20 man mythic recruitment killing my guild...what about you?

[HolyCowBro]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

[kenn9530]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

Mythic is just fine as it is, some guilds are just not made to go far in mythic raiding as there is always a point where the players are just not skilled enough to clear the content while its current. Mythic raiding is too difficult for average players as its not desinged to be done by them, flex mythic would just not work as some fights would be easier and some would be harder so you would still need a certain amount of players so you could do the content as easy as possible.

[Freedom]

I think looking at the progress of this thread will answer your question: I think SL is just not very popular and that people are leaving left and right, meaning your attempts to recruit will not be very successful.

[Chilela]

I'd wager there's simply an imbalance of raiding guilds vs. raiders looking for a guild. When SL hit, there was a huge pool of people playing, likely a number of returners as well, so as a result, odds are a number of new guilds were formed to keep up with demand for raiding positions. Now that less people raid, a number of raiding guilds are likely just going to dissolve, with a combination of people quitting or moving to other player-hungry guilds. It's very possible you may just need to merge your core into another guild at this point.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I'd wager there's simply an imbalance of raiding guilds vs. raiders looking for a guild. When SL hit, there was a huge pool of people playing, likely a number of returners as well, so as a result, odds are a number of new guilds were formed to keep up with demand for raiding positions. Now that less people raid, a number of raiding guilds are likely just going to dissolve, with a combination of people quitting or moving to other player-hungry guilds. It's very possible you may just need to merge your core into another guild at this point.

This is it. You're recruiting at the worst possible time. Lots of people have quit, and there's no real indication of when the new content will be out, so players are just leaving. Expect a few to start returning when the PTR hits and we see what the Torghast raid looks like.

[potis]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

There is no long term solution, this comes up every expansion right before each patch cycle cause lots of people quit because well, there is no good way to say this, selfishness, but at the same time others can argue "Its just a game" or w/e else, expansion hoppers destroy multiple guilds each time, your guild is just another victim.

You just didnt have people with the same mentality, or the passive required responsibility towards fellow players (This last part is almost non-existent in WoW lately).

Even if things become 10man, it only delays the inevitable unless you have equally minded people to survive long term.

Now combine it with the obvious lack of skillful new blood since the new generation is a bit towards more casual quick gratification, and you have your problem.

[exochaft]

There's tons of things that go into the difficulty for recruiting for mythic raiding, and I'll just name a few of the highlights that I've dealt with recently (certainly not the only issues).

The not-so-secret secret is that Horde has a much larger population interested in mythic raiding, regional exceptions apply. Recruiting for mythic raiding as Alliance in my region usually generates laughter since the population is so skewed for this activity. Beyond raiding, even M+ on Horde side has many more options than Alliance typically does. This is an issue that's been around for a while.

Furthermore, the WoW population itself and their behaviors/attitudes combined with in-game design are not conducive to mythic raiding, or at the very least is trending away from the activity. Without delving into every facet in detail, the overarching issue is that mythic raiding is just not worth it if you're concerned about gear. Right now, the ease of gearing ranks (easiest to hardest): PvP > M+ >> raiding. Only reason to raid mythic is just to kill the bosses, and the design and philosophy behind the difficulty and reward structure even make just killing bosses not enticing. If we circle back to recruiting, it's not uncommon to get the response "Why would I mythic raid? I can PvP or M+ and get all the gear much faster and with less effort." Even if we just talk PvE, clearing ten M+ dungeons at +14 or higher is immensely easier and potentially less time-consuming than actually mythic raiding in a given week.

In terms of bench retention, Shadowlands really isn't great. The old raidID system is still in effect only for mythic raiding, making pugging or getting pinch-hitters or friends or sister guilds coming in to help usually impossible (not even delving into cross-realm, which is disabled when most guilds are progessing). The weekly Vault only works if you kill bosses; in terms of mythic raid loot, not only does having a bench make this Vault system pointless for benched individuals for a chance at mythic loot (or add another aspect to manage), but also makes extending a raid for progression makes the Vault system pointless. Now I will say that the systems aren't the only factor that make retention of a bench harder, as the loot system is equally as important as mentioned before.

