PvP Item Levels in Chains of Domination

[Quaade]

But this is still the case for pvpers? even after the change, 233 is a single slot in pve, and multiple in pve, while 226 gear from m+ and entry bosses in raid is still required for optimal minmaxing in pvp
it will always be like this unless you literally make pvp entry level (like 190) in pve, and scale to above mythic raid loot in pvp, which is just terrible

and to your last point, 2100 in arena is alot harder for most of the playerbase to achieve, than heroic bosses, so it should be higher ilvl, especially with the "downside" of pvp gear having a high vers investment, which alone should make it compete with atleast some 213 pieces on most classes

I made a post on the EU WEoW forum. This change solves nothing. It reduces one thing and makes several other impossible and does nothing to change some of the really problematic things present in PvP.

https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...nothing/270474

[Kaykay]

Neither of those 2 games are anything close to wow arena. Literally. Not the same, in any form or fashion. I know it's hard for you to believe, but some players only login to wow for instanced, competitive, rated pvp.

Removing gear progression from pvp, makes it a minigame, like pet battles, MMO's are about leveling up, getting better gear, becoming more powerfull.

Sure a handfull of people pvp for the fun of it, but as participation in pvp has shown since MOP, if there's no rewards to be gained, people wont play it.

My point is that other games do arena gameplay better, WOW is one of the few games with the MMORPG angle, and removing pvp gear from the game just turns it into a pointless endeavour from the average player POV.

Take emphasis off of gear as a reward and base rewards around cosmetic things. Its better that way.

It worked back in Wrath where maybe 2-3 cool flying mounts or titles existed, but in todays age you got 500+ mounts, some of them more graphically impressive than the hardest raid/pvp mounts, coming from the payed store, new tiersets are somewhat cool, but with transmog everyone is wearing their welfare grandmarshall gear anyways.

Cosmetics have lost almost all their appeal, they're a nice collectors thing, but nobody spends 6 months progressing the current mythic raid for cosmetics. And raid participation in Shadowlands shows that when raids aren't very rewarding, fewer people will play them, same goes for PVP and M+.

That's why going back to a raid or die situation, rather than make every solution viable, is a bad solution imo.

IMO PvP was the only gear system that actually worked in season 1 shadowlands. They need to bring up m+ and raids, not dump on pvp.

[neescher]

Well we used a bank before, not just our bags only. You never had room for all the gear to be in your bags. You would always have to swap things out or plan out your bags before a raid if you planned on switching gear. Now we just don't need a bank as much as we did back then.

That's what I'm saying now, it's even easier now... bags are larger, access to the bank is easier

[Frosteye]

It’s not even close to the WoD version because there is still massive gaps between unranked conquest and 2100 conquest.

In WoD all conquest gear was equal.

I agree, I think that should be the next step

[nocturnus]

haha

when complaining back-fires ^^

[Luxeley]

There is good and bad attached to this like anything WOW or life. Overall, I think the good slightly outweighs the bad, but that all depends on your perspective and end game of choice. The good: Pve heroes will no longer two-shot players at lower rating levels (<1800) and Pvpers aren't forced to do M+ or raid to be competitive in pvp. The bad: participation in Pvp will probably go down a bit. However, the latter could be off-set by offering more rewards with both more anima and gear (perhaps %based loot drops in boxes). I'd imagine there are other ways to off-set the former. Not putting so much punch into masteries is probably one of them, but that sort of thing can't be completely redesigned in mid xpac. The other problem is players hitting 2100 and gaining an advantage in Pve with a high end weapon in raiding and M+

I am strongly in favor of this move. Wod pvp, more or less, happened to be the best version of pvp Blizzard offered. But, I can't help but think this is the quick and easy way out for Blizzard/ The nozzles might've been turned in a different way for better results rather than quick results this time.

[Recovery]

Removing gear progression from pvp, makes it a minigame, like pet battles, MMO's are about leveling up, getting better gear, becoming more powerfull.

Sure a handfull of people pvp for the fun of it, but as participation in pvp has shown since MOP, if there's no rewards to be gained, people wont play it.

My point is that other games do arena gameplay better, WOW is one of the few games with the MMORPG angle, and removing pvp gear from the game just turns it into a pointless endeavour from the average player POV.



It worked back in Wrath where maybe 2-3 cool flying mounts or titles existed, but in todays age you got 500+ mounts, some of them more graphically impressive than the hardest raid/pvp mounts, coming from the payed store, new tiersets are somewhat cool, but with transmog everyone is wearing their welfare grandmarshall gear anyways.

Cosmetics have lost almost all their appeal, they're a nice collectors thing, but nobody spends 6 months progressing the current mythic raid for cosmetics. And raid participation in Shadowlands shows that when raids aren't very rewarding, fewer people will play them, same goes for PVP and M+.

That's why going back to a raid or die situation, rather than make every solution viable, is a bad solution imo.

IMO PvP was the only gear system that actually worked in season 1 shadowlands. They need to bring up m+ and raids, not dump on pvp.

