If the night elves gave half of Ashenvale to the Horde, would there have been peace?

[Biomega]

What-ifs are always tricky, because of so many factors involved.

Maybe if the Night Elves had welcomed the Orcs they'd have become part of the Horde, and all of Kalimdor would have fallen under Horde control pretty much naturally. Maybe that would have created a more stable balance of power so the war with the Alliance wouldn't have happened. Maybe that would have made it much harder for Arthas to invade, and his defeat much faster. And so on and so forth.

Or it could have gone the exact opposite.

Or nothing could have changed substantially.

Who knows.

[Zmagoslav]

Garrosh would have invaded no matter what. He wanted all of Kalimdor.

The invasion was ongoing ever since the 3rd war ended. The only thing Garosh did is push the line into the nightelven turf.
If anything the Ashenvale story is pretty much the canonical representation of a vanilla-BG... Warsong Gulch.

You cannot blame that on Garrosh

[Val the Moofia Boss]

No, because Garrosh was still Warchief and Sylvanas was still a part of the Horde.

[AcidicSyn]

There wasn't even an attempt at diplomacy. The moment Garrosh found a moment where there was tension between the night elves and orcs, he attacked.

If he was that eager to attack over a misunderstanding, it was only a matter of time until something made him decide to attack. He didn't even take time to investigate whether or not the attack was staged, I can't totally remember but I'm fairly sure he never even looked into why the hell the Horde attacked them to begin with.

There's really nothing night elves could do. If orcs want something, they kill and take it. It was a matter of time until some kind of event drove them to attack.

So basically the second thing I said then.

[Syegfryed]

They still do not show a problem with Sylvanas or with her way of action. Except for Varock who is leaving the Horde.

no... they do show problems and how they dislike, the point is again, they could do nothing about it

You really have a point. But hey Malfurion and Thrall are for each other they will not lift a finger for their people until they have the ax in their heads.

right, but again, the point of their conflict was because the night elves, at that time, were xenophobic isolationists, they dislike the horde in their lands period and tried to shove then off, regardless

Well right now the Kaldorei have to rebuild their capital and their entire nation after being split in half.
Someone is giving you something?

it is literally after the war, you cannot saw how things will be handled atm, there is also a point that if the night elves will have orcs help for anything

PD: And the Horde gave both their lives to defeat the Burning legion and the Kaldorei. It was not one side helping the other. Simply the two fighting against a common enemy.

he horde help then, period, they give their lives to buy time for malfurion to complete the ritual, right, it was mutual, but they still could chocie not to, and ally with the legion

I really have no basis.
Or well my base is as I said. No one is talking about what the Kaldorei were getting in return.

Sometimes I read that it was Iron. But again the Kaldorei don't need it.

seems like they do need it, but im pretty sure they can get with anything else, or they could find something.

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It's unfathomable that even years later, with dozens of revelations to the contrary you still buy the propaganda that Sylvanas started the war because of Genn. Sure she is pissed at him, but her reasons for starting the war should be very evident by now...

is unfathomable how bias can cloud judgment.

You do know the war started with Varian declaration of war right? no one is talking about the sylvanas-gen situation.

There is also, so much wrong and biased in the later comments that is not even worthy to talk about it

[geco]

no... they do show problems and how they dislike, the point is again, they could do nothing about it

I'm going to make my point that I won't ever find out that the Horde says "I don't like Sylvanas's decisions." Until suddenly Baien gets angry.
What a kind of killing civilians does well. Revive evil undead.

right, but again, the point of their conflict was because the night elves, at that time, were xenophobic isolationists, they dislike the horde in their lands period and tried to shove then off, regardless

That applies to all races. I don't see any giving away land to "enemies".

it is literally after the war, you cannot saw how things will be handled atm, there is also a point that if the night elves will have orcs help for anything

Even so if they only bring them Thrall's apology. We no longer give an idea of how "cool" they are.

he horde help then, period, they give their lives to buy time for malfurion to complete the ritual, right, it was mutual, but they still could chocie not to, and ally with the legion

Exactly and that leaves us the relationship clear.
Against a greater enemy they help each other. Without a greater enemy they do not help each other.
Tyrande was also able to fail to help the Horde regain Ogrimar and instead simply goes in to kill as much of the Horde as she can from both sides.

seems like they do need it, but im pretty sure they can get with anything else, or they could find something.

