc spent some time being nursed before the drought began. So Xavius is out.

1: There is no evidence (hard or circumstantial) to indicate drought and Arbiter break down is connected
2: Cut scene shows that Arbiter is working at 100%, a red orb appears and 3 seconds later she is down. Minutes, hours, days, months, years, millenia.. Doesn't matter, when the process takes seconds.

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Helya going to the maw doesn't mean she didn't belong there. She's one of the worst, so I don't see why she wouldn't fit there.

Except she isn't THAT BAD.. She's bad, yes, but not Gul'dan or Kel'thuzad level of badness.

It's virtually impossible to go directly to the Maw. You will normally go to Revendreth first.

Gul'dan seemingly didn't go to the Maw
Lady Vash'j went to Maldraxxus
Deathwing seemingly didn't go to the Maw
Kael'thas is currently in Revendreth
Kel'thuzad went to Maldraxxus

All of there are more likely candidates, for a direct ticket to the Maw, than Helya.

[huth]

At most, Argus' magics were probably sent back? Cause Sargeras seemed to have infused the blue around Argus' body, as he spawns all Red and fucked up, and in the Mythic Version, Sargeras corrupts that magic. So, maybe the corrupted magics went back to Oribos? If it's Anima, then hey, why not...

But Argus himself cannot go to the Shadowlands. He's a Titan.

I can't remember which one, but in one of the interviews they mentioned that the Anima used by the Titans is different from the one we see in the Shadowlands, so there's little reason to assume it went to the Shadowlands. Anima doesn't seem to be native to the Shadowlands anyway, that's why they need a constant supply of new souls.

1: There is no evidence (hard or circumstantial) to indicate drought and Arbiter break down is connected

Wat.

You do realise that we're directly shown in-game that the Arbiter breaking down and no longer sorting souls is exactly what caused the Drought? It's not just connected, we know it is the immediate cause.

2: Cut scene shows that Arbiter is working at 100%, a red orb appears and 3 seconds later she is down. Minutes, hours, days, months, years, millenia.. Doesn't matter, when the process takes seconds.

Which is why it can't be Xavius. It would be too soon after Ursoc arrived in Ardenweald, as we know he had been there for some time before the Drought began.

[Eosia]

Helya was the first Va'kyr, she should be able to deliver herself to the Maw, if the Arbiter didn't send her there herself. I mean, working with the Jailer himself to cause death and destruction onto the world is pretty Maw worthy.

Also, Helya being in the Shadowlands is pretty evident that no such Titan afterlife exists. Therefore, Argus too must have gone to the Shadowlands.

Helya is not a Titan though. She's a Titan-forged creation specific to Azeroth. Which would mean that we, technically, would not go to the Shadowlands either as all the mortal races of Azeroth are descendants of Titan-forged in one way or another.

And we actually do know why Helya is in the Maw... Muah'zala brought her there. " It be Mueh'zala who brought Helya to da Jailer's side... struck a deal for ol' Odyn's eye... and made da Banshee warchief with a whisper!"

Souls are not sent directly to the Maw. They are sent to Revendreth in an attempt to reform the spirit; Only of that fails, they will be sent to the Maw, but it takes a long time. Thus, Helya haven't had time to be attempted to be reformed and deemed hopeless yet..

Just take a look at Kael'thas... They have barely started with him, and he died several years prior to Helya...

And both Varian and Vol'jin died long before Ursoc.

No. The Maw IS the destination for some souls the Arbiter deems irredeemable. Prior to her deactivation, that number was very few, but some still did end up there by defautl. Revendreth is just a chance for souls to be redeemed even if they did terrible things in life such as Garrosh and Kael'thas.

[TheFirstOnes]

I can't remember which one, but in one of the interviews they mentioned that the Anima used by the Titans is different from the one we see in the Shadowlands, so there's little reason to assume it went to the Shadowlands. Anima doesn't seem to be native to the Shadowlands anyway, that's why they need a constant supply of new souls.



Wat.

You do realise that we're directly shown in-game that the Arbiter breaking down and no longer sorting souls is exactly what caused the Drought? It's not just connected, we know it is the immediate cause.



Which is why it can't be Xavius. It would be too soon after Ursoc arrived in Ardenweald, as we know he had been there for some time before the Drought began.

I talked about the Titan stuff yesterday.

[huth]

I talked about the Titan stuff yesterday.

Your point being?

[TheFirstOnes]

Your point being?

My point being...

I already addressed it.

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So, I don't get what you're trying to argue here.

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Also, I don't think Argus' "power" was "Titan Anima". It's very likely Sargeras just infused Argus with the power of Anima from the Shadowlands. Hell, the Titans and the Eternal Ones have connections, and Eonar (Through Freya) made the Emerald Dream VIA taking it from the Plane of Life. So, Titans fucking with other Cosmic Powers ain't all out of the loop either. Hell, the Dreadlords literally made the Legion do the LK plot as a means of providing themselves a "third invasion", even tho in reality the Jailer fucked with them.

And regarding the "interview", all that was said is that the Anima from the Dark Animus (Which was infused by Titan Constructs) is not the same as the stuff from the Shadowlands, that's it.

[UndedoKoleda]

I don't know who broke the Machine of Death, but I can guess which event made the Jailer and his minions make their move on the Arbiter.

