If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Syegfryed]

Okay. When the Kaldorei have a problem with a ranger who hasn't attacked them before?

wat

Ubo two tries and they failed and we don't know what happened before Vanilla.

again, night elf fault

Those caravans were in Horde or kaldorei territory? Did the resources come from trade or theft?

there is no theft, it came from the warsong camp, something already there

That or how to add later maybe it has to do with the arobles having face and hands spirits and they move.

nope, doubt that would make centaurs and quilboars away

[geco]

wat

translation error.

again, night elf fault

Keep dreaming.

there is no theft, it came from the warsong camp, something already there

That is, a shipment passing supplies to an outpost in enemy territory?

I think in the Arthas novel? or mabye its a flash back in the Illidan one or wolf heart. one of them mention that human explorers have been attacked when going near night elf lands so they stay away from them it's just a small passing blip not expanded upon.

in that case you are right.

[Syegfryed]

Keep dreaming.

what dreaming? is stated night elves didn't want tot rade or the horde presence in ashenvale and attack, they could not because the warsong fought back, this is the reason they joined the alliance, enemy of my enemy is my ally, also to get support against the horde

second time again, it was because of the night elves and they using the wrathgate as excuse.

That is, a shipment passing supplies to an outpost in enemy territory?

its only enemy because they decide that is.

[sam86]

I'm talking about the actions of the Forsaken since then, like the absolute destruction of both Hillsbrad settlements and attempted destruction of Gilneas as well as their attempts to sabotage the argent crusade's efforts to purify western plaguelands.

that was after alliance declared war on horde, horde don't roll off wait to be killed like what trolls did, we know that alliance has zero remorse in their 'light guided' view and have zero problem to literally kill every single horde they see
not sure where i did write that but i did say however that forsaken specially need a strong stand from horde, at that rate they will be alliance

[Lochton]

There would not have been a chance for peace, the progress into the zone would've just been more aggressive.

[Frontenac]

Those damned elves... How dare they defend their territory! How impolite of themselves to refuse us what we impolitely ask! Was it so big a deal to give us just half of their lands?

Yeah, let's blame the victims... You rarely have peace for long when you surrender to bullies. They see it as a sign of weakness and they ask for more. Or else!

[Syegfryed]

Those damned elves... How dare they defend their territory!

if you do not want people going to your territory, mark then, show they belong to someone, show they are inhabited, no one can see the future, see people invisible or read minds, yeah, damned elves

How impolite of themselves to refuse us what we impolitely ask! Was it so big a deal to give us just half of their lands?

the only act "impolitely"" was from the night elves, attacking outsiders without warning.

Yeah, let's blame the victims... You rarely have peace for long when you surrender to bullies. They see it as a sign of weakness and they ask for more. Or else!

ironic coming from the race who bully everyone who come close, good thing the orcs didn't surrender to then i gues.

[Dellis0991]

Azeroth is where the loud rule all, the meek fumbles at every step and the hopeful can't see pass their ideas. I don't blame the horde for needing resources and I don't blame the night elves for wanting to protect their lands but both sides half assed diplomacy and resorted to bloodshed instead of using that space between their ears.

[cparle87]

Why would the Nightelfs be ok with this??
They have a strong bond to the forests and its trees and it is their home, and they have been defending them literally for 1000s of years, why would they be fine of just giving this up for the horde to destroy it all?


The Horde did this....the Forsaken is a part of the horde and they where behind the attack even Sylvanas did know about it at the time, and she did nothing to stop it. Also this was before the Defeat of lichking and her so called "contract" with the jailer.

Except it was very quickly revealed to be a Legion plot to sew discord, and the Alliance fell for it despite knowing it was a plot. "Hey, we know the Legion was trying to set you up, but we're still gonna declare war and attack you... cause we don't like you and now we have an excuse."

- - - Updated - - -

I'm talking about the actions of the Forsaken since then, like the absolute destruction of both Hillsbrad settlements and attempted destruction of Gilneas as well as their attempts to sabotage the argent crusade's efforts to purify western plaguelands.