That is what I hate about this conflict. They did not even plant what the Horde gave him in return.
If you had told me that the Horde gave him Something and that he strove to achieve that something. I could say it's a Gray Conflict or that the Kaldorei are the bad guys.

But now it's just another cover that the Horde is bad. Although at least at the time it was "bad because the leader is bad." Now with BFA it becomes just bad.


PS: The really xenofibcos are the Writers who can only see the Horde as a group of monsters. When in truth they are simply "other human cultures with a skin."

[Syegfryed]

I'm going to make my point that I won't ever find out that the Horde says "I don't like Sylvanas's decisions." Until suddenly Baien gets angry.
What a kind of killing civilians does well. Revive evil undead.

if you played in horde side you know that is not true.

you cana rgue that is poorly showed, because it was, bfa entire storyline was crap

That applies to all races. I don't see any giving away land to "enemies".

how they were enemies after helping then save the world?

not all races are xenophobic, most are, some not, Orcs with thrall befriend trolls, taurens and even wyverns in their exodus, they only killed centaurs and quilboars because they wanted to kill then and the tauren, if the night elves wanted they could live peacefully like they do with trolls and taurens.

Even so if they only bring them Thrall's apology. We no longer give an idea of how "cool" they are.

thats rly not much relevant to this point, especially knowing the dialogues are being rly bad those days

Exactly and that leaves us the relationship clear.
Against a greater enemy they help each other. Without a greater enemy they do not help each other.
Tyrande was also able to fail to help the Horde regain Ogrimar and instead simply goes in to kill as much of the Horde as she can from both sides.

But this only came up later, who would know the night elves would turn their backs against the orcs just because they were in their lands? again, they are isolasionists, xenophobics, at least in early days/vanila (they did change now to adapt the concept of nice elves)

That is what I hate about this conflict. They did not even plant what the Horde gave him in return.
If you had told me that the Horde gave him Something and that he strove to achieve that something. I could say it's a Gray Conflict or that the Kaldorei are the bad guys.

But now it's just another cover that the Horde is bad. Although at least at the time it was "bad because the leader is bad." Now with BFA it becomes just bad.

just because we don't know for real what they give in trade don't mean there was no trade and they were getting things for free, plus, the trade only started after the initial conflict breaktrough, after the night elves joined the alliance, yada yada yada.

PS: The really xenofibcos are the Writers who can only see the Horde as a group of monsters. When in truth they are simply "other human cultures with a skin."

but see, night elves were based around wood elves and drow, elves archetypes from dnd and other games, they do are isolationists and they do dislike outsiders, it was their initial traits and they make that very clear from the get to go in reign of chaos

[Magister of Quelthalas]

Yes, but it should ve been given before World of Warcraft. After the Battle for Mount Hyjal when Orcs proved themselves as genuine when they told others, they are no longer seeking war and conquest. Under Thrall's leadership, with the resources gathered from there, new farmlands, new places to settle, Orcs wouldnt have a reason to follow Garrosh and actually Garrosh wouldnt think about the Horde if he found a thriving country instead of one filled with starving people, wrecked by conflict over and over again.

Same happened when Cenarius and his elfs attacked the Orcs without even trying to communicate. When the Orcs were being butchered it was the demons oppurtunity to corrupt them again. Elfs gave their enemies an oppurtunity. It wasnt the last time either. Remember when Night Elfs sabotaged Blood Elf's Arcane Sanctums because they deemed using magic blasphemy? An act that would starve the survivors of an invasion which nearly destroyed their country and drove them to near extinction levels? an Act of WAR! (which was complete opposite of how Warcraft 3 portrayed the relationship between these two races of common ancestry btw.)