In the end, I think there's certainly a sizable portion of the population that is willing and able to successfully mythic raid. The problem is that the combination of the raiding loot system being inferior to every other end-game aspect of the game, mythic raiding being the least accessible content in the game due to things like raidID lockouts, server restrictions, etc, and a shift in the player population's wants/needs make mythic raiding just not attractive as it once may have been. Mythic raiding needs to be way more appealing and rewarding than it's current state if Blizz wants to keep all its restrictions in a world here I can pug my way to mythic raid level gear with little time investment with other end-game content.

[erifwodahs]

I'd wager there's simply an imbalance of raiding guilds vs. raiders looking for a guild.

This. There are still a lot of guilds who are on their dream pursuit to raid mythic, but they are just massive inflation due to new expansion hype, therefore there are a lot of recruiters and not that many free agents.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Yeah, it killed mine back in WoD. Couldn't scale the guild up when every guild was trying to recruit and people were quitting the game in droves. I think they never should've made 20man Mythic, it should've remained 10/25man because the push for most 10man guilds to scale up to Mythic lead to a massive loss guilds when you add in how poor player retention was in WoD.

I don't have any hope for ever raiding again until they get rid of 20man Mythic, I hate both the format (20 people is too many, you wind up with cliques within the guild instead of one cohesive group) and the logistics of getting enough people. The diminished individual responsibility makes me feel less useful as an individual and harder for me to find any sense of reward or achievement from downing a boss. I never liked 25man raiding (outside GDKP runs) because of the social environment in them.

[clevin]

I don't know what the solution could be, but recruiting 20+ people for core and bench is starting to look like an impossible task at this very moment. I would even speculate it's easier to recruit 40 people in classic than it is to recruit 20 people for mythic in retail at the moment, and that's quite ridiculous.

My solution proposal would be obvious, reduce the number of people required for mythic content. 15? 10? again, this is the only thing I can really think of, as making mythic content scale-like LFR, normal, and heroic does would just be a balancing nightmare.

We are on a "full" pop server, US Thrall with plenty of people. The problem is related to not enough talent being out there to fill the roles. Is the content too difficult for the average player? is Raider.IO part of the problem? again, I don't know what the solution could possibly be, but there's definitely something going on with recruitment that is making it really hard to make a consistent roster.

OR... don't wait until this late in the patch to recruit for Mythic.

[razorpax]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

More personal responsibility, more emphasis on actual gameplay and less on garbage logistics. I don't care if people think more people feels more epic. Recruiting is terrible.


I'm sure you'll get the contrarians that come in and be like pffft just recruit harder or be better so people wanna join your guild loser because that's all people in this forum do. rofl

Yeah....then you get either the T11 situation or the MoP situation

Putting aside the fact more people adds a grander scale to the bosses let’s look at mechanics

The chains on sludgefist would mean you need at least 4 melee
You can make up that with two melee healers but if any die you are screwed

Well then you change the mechanic to work with 10 man allowing you to only need two melee which allows more stacking of ranged players meaning higher damage output and you essentially trivialize the mechanic

Well what about traps on artificer
Less players means fewer immunities

Sire gets fewer adds

“These bosses were designed for 20 so they don’t count” exactly
The bosses were designed around the fact that your group will have at least 1 of each class if necessary and that is much more interesting than any possible design that has to kneecap itself because you don’t have a Druid or a DK

[clevin]

...Furthermore, the WoW population itself and their behaviors/attitudes combined with in-game design are not conducive to mythic raiding, or at the very least is trending away from the activity. Without delving into every facet in detail, the overarching issue is that mythic raiding is just not worth it if you're concerned about gear. ...

Or worth it at all. Look, how many guilds who don't currently have a mythic-capable roster have 20+ people who really want to do normal, then heroic, then mythic? Guilds that raid mythic regularly will skip normal so they're just doing heroic a bit, then moving on. But for any guild that starts a patch without a group in place, they're likely going through N and H... and if they're just recruiting for M, they are likely pretty burnt out.

Now, consider the above - why are you doing it? Not for gear. At this point in the patch, not for bragging rights. And with the population issues on Alliance... why bother? Then add in this - any mythic ready player likely has a guild at this point in 9.0x or they've stepped away from mythic raiding.