There was an entire part of (I think it was, memory is shitty) the Varian novel where the night elves broke off the trade agreement because the Twilight's Hammer framed the Horde for brutally killing and maiming a group of druids. They still had an agreement up until shortly before cata at least. It couldnt've been the wrathgate.

When night elves called off the trade agreement due to the Horde's attack, Garrosh didn't bother to attempt to clear up the misunderstanding.

They'd already broken off the trade agreement before the orc framing thing. They broke it off after Wrathgate. The druid murder thing simply escalated things. As for blaming Garrosh, he wasn't in charge yet, and was in fact still up in Northrend.

[FuxieDK]

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

It's not their territory to begin with... You cannot give away something you do no own.

They can relinquish their claim, but that's not the same.

[VladlTutushkin]

It's not their territory to begin with... You cannot give away something you do no own.

They can relinquish their claim, but that's not the same.

How is Ashenvale not night elven territory?

[Skayth]

easiest path to coexistence was for the Night Elves to provide the wood, and the horde to provide something in equivalent exchange.

Night Elves can harvest the wood without harming the forest, to the point of which the horde needs. It isnt even that big of a deal, rather they just didnt give a damn about the horde (retcon) post archimonde. So they became full MY WOODS.

But yea, Night Elves would have fit the Horde better in vanilla. But they were given to the Alliance for a race that starts on Kalimdor. (hence why blood elves were give to the Horde in burning Crusade)

+ shamanism and druidism basically goes hand in hand

[cparle87]

easiest path to coexistence was for the Night Elves to provide the wood, and the horde to provide something in equivalent exchange.

Night Elves can harvest the wood without harming the forest, to the point of which the horde needs. It isnt even that big of a deal, rather they just didnt give a damn about the horde (retcon) post archimonde. So they became full MY WOODS.

But yea, Night Elves would have fit the Horde better in vanilla. But they were given to the Alliance for a race that starts on Kalimdor. (hence why blood elves were give to the Horde in burning Crusade)

+ shamanism and druidism basically goes hand in hand

Before Wrathgate they had that kind of deal. The Horde harvests lumber under the guidance and observation of druids to make sure they don't harm the forest, and they trade the elves metalwork and other goods they don't have. And you're not wrong about the MY WOODS thing since the Horde was there pre-Archimonde and then suddenly it was terrible for them to be here.

[Raisei]

How is Ashenvale not night elven territory?

Well if you ask the Hordes in this thread then the answer is pretty simple: "It's not, because the Horde wants it." And what the Horde wants should be given to it, otherwise they kill you and take it, which of course is completely justified.

Being literal Xenomophs that came to this planet to wipe out all other life doesn't matter. They were imprisoned for that! In camps!! Camps!!! The Alliance owes them the planet for that unforgivebale act!!

[Skayth]

Before Wrathgate they had that kind of deal. The Horde harvests lumber under the guidance and observation of druids to make sure they don't harm the forest, and they trade the elves metalwork and other goods they don't have. And you're not wrong about the MY WOODS thing since the Horde was there pre-Archimonde and then suddenly it was terrible for them to be here.

they did, but thats the thing, they still skirmished one another before the wrathgate (vanilla questlines). If they were proper allies, and night elves were apart of the horde, then it would have been such a good deal on both parts. But, if Horde got two classes solely (druids and shamans) and alliance got only paladins, then yea, balance wouldnt be there... but they could have made warlocks solely alliance (at least until bc) to counter that. so it really came down to Alliance needed a race on Kalimdor, to break the monopoly of Horde, quite literally owning thousand needles up. It also didnt help the fact that the Forsaken were there playable. But lore be damned.

[Super Dickmann]

Pity though, since the orcs are allied with a faction that successfully terraformed their entire kingdom, without screwing up the entire thing, unlike the druids almost all of the time.

To be fair it's not all that hard to beat the druids in success, considering the world trees have a complete 100% rate of failure and even the great trees inevitably ended up being vectors for Yoggy. And yet they keep doing it.