With all that said by the time of Sylvanas as the Warchief. The Horde was already agitated to the edge. And they were blamed for the Alliance High King's death too, all of sudden. Sylvanas just used that state for her goals. So even if they did give Ashenvale post Legion. Sylvanas would find a way to legitimize assaulting Darkshore.
Elfs choosed years of conflict when they drove orcs to the deserts because they believed those ugly brutes didn't deserve lush forests or habitable lands.

[VladlTutushkin]

Yes, but it should ve been given before World of Warcraft. After the Battle for Mount Hyjal when Orcs proved themselves as genuine when they told others, they are no longer seeking war and conquest. Under Thrall's leadership, with the resources gathered from there, new farmlands, new places to settle, Orcs wouldnt have a reason to follow Garrosh and actually Garrosh wouldnt think about the Horde if he found a thriving country instead of one filled with starving people, wrecked by conflict over and over again.

Same happened when Cenarius and his elfs attacked the Orcs without even trying to communicate. When the Orcs were being butchered it was the demons oppurtunity to corrupt them again. Elfs gave their enemies an oppurtunity. It wasnt the last time either. Remember when Night Elfs sabotaged Blood Elf's Arcane Sanctums because they deemed using magic blasphemy? An act that would starve the survivors of an invasion which nearly destroyed their country and drove them to near extinction levels? an Act of WAR! (which was complete opposite of how Warcraft 3 portrayed the relationship between these two races of common ancestry btw.)

With all that said by the time of Sylvanas as the Warchief. The Horde was already agitated to the edge. And they were blamed for the Alliance High King's death too, all of sudden. Sylvanas just used that state for her goals. So even if they did give Ashenvale post Legion. Sylvanas would find a way to legitimize assaulting Darkshore.
Elfs choosed years of conflict when they drove orcs to the deserts because they believed those ugly brutes didn't deserve lush forests or habitable lands.

Orcs do not “deserve” land that belongs to others. If you truly have such “elevated” moral standards that you will give your own land to others simply because they dont have equally nice land then you should prove it by giving half of your house/home/apartment to a homeless people. Preferably immigrants too. If that is slightly too much for you then imagine how bad must be giving half of your ancestral homeland to people who will simply deforest, destroy and turn it into barren wasteland in years.

[Le Conceptuel]

The idea that the Horde was majority opposed to Sylvanas' war goals is the most desperate form of coping in the recent story. The entire story is predicated on Sylvanas having majority support - shamans helped burn the tree, trolls used night elves for target practice. Orcs tell you that the Horde will always be hers in Brennadam as they nab Kul Tiran land. Orcs are ready to chop down Sadfang and Green Jesus in the Underhold while talking about how they have no honor. Tauren arrest Baine and the Earthmother blessed the drums to help the war effort. The only reason the Horde at large ultimately turned on her is because she called them mean doodoo heads and flew off because of her supremely low IQ, not wideranging policy disagreement. Hell, one of the last things you do is beat up Eitrigg and drag him through the streets where the citizens fling rotten apples at him.

That is not an incidental element, it is the entire core of the story - that the population are by and large morons and need their beliefs corrected by imposition from up above. Is it stupid that orcs and tauren don't care about the defilement of their dead in Lordaeron? Does it make sense that they're gung-ho for the war up until the exact second their leader calls them names whereupon they become peaceniks? Of course not, BFA is wretched, but that's the story as presented.

@Le Conceptuel

It's largely accidental. Theramore is treated as the worst thing to ever happen, but due to the way Garrosh's strategy required waiting so he could wait for as many troops to assemble as possible before nuking them, evacuation was always going to happen. This isn't out of any special solidarity for the people there, those he does grab are used for target practice later after all, much like Kul Tiras does to captives, so he's not some peak humanitarian, but Garrosh has never gone out of his way to target civilians.

It's kind of a shame they wasted him as a final boss. I'd have at least saved him for BfA. He's sincerely an interesting character (by Warcraft standards, at least)

It was, obviously, the natural consequence of his warmongering, but I figured there could have more to him.

[geco]

you cana rgue that is poorly showed, because it was, bfa entire storyline was crap

Well that builds on everything. But we can't see more than that.
There's the real Horde and whatever Blizzard writes.
With the Horde really none of these issues happened XD.

how they were enemies after helping then save the world?