"Sure a handfull of people pvp for the fun of it, but as participation in pvp has shown since MOP, if there's no rewards to be gained, people wont play it." Weird how all of the people who are already gear capped in pvp still play (ALOT), yet there are no further gear rewards.. Wod was dead because of templates. Templates didnt allow players to choose their stats. Thats why it was dead. Legion was huge for pvp. Dont know what youre talking about. BFA was a huge clustered mess of OP pve items one shotting each other.

"My point is that other games do arena gameplay better, WOW is one of the few games with the MMORPG angle, and removing pvp gear from the game just turns it into a pointless endeavour from the average player POV." Yeah, no MMORPG does pvp gameplay better than wow and were talking wow, so why even take the time to write this irrelevant statement? Also, I dont think anyone would want gear to be removed, but I also dont think people care much for the progression of the gear. The only reason we even care about gear at all is because we want to CHOOSE our stat builds. This is why templates didnt work (you couldnt choose what stats to stack or ignore), not because we didnt have shiny new pieces to equip.

"It worked back in Wrath where maybe 2-3 cool flying mounts or titles existed, but in todays age you got 500+ mounts, some of them more graphically impressive than the hardest raid/pvp mounts, coming from the payed store" The difference in those 500+ mounts and graphically impressive mounts coming from the store is that literally ANYONE can get them. The thing that makes glad mounts, M+ 15's mount, etc cool is that they are rare and not any old joe can get them. Again, people like having things that not everyone can get. Do you know how many people a day are in awe of my vengeful nether drake? Do you know how many people Gawk at my vengeful gladiator title? Do you know how many people are jealous of my Wrathful Gladiator's Tabard? Definitely more than the amount that is envious of a faction mount, store mount, or the Fae transmog. lol. This is why I enjoy cosmetic awards from arena and could care less about equipping a new item that does the same thing the last item did.

One bad thing about this change specifically is that the RBG bracket may die again. Its been more lively than its been for quite some time. Probably because it really only has one reward tier (hero). No mounts or anything else. Sad day

[Toby451]

Great change. Soooo happy I dont have to grind PvP rating again for BiS PvE gear.

[Debased]

What about versatility? That's basically the differentiator now. Assuming vers. still comes standard on all PVP gear it sounds like even mythic raid gear is going to be garbage in high-ranked PVP.

[Sanguinerd]

PvP gear worked fine for years but nah.. let's add unnecessary scaling and ilvls to rating instead of just making 1 set for honor and 1 for conq and having that be that. High rating should be rewarded with cosmetics, not ilvl.

Way to make shit more complicated for no reason Blizzard.

Just add a god damn PvP stat.

[Recovery]

PvP gear worked fine for years but nah.. let's add unnecessary scaling and ilvls to rating instead of just making 1 set for honor and 1 for conq and having that be that. High rating should be rewarded with cosmetics, not ilvl.

Way to make shit more complicated for no reason Blizzard.

Just add a god damn PvP stat.

I share your opinion for pvp stat. But gear was attached to rating from the start minus season 1. lol

I miss resilience so much. Sure healers were kinda nutty with resilience, but we have dampening now. That gripe is moot. Put resilience back on gear. Make it the same ilvl as pve. Call it a day.

[Sanguinerd]

I share your opinion for pvp stat. But gear was attached to rating from the start minus season 1. lol

I miss resilience so much. Sure healers were kinda nutty with resilience, but we have dampening now. That gripe is moot. Put resilience back on gear. Make it the same ilvl as pve. Call it a day.

Having a few pieces locked behind rating isn't the worst thing in the world, it wasn't the full set.

Point is, everyone interested in PvP should have access to the same gear and higher rating shouldn't reward even higher ilvl nor should there be scaling or whatever.

[Awfulist]

Content draught crits Shadowlands for 100000k, Shadowlands dies.
Cy@ on the flipside boys!

[Noctiphobia]

It's for PvPers much more so than for PvEers.

I don't think I've seen people claiming they're getting destroyed by people in PvE gear. Like 99% of the hate about gear in PvP is about people getting boosted, or about rating disparity (getting 1800 or 2100 in 2v2 is not really comparable to 1800 or 2100 in RBGs).
This only hurts players who do both PvP and PvE, since now they'll again need to have 2 sets of gear. And vault gives only one item, so you have to choose being good at one or the other, even more than now. And even now, unless you happen to be a Windwalker, a tank or some other class that doesn't have versatility as the dead last stat, PvP gear is already mediocre in PvE, and PvE gear without versatility is crap in PvE.
This is yet another thing Blizzard is doing assuming that people either don't care about being optimal, or always only play 1 spec in 1 type of content.
The only way for this change not to screw over people who want to do both PvP and PvE is to make the vault drop 2 items instead of one, one from PvP and one from PvE. Both of them from the same slot (e.g. you get a PvP head and PvE head) so you don't actually just gain 2x as much items.

[Kel_Sceptic]

You know what wow players want? Things that other people dont have it. Gear from mythic raid (not because its gear but because it comes from content that most people dont see), titles / mounts from mythic raid, titles / mounts from arean / rbg, etc. Id venture to say that the endless gear grind is a reward of the past. Gear became so mundane that it doesnt feel like a reward. So, why make it a big deal?