The Barrens have some farms, and game aplenty, and an unconstested coastline in Durotar and Azshara allows for plenty of fishing. Harsh does not mean desolate and unable to support a population, else a lot of Africa wouldn't be that populated, and especially since there can't be that many Orcs in the first place and they should be able to rely on allies living in fertile lands (Tauren, BEs) to provide aid as well. The Cataclysm would definitely have broken such supply chains temporarily and could have been plenty enough motivations for a rash Warchief such as Garrosh to invade NE lands now to resolve the problem posthaste, but the idea that the Orcs have been starving for years and the only recourse is to invade a heavily forested land when they have several options available to them is pretty stupid.

I'm not talking about settling Feralas necessarily, but getting lumber/game from there. It's more or less just one zone further than Ashenvale, and the Taurens already have camps in the area, with the Night Elves only holding Feathermoon Stronghold on the coast while the rest is ruins inhabited by races hostile to them. Sure makes a lot more sense than maintaining strongholds like Kargath or Stonard at the ass end of nowhere to me.

Given that it's literally called the Barrens and it's never implied to be any sort of breadbasket while it'd be able to sustain hunter-gatherers I'm hard pressed to buy - and the game has in any case never indicated it, that it can survive a rapidly expanding population. I'll freely give you that given how small the orcish population should really be, they should still be able to keep themselves going, but if you accept hte premise of the MMO from Day 1 - that being that there are a lot more orcs (and humans) and a lot fewer night elves than WC3 made clear, then it's generally fine. Likewise, Azshara was haunted and condemned until the Horde took it over under Garrosh. The Durotar coast is uncontested only in the loosest sense, just going through the Classic quest you have everything from Kul Tiran remnants, to the entire Echo Isles to Burning Blade and water elementals harassing the place, compared to the absence of such issues in other, more fertile lands.

The tauren, like certain orc clans, have been nomadic, but unlike the orcs, who at least have shown themselves able to support a sedentary existence with the likes of the Old Horde or the Blackrock Clan able to create sustainable links of supply, the tauren have no record of anything of the sort. There are farms in Barrens and Durotar, but nearly everything in Mulgore except Thunder Bluff looks and is temporary. Now, could Garrosh have gone to the blood elves and gone 'hey, we saved your asses, now actually contribute and grow us some pumpkins'? Sure, in the same way Thrall could've settled them in Mulgore with the tauren or actually bothered to prepare his people for sedentary existence. But that is both out of character for the parties involved and eliminates conflict.

With Feralas it's hit or miss - you have all the problems of Ashenvale at a greater distance, with the caveat that the night elf garrison is slower and you can fight the other inhabitants consequence-free. The thing with Stonard is that it's an older position and probably staffed by such. Kargath is on the other hand incomprehensible as a policy choice. They're there because the dwarves are there and that's about as far as the logic goes.

[Sidiusss]

I don't think there will ever be peace between alliance and horde))

[VladlTutushkin]

Well if you ask the Hordes in this thread then the answer is pretty simple: "It's not, because the Horde wants it." And what the Horde wants should be given to it, otherwise they kill you and take it, which of course is completely justified.

Being literal Xenomophs that came to this planet to wipe out all other life doesn't matter. They were imprisoned for that! In camps!! Camps!!! The Alliance owes them the planet for that unforgivebale act!!

Its like the “I only bully people because they refuse to give me their stuff willingly and i only beat them up because they try to fight back.” Kind of logic.

[AcidicSyn]

easiest path to coexistence was for the Night Elves to provide the wood, and the horde to provide something in equivalent exchange.

Night Elves can harvest the wood without harming the forest, to the point of which the horde needs. It isnt even that big of a deal, rather they just didnt give a damn about the horde (retcon) post archimonde. So they became full MY WOODS.

But yea, Night Elves would have fit the Horde better in vanilla. But they were given to the Alliance for a race that starts on Kalimdor. (hence why blood elves were give to the Horde in burning Crusade)

+ shamanism and druidism basically goes hand in hand

I often think that the two faction specific classes should have been Shaman and Druid, rather than paladin. But then I have no clue how paladin would have fit with Horde in vanilla and that idea falls apart.

[FuxieDK]

How is Ashenvale not night elven territory?

Since it's a contested zone, NOT an Alliance zone, it cannot be Night Elf territory.

And it's a neighbor zone to Orgrimmar, and actually quite far from Teldrassil.