[Gaidax]

What's your progress?

As soon as we got 10/10, we got plenty of actually good applications going in. And we're Alliance on empty server at that. Now our differentiator is that we're one of few 2 night/6 hours a week guilds that get Famed every now and then, but I'd say 10/10 guilds should be pretty in the clear as far as recruitment goes.

If you're one of the feeder/stepping stone guilds, I can see the issue. This was a thing all the way back from TBC, people just use guilds like that as a way to get upgraded to better guild in future, so you get poached and recruitment is shit.

[deenman]

I think looking at the progress of this thread will answer your question: I think SL is just not very popular and that people are leaving left and right, meaning your attempts to recruit will not be very successful.

has zero to do with the imaginary people leaving thing,legion had plenty of people and there were still plenty of people complaining about recruitment,my guild did every cutting edge and we had recruitment issues every single tier

i cant even begin to imagine how much harder it is on people with less progress

[Bigbazz]

My guild started late and so did I but we've been making steady progress through Mythic, that said the last weeks it has been a trouble to fill raids and despite us pushing forward we have had to cancel a raid. I think that's not a new problem at all though, infact I know it's not a new problem because it has plagued all of my guilds going back many expansions.

Typically most guilds that don't clear a tier early in a patch will not clear at all because players lose interest and recruitment is difficult. The only time this isn't true is with end of expansion raids that last like a year, and those still kill lots of guilds but new ones form and have time to go in and clear the now heavily nerfed/overgeared raid.

Pick any modern expansion and at this point of a patch recruitment is difficult, players lost interest and guilds who could have cleared mythic end up folding.

[eschatological]

Our guild fell apart in Tomb of Sargeras on M-Avatar (pretty deep in the raid, right before KJ), and I was raidleader at the time, so I have some thoughts.

I generally think if you're not in top 50 in your region (maybe smaller for smaller regions, but I'm US), you're gonna have problems with recruiting. It can be difficult on small servers, where you have to convince people to transfer, and it can be hard on big servers where you're competing with a whole bunch of mid-tier mythic guilds all around halfway thru the mythic instance. I like looking up strategies, fitting them to our group and our abilities and who is good at what. I don't mind being a raid leader, either. But recruiting is painful, and none of our officers or I had any success with it. Everyone, past about a month into a tier, want a guild that's got like practically the whole instance on farm. Or they just want to do progression on the last boss. And this isn't necessarily the fault of the raider him/herself, they just want to be able to make a smooth transition. When my guild broke up with only two bosses left in ToS, I didn't want to reprogress on bosses I had already killed, so it immediately limited my search to guilds who were progressing on M-Avatar/M-KJ, or had it down. It's natural to not want to go backwards. A lot of this has to do with the de-stigmitization of guild-hopping, which is now seen as the route to becoming a top 10 raider (and I'm not sure I disagree with it necessarily).

Yeah....then you get either the T11 situation or the MoP situation

Putting aside the fact more people adds a grander scale to the bosses let’s look at mechanics

The chains on sludgefist would mean you need at least 4 melee
You can make up that with two melee healers but if any die you are screwed

Well then you change the mechanic to work with 10 man allowing you to only need two melee which allows more stacking of ranged players meaning higher damage output and you essentially trivialize the mechanic

Well what about traps on artificer
Less players means fewer immunities

Sire gets fewer adds

“These bosses were designed for 20 so they don’t count” exactly
The bosses were designed around the fact that your group will have at least 1 of each class if necessary and that is much more interesting than any possible design that has to kneecap itself because you don’t have a Druid or a DK

