9.1 Spoilers A character of the past returns

[Venziir]

None of this makes sense in the first place.

Illidan consumes the Skull of Gul'dan and spawns wings and horns like a Dreadlord. But now we learn Dreadlords aren't demons and aren't Fel related at all, they're Death related and from the Shadowlands. How does this add up?

And don't tell me it's a one-time thing. Compare Kil'jaeden to Archimonde and his fellow Eredar, he too spawned wings and horns due to Fel magic. Sargeras as well. It's quite a recurring theme actually.

Nathrezim not being Demons and being death related is just a stupid retcon that doesn't make sense. And why flip flop with the decision? First they went from Nathrezim being the only race that could revive themselves and other Demons couldn't, this feat does lend some credibility to the Nathrezim being different from the rest of the Burning Legion. But then they threw that out of the window in Warlords of Draenor by making ALL demons being able to revive in the Nether and saw the return of Mannoroth, Archimonde, etc. Suddenly Nathrezim aren't special anymore. But now in Shadowlands they're special again. Make up your mind!

And why would Kel'thuzad work for the Jailer when his loyalty was with the Lich King? Sylvanas? Why would she willingly work for the Jailer when he's largely responsible for the Lich King / Arthas killing her and turning her into a Banshee?

The writing is really bad this expansion. Worse than alternate dimension Orcs if you ask me.

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I can 100% guarantee he was supposed to be a good guy at that time. It's just current writers creating retcons that alters past characters regardless of their already written backstory and dialogue.

Nathrezim aren't the only demons with wings or horns though - even Sargeras had both. Even back in Warcraft 3, dreadlords were described as being vampiric masters of necromancy - so them being agents of death makes perfect sense even still.

[Shaqthefat]

None of this makes sense in the first place.

Illidan consumes the Skull of Gul'dan and spawns wings and horns like a Dreadlord. But now we learn Dreadlords aren't demons and aren't Fel related at all, they're Death related and from the Shadowlands. How does this add up?

And don't tell me it's a one-time thing. Compare Kil'jaeden to Archimonde and his fellow Eredar, he too spawned wings and horns due to Fel magic. Sargeras as well. It's quite a recurring theme actually.

Nathrezim not being Demons and being death related is just a stupid retcon that doesn't make sense. And why flip flop with the decision? First they went from Nathrezim being the only race that could revive themselves and other Demons couldn't, this feat does lend some credibility to the Nathrezim being different from the rest of the Burning Legion. But then they threw that out of the window in Warlords of Draenor by making ALL demons being able to revive in the Nether and saw the return of Mannoroth, Archimonde, etc. Suddenly Nathrezim aren't special anymore. But now in Shadowlands they're special again. Make up your mind!

And why would Kel'thuzad work for the Jailer when his loyalty was with the Lich King? Sylvanas? Why would she willingly work for the Jailer when he's largely responsible for the Lich King / Arthas killing her and turning her into a Banshee?

The writing is really bad this expansion. Worse than alternate dimension Orcs if you ask me.

The dreadlords got their demonic appearance from consuming fel magic, similar to how Illidan got his from the skull of Gul'dan

[Mic_128]

Actually the story in WotLK becomes a bit more interesting. Was Arthas controlled by Jailer and dreadlords? Was he part of their plan? Was it their plan to bring Arthas down? If not then what was Malganis doing?

I imagine it was. It was already stated that the Lich King had left the script the Jailer had planned, and Ner'zhul certainly had no intention of following it, seeing as he was guarded by Dreadlords, secretly was plotting his 'escape' and had Arthas kill Mal'ganis and usurp full control the Scourge. Wether Mal in WotLK was following the Jailer's orders to topple him, or was simply out for vengeance

Was it their plan to bring Sylvanas into their team? Or was it a decision they made after Arthas was killed?

It might have been the plan before - the Dreadlords did try and work with Sylv during Frozen Throne. And it certinly was the plan afterwards, with the JAiler doing his stuff when she killed herself.

Was the Undercity coup during wrathgate a plan of Jailer? If so then what was its goal? Or was it something Burning Legion ordered and the dreadlords couldn't stop? Did Jailer expect it to be succesful, or did he know it would fail and Varimathras was sacrificed?

I was under the impression it was Sargeras, as we hear a "mysterious voice" berating him after he's summoned the armies of the Legion through portals, but is defeated. Whether it was the Jailer nudging Sargeras, who knows.

