[Potential spoilers]Sylvanas, the Convergence of the Shadowlands, and the Great Truth

[Sorrowseer]

No, the idea is 'too deep' the Oribos inhabitants are just clueless good guys who do menial work.

[Le Conceptuel]

Oh, did I give you the impression that a rational or literary minded person could consider the black-hat Sylvanas shift since late in "Legion" to be quality writing? I'm sorry. No, only a facile dilettante of genre fiction could consider the "suddenly, Sylvanas was completely uncomplicated and evil, and did bad things until she died" direction in the last few years to be good writing.

If you are actually attempting to sound sophisticated about the lore of a video game like Warcraft, which was initially made by fantasy nerds obeying "rule of cool" and now is under the direction of a YA author to have ever been some kind of highbrow art is, I kindly request you read a book. Like a real book. One with big pages and more than two sentences per paragraph.

[deviantcultist]

she's trying to destroy a system that's working perfectly.

Is a system where you spend your whole life struggling only for your soul to have eternity determined by some machine with divine entitlement? Not to mention the whole system being defined by anima circulation, a resource-driven system that forms parallels with capitalistic systems of mortals?

As much as I despited Sylvanas for years now, I really want that system to fall apart at the very least.

[Le Conceptuel]

Is a system where you spend your whole life struggling only for your soul to have eternity determined by some machine with divine entitlement? Not to mention the whole system being defined by anima circulation, a resource-driven system that forms parallels with capitalistic systems of mortals?

As much as I despited Sylvanas for years now, I really want that system to fall apart at the very least.

It's not in this canon. Read the rest of the post - I was entertaining an alternative plotline where the system is shown to work perfectly, or at least be the best that could possibly exist. Keep the Arbiter and the like, but make her actually infallible, or, as I alternatively posited, make it more a "divine bureaucracy" thing.

[Nyel]

Also, I can't see the pic. Then again, my internet's been weird today.

It's just the Torghast atop Icecrown picture.

[deviantcultist]

Also, this could be the perfect lead into a Void expac.

I wish that's the case. Hope it's not generic Dragon Isles like the vocal community keeps asking for.

[TheFirstOnes]

I wish that's the case. Hope it's not generic Dragon Isles like the vocal community keeps asking for.

I mean, the Dragon Isles could just be the main leveling continent, and that in itself could still house a raid. I doubt it's enough content for an entire expansion, however.

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I mean, remember the secret Dragon area from How to Train Your Dragon? The Dragon Isles could be the backside of Azeroth, and act as the "secret Dragon area".

[deviantcultist]

It's not in this canon. Read the rest of the post - I was entertaining an alternative plotline where the system is shown to work perfectly, or at least be the best that could possibly exist. Keep the Arbiter and the like, but make her actually infallible, or, as I alternatively posited, make it more a "divine bureaucracy" thing.

Apologies, I just read your whole post now.

Personally, I'm fully against higher powers being objectively right or wrong. If anything, I was one of the people who speculated that the Light should be fallible in order to form a duality with the Void as part of yin-yang.

While the WoW lore is far from perfect, I'm happy with the cosmic focus and how they show that higher beings are not supposed to have an objective say on the fate of mortals.

The reason I am repulsed when fiction shows higher beings being objectively right is because it enforces religious bias and fully undermines the mortal struggle.

[TheFirstOnes]

It's just the Torghast atop Icecrown picture.

Isn't that already happening, kinda?

[deviantcultist]

I mean, the Dragon Isles could just be the main leveling continent, and that in itself could still house a raid. I doubt it's enough content for an entire expansion, however.

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I mean, remember the secret Dragon area from How to Train Your Dragon? The Dragon Isles could be the backside of Azeroth, and act as the "secret Dragon area".

Yeah that's what I meant. I don't mind the Dragon Isles being added at all. However, I would find a Dragon-centered expansion extremely unoriginal and boring, unless they somehow throw a curveball where Dragons have some unlikely cosmic origins or whatever.

[Claymore]

I've been saying it for a while. We defeat Sylvanas but then the Jailer launches his invasion of Azeroth. 9.3 is on Azeroth fighting back the Scourge and Shadowlands forces. Possibly with revamped Northrend zone(s).

I honestly kind of dig that idea. I personally always found Icecrown to be super disappointing anyways (I dunno, ICC always felt like it should've been the FURTHEST point north), but a renewed, all-out Scourge war could be pretty cool.

[Nyel]

Isn't that already happening, kinda?

Not sure, I guess it was teased, but it's not happening already (?) - that's why I think it's the most likely outcome of 9.1 and the raid, especially when considering the raid journal text, but it's speculation.

[TheFirstOnes]

Not sure, I guess it was teased, but it's not happening already (?) - that's why I think it's the most likely outcome of 9.1 and the raid, especially when considering the raid journal text, but it's speculation.

Yeah. I wouldn't mind it if they deviated a bit and gave us the Gardens of Life. Tho, I feel like it's unlikely now.

I mean, maybe not however? Mueh'zala is still stuck in Ardenweald, and the Pantheon of Death members are fucked. Azeroth's forces can't do shit either, unless the First Ones love us that much LMAO

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Yeah that's what I meant. I don't mind the Dragon Isles being added at all. However, I would find a Dragon-centered expansion extremely unoriginal and boring, unless they somehow throw a curveball where Dragons have some unlikely cosmic origins or whatever.