The T11 situation? Did you play T11 in 10 man? I did. Sinestra was basically unkillable by a 10 man guild for months. It took a 25 man guild that had Sinestra on farm funneling 25 man loot (which dropped more) to their top 10 players to kill 10 man Sinestra. Nefarian required insanely weird stacking to get enough interrupts on the pillars. Conclave required you to 1 or 2 man platforms without healers, and Al-Akir you had to have people all around the platform maybe only in the range of one healer. Cleaving the lightning was too much damage to outheal. On Ragnaros you could only have one firefighter, who had to cover the whole platform. On H-Blackhorn you got the same number of zones to soak as 25 man, and the damage done was only about half of 25 man even though they generally ahd 1/3rd of the people covering them. I was top 20 in H-DS, and we had to one tank, 2 heal Madness of Deathwing with me (as the hunter) impale soaking. To be sure, there were some much easier fights on 10 man, Spine comes to mind, and many of the earlier bosses in instances. But there were also bosses which were much harder. But I definitely preferred 10 man. And I definitely think the balancing between the two wasn't worth it. But I would have preferred 10 man to be the hardcore format, and 25 the casual format, and just ramp everything up to insane levels. A lot of people complained that 10 man players didn't do as much damage as 25 man players, but that's because every individual player had more responsibility for raid mechanics. Ramp up the damage requirements, and you'd have some insane progression in 10 man.

In MoP, the same issues arose. The vehicle boss in HoF was a nightmare for 10 man if you had just 1 who didn't know how to kite seeds, whereas in 25 man you could sacrifice that person. Will of the Emperor, you usually only had one person who could CC the adds in the back. Empress was probably easier on 10 man. Lei Shen was probably a bit easier, but you had 2 people covering a quadrant and if you didn't have a lock gateway to get places quickly it could be a nightmare. By Garrosh, I was in a 25 man raid because they had announced the death of 10 man, so I can't speak to that.

[kenn9530]

It's like you didn't read what he said and just posted nonsense. He said balancing would be a nightmare if it was flex scaling. Called it with my OG post.

He stated to reduce it to 10 or 15 players so its you who didnt read what he posted, 20 players is the perfect balance for a raid so if guilds are unable to gather enough players they just are not suited to raid mythic.

even without scaling some bosses are always easier or harder.

[HolyCowBro]

OR... don't wait until this late in the patch to recruit for Mythic.

This is a really shitty take. We have been progressing since launch as a new guild, working our way up from normal > heroic > into mythic. Yeah, not ideal but we started with nothing, and some members had little experience. They were bodies, now they are core raiders and do pretty well. We're 8/10M currently, we just need more people to be consistent, but the problem is that as others have said, there's not a whole lot of free agents going around currently.

- - - Updated - - -

He stated to reduce it to 10 or 15 players so its you who didnt read what he posted, 20 players is the perfect balance for a raid so if guilds are unable to gather enough players they just are not suited to raid mythic.

False, another shitty take from MMO champ /clap

[Baleful]

10man>>>>>>>>20man

More personal responsibility, more emphasis on actual gameplay and less on garbage logistics. I don't care if people think more people feels more epic. Recruiting is terrible.


I'm sure you'll get the contrarians that come in and be like pffft just recruit harder or be better so people wanna join your guild loser because that's all people in this forum do. rofl

With ten man you will have twice as much guilds and the same problem, lots of guilds with 8-9 people searching for 2-3 guys. Every expansion start lots of guilds come back or get funded; but people stop playing and some have to dissapear because there is not enough players for them all, that's it.

[vsb]

I returned to WoW in Legion and played in 5 guilds since then. Every one of those guilds had plenty of issues recruiting new people and end up being unable to raid because not enough people => raids cancelled => competent players left => end of story.

My solution would be to introduce slightly flexible format for mythic raids. Something like 17-23. It's flexible enough to be able to recruit enough people, not having them benched in Wednesday and not having raid cancelled because of few people not showing up and it's hard enough to break encounters.

It should be enabled along with cross-server raiding after first 10 horde guilds kill the last boss. The race is over, nobody really cares about balance at this point.

Just reducing raid size will not help, as all problems will remain. Even at bigger scale. I was RL in Cataclysm and I know well all the issues of 10-man raid. They're not fundamentally different and smaller raid sizes introduce its own issues (like some class being required for some encounters).

I'm tired of those issues as I hate to switch guilds and constantly adapt to new people. So I'll stop playing WoW soon enough and that issue is one of the most important game problems for me.

It's funny that SL made those issues even worse in one aspect. If you want an item from raid chest, you need to kill 3 bosses. If you're benched, you won't have that item. Oops. Now nobody wants to be benched, even if you don't need loot from those bosses. This aspect was not well thought-out.