[DesoPL]

If i good recall, on wowhead lately was datamined script involved Mal'Ganis in freeing Denathrius from imprisnoment.

[Super Dickmann]

None of this makes sense in the first place.

Illidan consumes the Skull of Gul'dan and spawns wings and horns like a Dreadlord. But now we learn Dreadlords aren't demons and aren't Fel related at all, they're Death related and from the Shadowlands. How does this add up?

And don't tell me it's a one-time thing. Compare Kil'jaeden to Archimonde and his fellow Eredar, he too spawned wings and horns due to Fel magic. Sargeras as well. It's quite a recurring theme actually.

Nathrezim not being Demons and being death related is just a stupid retcon that doesn't make sense. And why flip flop with the decision? First they went from Nathrezim being the only race that could revive themselves and other Demons couldn't, this feat does lend some credibility to the Nathrezim being different from the rest of the Burning Legion. But then they threw that out of the window in Warlords of Draenor by making ALL demons being able to revive in the Nether and saw the return of Mannoroth, Archimonde, etc. Suddenly Nathrezim aren't special anymore. But now in Shadowlands they're special again. Make up your mind!

And why would Kel'thuzad work for the Jailer when his loyalty was with the Lich King? Sylvanas? Why would she willingly work for the Jailer when he's largely responsible for the Lich King / Arthas killing her and turning her into a Banshee?

The writing is really bad this expansion. Worse than alternate dimension Orcs if you ask me.

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I can 100% guarantee he was supposed to be a good guy at that time. It's just current writers creating retcons that alters past characters regardless of their already written backstory and dialogue.

The appearance thing is actually one of the few that's easy to reconcile. We know using fel magic/drinking demon blood has you grow horns, turn strange colours and mutate. Illidan or the Eredar change in the same way and even the Nathrezim we see right now look a lot more 'polished' than the ones we've seen exposed to fel magic. What's not easy to explain is just about everything else regarding them.

Take the Scourge Civil War for example. The Dreadlords are agents of the Jailer not of the Legion, but they fight each other. Except the Lich King is also an agent of the Jailer. So why are they fighting each other? Why are they upset the Legion has lost if they actually work for this other guy, even in their private conversations? Why is Balnazzar summoning Sargeras if his involvement with fel is only a tactical choice? Did Lothraxion lie about his internal monologue like Sylvanas? Of course, you can handwave most of these away by saying that not all Dreadlords are part of the dreadlord conspiracy, but evidently at least Mal'ganis is. Except Ner'zhul had Arthas kill Mal'ganis to get his own champion from the Legion. Did he now do it to blind the Jailer? Why are the dreadlords even the majordomos of the Legion if they actually work for this other guy?

It's not all bad, mind and I can see why they did it. It all stems from the dreadlords never actually acting like any of the other demons in the setting and being more associated with the Scourge and so undeath. Their power to make runeblades that has now been retconned to be about the Jailer and the fact that they were using undead and rune magic at all, which the Legion never does en masse ever again are all elements that lend themselves to this new angle. "A Nathrezim must not kill another" has meaning if they're part of some wide-ranging conspiracy between each other, less so if they're demon lords competing with one another who lack a joint interest. I can see why the writers wanted to delve into that and it's not a bad idea by itself. It certainly brings back the mystique of a race that was reduced to dungeon fodder. It is a retcon, but unlike the carfire with Kel'thuzad and Sylvanas, it's not a lost cause. But it's overreaching to the nth degree and opens chasms in the plot that are too bothersome to explain, yet chafe violently with a story that wasn't intended to go this route with them.

Nevermind all the plot issues listed from before Shadowlands, even in Shadowlands itself we go in the span of a patch from the Jailer ditching Denathrius to dreadlords freeing Denathrius but also working for the Jailer.

[Le Conceptuel]

The appearance thing is actually one of the few that's easy to reconcile. We know using fel magic/drinking demon blood has you grow horns, turn strange colours and mutate. Illidan or the Eredar change in the same way and even the Nathrezim we see right now look a lot more 'polished' than the ones we've seen exposed to fel magic. What's not easy to explain is just about everything else regarding them.

Take the Scourge Civil War for example. The Dreadlords are agents of the Jailer not of the Legion, but they fight each other. Except the Lich King is also an agent of the Jailer. So why are they fighting each other? Why are they upset the Legion has lost if they actually work for this other guy, even in their private conversations? Why is Balnazzar summoning Sargeras if his involvement with fel is only a tactical choice? Did Lothraxion lie about his internal monologue like Sylvanas? Of course, you can handwave most of these away by saying that not all Dreadlords are part of the dreadlord conspiracy, but evidently at least Mal'ganis is. Except Ner'zhul had Arthas kill Mal'ganis to get his own champion from the Legion. Did he now do it to blind the Jailer? Why are the dreadlords even the majordomos of the Legion if they actually work for this other guy?