Yeah, not to mention the Void keeps mentioning how Life and Death (Especially Death) will "open the way". Hence why Odyn, the "lord of ravens" is returning for 9.1, why the "enemy of all" is falling this expac, and why the 5 keys will "light the path" for them. Also why they're hinting at the Light doing some shady shit as well.

[Alanar]

Oh, I wasn't talking 9.1. I was talking overall, like in 9.2 or some shit. Also, I can't see the pic. Then again, my internet's been weird today.

Also, this could be the perfect lead into a Void expac.

We were talking about that. But it will be the end of 9.1. 9.2 will likely have a different theme. Its likely we get back to that story eitger in 9.3 or earlier.

Void has nothing to do with it and would feel missplaced imo.

[Le Conceptuel]

Apologies, I just read your whole post now.

Personally, I'm fully against higher powers being objectively right or wrong. If anything, I was one of the people who speculated that the Light should be fallible in order to form a duality with the Void as part of yin-yang.

While the WoW lore is far from perfect, I'm happy with the cosmic focus and how they show that higher beings are not supposed to have an objective say on the fate of mortals.

The reason I am repulsed when fiction shows higher beings being objectively right is because it enforces religious bias and fully undermines the mortal struggle.

I'd honestly say the opposite. When higher beings are shown as objectively right, it simply seems like a rational conclusion to draw. Keep in mind that mortals are very much fallible by definition, and denying a higher power may actually be seen as irrational or even immoral in the context of it being benevolent. If anything, it seems perfectly mortal for people to apply their selfish and biased worldviews to things they aren't really fit to dabble in, causing things to go downhill rapidly as a consequence.

Think of it as why you trust the quantum physicists with quantum physics and not the crazy guy on the side of the sidewalk who is claiming that there is only one fundamental force and it is tinfoil. Higher powers, on the assumption they exist and are benevolent, certainly ought to know how to produce the best possible result, and for mortals to sabotage their engines seems like a misguided, if well-meaning effort at best or a selfish and irrational lashing out at the world for things that are either not the result of that higher power or are entirely necessary for the best result to be achieved.

If anything, it would actually sort of demean the importance of mortals to make them more relevant than cosmic forces. Whether it's as a Lovecraftian world in which the high powers are not benevolent and it's our duty to struggle against the darkness for no particular reason other than struggle itself or a world where there's a sincere and benevolent higher power governing things, the actions of mortals would actually be made more emotionally-impactful, such as with mortals either granting meaning to their own actions if the former or doing their best to ensure that the best end comes about as well, while minimizing suffering in a way that a higher power may not allow itself to (I.E. to enable free will, to prevent simply making everything into a big sandbox, etc.) if the latter.

[TickTickTick]

Is a system where you spend your whole life struggling only for your soul to have eternity determined by some machine with divine entitlement? Not to mention the whole system being defined by anima circulation, a resource-driven system that forms parallels with capitalistic systems of mortals?

Was there ever a case of it working wrong? Have you encountered anyone who felt like they've been misjudged? Talking about those before the Arbiter was pacified of course.

[TheFirstOnes]

Is a system where you spend your whole life struggling only for your soul to have eternity determined by some machine with divine entitlement? Not to mention the whole system being defined by anima circulation, a resource-driven system that forms parallels with capitalistic systems of mortals?

As much as I despited Sylvanas for years now, I really want that system to fall apart at the very least.

The First Ones: *Awkwardly whistling*

[Dzonathan]

Could it be that the Jailer was the original Arbiter before the current one was put in place ?

Few things worth noting about Jailer. The quote from the art book:
"Older than reality itself".

Take a look at the chart

What we know as "reality" is that one little circle in the middle. Nothing more than just the physical expanse of the observable universe. That is planets, solar systems, galaxies etc. Shadowlands is not within the observable universe but separate dimension entirely.

So what does it mean when Jailer is "Older than reality itself?"

It means that he existed in a different dimension, that is Shadowlands, before our reality was created.

It's very likely he was the Arbiter in Oribos before our physical universe (our reality) was even created.

All of quotes from Devos, Sylvanas and Jailer start to make sense.

I think I know what the "Great Truth" is now:
The First Ones are the ones who use other cosmic forces as parts to construct our reality.

[Soon-TM]

We were talking about that. But it will be the end of 9.1. 9.2 will likely have a different theme. Its likely we get back to that story eitger in 9.3 or earlier.

Void has nothing to do with it and would feel missplaced imo.

Well, to quote again our Ilgy boi friend, "The Light has made a pact with the enemy of all". That leads me to think that should there ever be a bridge between 9.2 and 10.0, it will be Light-themed, at least in the beginning. Void folks may still enter the scene later down the road.

[Alanar]

Well, to quote again our Ilgy boi friend, "The Light has made a pact with the enemy of all". That leads me to think that should there ever be a bridge between 9.2 and 10.0, it will be Light-themed, at least in the beginning. Void folks may still enter the scene later down the road.

Sure that can still happen in between. Thats what I meant with 9.2 having a different theme. I dont believe 9.2 would just continue the whole chains thing without some sideplots like you mentioned. If 9.3 is a thing I would say that would be the continuation patch if you know what I mean.