Let me ask you this... If you were to complete mythic raid in a month and during that month, you also got full COMPLETELY BIS gear for your character, what would you do after?
where would your sense of reward come from? Is it rewarding to continue farming those mythic bosses even thought youre getting literally nothing from it? This is why gear as a reward has become stupid.

Take emphasis off of gear as a reward and base rewards around cosmetic things. Its better that way.

A man that knows how and why gearing was a thing in TBC/WotLK, where we needed to farm the same raid/dundeon like 10-20-30 times to get that 1 items we needed. That was a big part of the journey, down that raid boss atlast, and finally get that sword from him (YES, I'm looking at you Prince Malchezaar, you and 10-15 weeks until you dropped my sword).

[crazyswayzee]

What about versatility? That's basically the differentiator now. Assuming vers. still comes standard on all PVP gear it sounds like even mythic raid gear is going to be garbage in high-ranked PVP.

This is the way it should be, so hopefully yes

- - - Updated - - -

Its a good solution but something is missing. Lower the item Level Inflation between different pvp ranks/m+ keylevels! Make 2 itemlevel steps from one rank to another and apply that system to mythic + and raiding as well.
That way people wont buy boosts to get 2 item Level more.
Imagine IF you are at 1400 with 200gs and you get to 1600 you can Upgrade your gear to 202gs, but because its only 2 item Level more you wont buy a boost for this since its not worth the Gold and the disadvantage from your gear to people that are already 1600 isnt that great and you still have a chance to get this by yourself!

If this change would be come real you would kill the boosting community in m+ and pvp i guess!

- - - Updated - - -

Not really, pvp players who join pugs to get gear for arena are usually terrible players that can't do mechanics. See a PVE player can pvp, you're just doing what you always do except against a player. Aslong as you know what the class you're against is capable of doing it's quite simple.
But a pvp player steping into a raid is whole new world. They're garbage at pve usually, this is a plus for us pve players. Tired of all the PVP crying, this works out for us. PVP players will no longer be able to get carried in raids for better trinkets/easier pieces of gear and now their playerbase doesn't exist and will just que into the same sellers again and again because let's be honest, 90% of the pvp playerbase are raiders.



Win for pve

Dude are you trolling? I was a pvper all my life and whenever i came into a pug to grab some loot/See the content i was always one of the guys who fought better and healed better then the other amazing pve players who couldnt even talk and push their Buttons AND had like 30 more trys in their memory.
The usual heroic raiders i know are the most garbage pvp players i have ever seen, pvp is 100x more difficult then raiding because you have like 10 fights you have to remember in pve per patch which will always be the same where as you have like 30 specs and alot of different combos/playstyles which you have to adapt to in a 3s Match. I only talk about 3s here btw because 2s is too scripted so pls think twice before you tell your stories. Absolutely hilarious

[arandomuser]

Not a big fan. Let loot be loot, without gimmicky +ilvl in some situations.

Put a 13 slot set bonus on PvP gear with different effects at different numbers of items if you want something special for PvP gear in PvP.

the "let loot be loot" model failed
bellular and preach were wrong and blizz should stop basing their development off their personal feedback
bellular and preach wanted the game to be like classic where you re clear the raid for months on end hoping for your low drop chance item, but the fact of the matter is nobody wants that.

[Gorsameth]

the "let loot be loot" model failed
bellular and preach were wrong and blizz should stop basing their development off their personal feedback
bellular and preach wanted the game to be like classic where you re clear the raid for months on end hoping for your low drop chance item, but the fact of the matter is nobody wants that.

let loot be loot hasn't failed. The issue is separate systems for acquiring loot, one makes you pray to RNjesus with big loot tables and the other is simply a vendor where you pick the thing you want.

shockingly people flocked towards the one that let you pick exactly the item you needed.

[Keyadrel]

I feel like Its going in the right direction but it does need more love. Knowing we have a system with the runecarver to craft our Legendary gear, the game should let us chose a piece of pvp gear and craft IT with the stats we want. I would also bring back a mechanic with resilience or set bonuses that gives damage reduction against players in pvp and finally let us roll 2 secondary stats of our Choice instead of just 1.

Im just throwing out ideas out There but I Do agree with some people, PvP gear should dominate in PvP and PvE gear should dominate in PvE.

[jsrfuture]

How is it forcing pve players into pvp? It was an option for gear. With this change its just one less option to have when gearing up.

It was not optional, it was the only way to get a 233 weapon, lowering the ilvl is making it an option and no longer mandatory.

No one is forcing you to do it but yourself. Quit projecting.

If you are playing at top level, yes you HAVE to, otherwise you're gonna get benched, and if they don't bench you they will simply get shifted by other who did player who did not get their pvp weapon/trinket. A 233 ilvl weapon is just too big of an advantage, same goes for the 1m trinket, for some spec.If you think that it inconsequential then I do not know what game you are playing but that is not WoW Retails.