It all stems from the dreadlords never actually acting like any of the other demons in the setting and being more associated with the Scourge and so undeath. Their power to make runeblades that has now been retconned to be about the Jailer never came up again in the interim and it was never especially clear why they stood apart from the Legion. "A Nathrezim must not kill another" has meaning if they're part of some wide-ranging conspiracy between each other, less so if they're demon lords competing with one another who lack a joint interest. I can see why the writers wanted to delve into that. Making their starting point here is a retcon, but unlike the carfire with Kel'thuzad and Sylvanas, it's not a lost cause. But it's overreaching to the nth degree and opens chasms in the plot they can't possibly explain.

Nevermind all the plot issues listed from before Shadowlands, even in Shadowlands itself we go in the span of a patch from the Jailer ditching Denathrius to dreadlords freeing Denathrius but also working for the Jailer.

I'm interested in seeing if the Nathrezim can hold up as villains. It seems like it could genuinely be a very interesting plot if we find out more and it actually makes some remote cohesive sense. Freeing Denathrius actually seems pretty sensible if he's the one really running the Nathrezim, while if it's the Jailer, that does still seem pretty suspect in terms of cohesive lore.

I'd say my best interpretation is that the Nathrezim are just quasi-independent actors who do as they please, with some serving Death and some serving the Fel, or even all of the cosmic powers being infiltrated by the Nathrezim, though I suppose that could similarly spiral into fanfiction-y nonsense pretty quick.

[Super Dickmann]

I'm interested in seeing if the Nathrezim can hold up as villains. It seems like it could genuinely be a very interesting plot if we find out more and it actually makes some remote cohesive sense. Freeing Denathrius actually seems pretty sensible if he's the one really running the Nathrezim, while if it's the Jailer, that does still seem pretty suspect in terms of cohesive lore.

I'd say my best interpretation is that the Nathrezim are just quasi-independent actors who do as they please, with some serving Death and some serving the Fel, or even all of the cosmic powers being infiltrated by the Nathrezim, though I suppose that could similarly spiral into fanfiction-y nonsense pretty quick.

I joke, but I like the idea of getting the Nathrezim back into their own thing with a death association, it's how they started in WC3. We've had some good Nathrezim stories in WoW proper, like with Balnazzar and the whole business with Detheroc and Shaw to an extent, but they fell way out of focus in terms of their unique identity. The only element Blizzard kept is that they were infiltrators. The vampirism, necromancy, association with runeweapons and them being their own club which you're not a part of all fell to the wayside and it's a good move to bring that all back.

The problem with the route, like is often the case with Blizzard, isn't the direction itself but the execution - how big they went and how unnecessarily so. Instead of having them be at fault for everything, just say that Denathrius fanned them out as sleeper agents. Some got too into character (like Lothraxion or the Legion Dreadlords), but some stuck to the cause and with the Legion defeated, were true to their name and went over to the winning side and are now working for Death. Just a throw-away line going "this is where they started, this was the plan, it got sidetracked but now they're back to working together since they see an opportunity" would open all the same hooks without opening such big plot inconsistencies. You wouldn't have to go back and rewrite anyone's actions.

[Le Conceptuel]

I joke, but I like the idea of getting the Nathrezim back into their own thing with a death association, it's how they started in WC3. We've had some good Nathrezim stories in WoW proper, like with Balnazzar and the whole business with Detheroc and Shaw to an extent, but they fell way out of focus in terms of their unique identity. The only element Blizzard kept is that they were infiltrators. The vampirism, necromancy, association with runeweapons and them being their own club which you're not a part of all fell to the wayside and it's a good move to bring that all back.

The problem with the route, like is often the case with Blizzard, isn't the direction itself but the execution - how big they went and how unnecessarily so. Instead of having them be at fault for everything, just say that Denathrius fanned them out as sleeper agents. Some got too into character (like Lothraxion or the Legion Dreadlords), but some stuck to the cause and with the Legion defeated, were true to their name and went over to the winning side and are now working for Death. Just a throw-away line going "this is where they started, this was the plan, it got sidetracked but now they're back to working together since they see an opportunity" would open all the same hooks without opening such big plot inconsistencies. You wouldn't have to go back and rewrite anyone's actions.