IMO it was the imprisonment of Sargeras. The Jailer sensed/knew that the biggest bad in the material universe is out of the equation, thus it was the time to set the final part of his plan in motion. Without the Legion and Sargeras around, the "mortal world" is up for the taking.

Sure, there are other cosmic forces and whatnot, but it's pretty obvious that the Legion were the most dangerous army out there. The Void Lords can't manifest themselves for very long, and as we saw in Northrend, Death entities are immune to mind control/games/whispers, making the Void weaker in a rock scissors paper sense against Death. We know very little about Life and Light, but from what we've seen they are not a Legion level threat. They just don't seem as made-for-war forces, unlike the Legion, which sole purpose is/was to destroy everything and unmake the universe.

[FuxieDK]

No. The Maw IS the destination for some souls the Arbiter deems irredeemable. Prior to her deactivation, that number was very few, but some still did end up there by defautl. Revendreth is just a chance for souls to be redeemed even if they did terrible things in life such as Garrosh and Kael'thas.

I know it was theoretically possible to go directly to the Maw, which is why I listed 5 (where 3 are 100% confirmed NOT to go directly to the Maw) that were much much worse than Helya.

Helya was much much less bad than Kel'thuzad, and he was sent directly to Maldraxxus. Not even Revendreth. Helya would NEVER go directly to the Maw with a working Arbiter.

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I can't remember which one, but in one of the interviews they mentioned that the Anima used by the Titans is different from the one we see in the Shadowlands, so there's little reason to assume it went to the Shadowlands. Anima doesn't seem to be native to the Shadowlands anyway, that's why they need a constant supply of new souls.



Wat.

You do realise that we're directly shown in-game that the Arbiter breaking down and no longer sorting souls is exactly what caused the Drought? It's not just connected, we know it is the immediate cause.



Which is why it can't be Xavius. It would be too soon after Ursoc arrived in Ardenweald, as we know he had been there for some time before the Drought began.

The drought started BEFORE Arbiter broke down. We see that in the Ardenweald animation video..

[huth]

My point being...

I already addressed it.

Except that was your last comment on the matter at the time, so you quite clearly hadn't. Get your own timeline straight.

The drought started BEFORE Arbiter broke down. We see that in the Ardenweald animation video..

No, we don't. There is nothing in that animation that tells you when it happens relative to the Arbiter's shutdown, but everything surrounding the latter, including being explicitly told about it, that suggests that it caused the drought.

Helya would NEVER go directly to the Maw with a working Arbiter.

She likely bypassed the normal system entirely, so the Arbiter is irrelevant to her.

[TheFirstOnes]

Except that was your last comment on the matter at the time, so you quite clearly hadn't. Get your own timeline straight.

What are you talking about? This was the last thing I said on the matter.

"Because Argus' magics are similar, and he's the Death Titan (Or, at the very least, was becoming the Death Titan VIA Sargeras)?

Also, canonically, there are mentions of it in Legion and BFA, but it's unknown if that's just figurative speech, or whatnot.

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twi...Anima_of_Souls https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ani...Life_and_Death

And there is a form of Anima in the ToT, but it's not the same as the Anima from within the Shadowlands (Since SL Anima is of Mortal souls, while the Dark Animus was infused by corrupted Order beings and their "Anima").

But outside of that, Anima is within every mortal being within the Shadowlands, and the Legion has a ton of mortal souls, as well as connections with Death itself. Why would Sargeras not be able to use Anima in his own sadistic way?"

Like, dude. Just scroll up.

[Dazmalak]

My theory is that it really doesn't matter who or what broke it. The dumbass Shadowlands plot they came up with had to have a "reason", so here we are. Was it Argus? Was it Xavius? Was it Sephiroth summoning Meteor in the wrong place? Hell, maybe it was Trump. Whoever or whatever it is doesn't matter though, because it accomplished the task of making the Jailer a "threat"...which is a far worse crime given how utterly boring he is.

[Polybius]

/facepalm

You can tell that many didn't read the lore. It hurts.

[Traveler Voltin]

/facepalm

You can tell that many didn't read the lore. It hurts.

which ones are you talking about?

[tocoman]

I believe what we saw was N’zoth piercing the arbiter to fulfill what his minions said:
“Even death may die”

Also Danusers statement that when a door closes for n’zoth he would find a window

Also the projectile soul sounds like one of N’zoths spell effects when it hits and its the same firey orange/red that permeates n’zoth

[Traveler Voltin]

I believe what we saw was N’zoth piercing the arbiter to fulfill what his minions said:
“Even death may die”

Also Danusers statement that when a door closes for n’zoth he would find a window

Also the projectile soul sounds like one of N’zoths spell effects when it hits and its the same firey orange/red that permeates n’zoth

that is way too late in the timeline

[tocoman]

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that is way too late in the timeline

All my research shows that it happened between emerald nightmare and now. My timeline of events shows us killing Nzoth to fit nicely in there.

[Traveler Voltin]

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All my research shows that it happened between emerald nightmare and now. My timeline of events shows us killing Nzoth to fit nicely in there.

everything broke during Legion. blizzard confirmed this.

[tocoman]

everything broke during Legion. blizzard confirmed this.

I guess I would need to see said confirmation