That's a pretty good way of going at it. That's how I personally rewrote it, to some extent or another, with this just being the original plot for them. It's rather a shame that this is among the poorly-executed elements, since this could be a rather fascinating plot. It is true that they always were the odd ones out, so the Dreadlord having ulterior motives seems completely in-character for them, especially since they were responsible for Sargeras' corruption in the first place.

Not to mention that, with Sargeras thematically looking more like a pissed-off galactic conqueror rather than a demon lord now, the Dreadlords would also have more associations with typically-demonic elements, which have been absent from Warcraft lore for some time. Associating them with Warcraft's super-hell and the Jailer is a good way of returning those themes.

Honestly, the biggest shame is simply that they wasted all the Death themes. They made Zovaal too flat because he had no build-up and the Shadowlands and the origin of the Dreadlords seems to big for a "filler" expansion. These are some pretty huge lore deals which were deserving of far more focus than this.

In retrospect, I wonder if COVID had anything to do with it.

[Soon-TM]

Honestly, the biggest shame is simply that they wasted all the Death themes. They made Zovaal too flat because he had no build-up and the Shadowlands and the origin of the Dreadlords seems to big for a "filler" expansion. These are some pretty huge lore deals which were deserving of far more focus than this.

This is my concern as well. Even after Sargeras' defeat, you could still reasonably have another demon-themed xpac. But if the Blue Man is defeated (as has been the entirety of WoW villains, except maybe... Grom? lol), it will be very hard to pull another death-themed xpac in the future without needing to throw heavy handed retcons left and right.

[Le Conceptuel]

This is my concern as well. Even after Sargeras' defeat, you could still reasonably have another demon-themed xpac. But if the Blue Man is defeated (as has been the entirety of WoW villains, except maybe... Grom? lol), it will be very hard to pull another death-themed xpac in the future without needing to throw heavy handed retcons left and right.

Exactly. You could probably cut the expansion in half and have just as much to work with, and do it better at that.

[Nero Duskwind]

I am more concerned about something else - Varimathras. If dreadlords work in hand with the Jailer and Sylvanas - why did he warn us about her during the fight in Legion?

Because the Coven of Shivarra drove him insane with torture methods that would make Pinhead proud. By the time they were done with him, he only cared about reciprocating his pain and suffering unto others. The Jailor, Sire Denathrius, and his brethren's plans no longer mattered to him.

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As someone who actually remembers the plot of "Thousands Years of War" I can't believe Lothraxion is actually a sleeper agent. He was such a nice guy, like a true bro to Turalyon. Even pled for mercy for Alleria, and Xe'ra was swayed by his and Turalyon's words.

I feel like Lothraxion went in as a sleeper agent but his extended involvement the Light for so long that he eventually underwent a sincere conversion. It's akin to when undercover law enforcement stay in deep cover so long that they risk wholly becoming their assumed identity. The other Dreadlords that infiltrated the Fel and Void cosmologies likely had an easier time maintaining their sense of self because many of their mutual goals were already in alignment.

[Le Conceptuel]

I feel like Lothraxion went in as a sleeper agent but his extended involvement the Light for so long that he eventually underwent a sincere conversion. It's akin to when undercover law enforcement stay in deep cover so long that they risk wholly becoming their assumed identity. The other Dreadlords that infiltrated the Fel and Void cosmologies likely had an easier time maintaining their sense of self because many of their mutual goals were already in alignment.

I'd say it's less of extended involvement and more that he was filled with the Light, which at least in old lore acted like a "truth serum". Flooding someone with something that would probably be associated with truth would probably be a good way for them to blab, which I continue to stubbornly maintain was probably why Revendreth was attacked.

[Depakote]

Funny how Sylvanas, Varimathras, and Kel'thuzad all ended up working for the same people in the end.

Not really. They all gravitate towards power.

[procne]

I feel like Lothraxion went in as a sleeper agent but his extended involvement the Light for so long that he eventually underwent a sincere conversion. It's akin to when undercover law enforcement stay in deep cover so long that they risk wholly becoming their assumed identity. The other Dreadlords that infiltrated the Fel and Void cosmologies likely had an easier time maintaining their sense of self because many of their mutual goals were already in alignment.

If he did then he would warn us. He might have been converted long before plans for shadowlands were laid, but at the very least he would know dreadlords have other masters than Burning Legion