We will never know. Chronicle literally does not mention anything about why the Kaldorei are even alliance ... just as Chronicles is not cannon.

not all races are xenophobic, most are, some not, Orcs with thrall befriend trolls, taurens and even wyverns in their exodus, they only killed centaurs and quilboars because they wanted to kill then and the tauren, if the night elves wanted they could live peacefully like they do with trolls and taurens.

And the Kaldorei help:
Draenei (They literally gave him lands), Worgen, Belfos, Akama and friends, Taurens, Fulbogs, Tigers and owls (If you see them as towns), the trees, diadras and insurance are missing.
Not to mention that they do not discriminate against their undead counterparts with Humans.

The Kaldoeri are no more xenophobic than any other race.

just because we don't know for real what they give in trade don't mean there was no trade and they were getting things for free, plus, the trade only started after the initial conflict breaktrough, after the night elves joined the alliance, yada yada yada.

Basically, according to the story, it is something so irrelevant that they don't even mention it.
You can blame history for what it is.

but see, night elves were based around wood elves and drow, elves archetypes from dnd and other games, they do are isolationists and they do dislike outsiders, it was their initial traits and they make that very clear from the get to go in reign of chaos

And the orcs are based on the Orcs of Warhammer.


PD: You really do know about the Drows. Elune is Eilistraee. Loth's rebellious daughter.
Goddess of song, beauty, dance, swordwork, hunting, and moonlight.

Yes, but it should ve been given before World of Warcraft. After the Battle for Mount Hyjal when Orcs proved themselves as genuine when they told others, they are no longer seeking war and conquest. Under Thrall's leadership, with the resources gathered from there, new farmlands, new places to settle, Orcs wouldnt have a reason to follow Garrosh and actually Garrosh wouldnt think about the Horde if he found a thriving country instead of one filled with starving people, wrecked by conflict over and over again.

Same happened when Cenarius and his elfs attacked the Orcs without even trying to communicate. When the Orcs were being butchered it was the demons oppurtunity to corrupt them again. Elfs gave their enemies an oppurtunity. It wasnt the last time either. Remember when Night Elfs sabotaged Blood Elf's Arcane Sanctums because they deemed using magic blasphemy? An act that would starve the survivors of an invasion which nearly destroyed their country and drove them to near extinction levels? an Act of WAR! (which was complete opposite of how Warcraft 3 portrayed the relationship between these two races of common ancestry btw.)

With all that said by the time of Sylvanas as the Warchief. The Horde was already agitated to the edge. And they were blamed for the Alliance High King's death too, all of sudden. Sylvanas just used that state for her goals. So even if they did give Ashenvale post Legion. Sylvanas would find a way to legitimize assaulting Darkshore.
Elfs choosed years of conflict when they drove orcs to the deserts because they believed those ugly brutes didn't deserve lush forests or habitable lands.

That would only make sense if the Orcs agreed to become vassals of the Kaldorei.
It would have been quite an interesting story.

[Soon-TM]

It's unfathomable that even years later, with dozens of revelations to the contrary you still buy the propaganda that Sylvanas started the war because of Genn. Sure she is pissed at him, but her reasons for starting the war should be very evident by now...

Also, for the sake of fact. Tyrande did not expect Thrall to apologize, she doesn't give a crap about the insencere apology of the Orcs or the Horde, knowing they will betray them again anyway. She expects the head of the Banshee, maybe then she will decide to not drop a moon on Orgrimmar. We will see.

I was talking strictly about the events around the Shattering, so spare me your virtuous, self righteous indignation

[vilememory]

Anyplace that has trees the Night Elves consider to be sacred, they could make the grasslands of the Barrens turn into a forest then declare it their sacred ancestral land. The Night Elves have always had a kill first order everybody out attitude, the only reason they tolerated the Tauren is because they knew better than to set hoof in the forest. Hell, give us that expansion! Night Elves abusing Azeroth by forcing the growth of forests to expand their territory! Killing every other race that is in them, including members of the Alliance!

[VladlTutushkin]

Anyplace that has trees the Night Elves consider to be sacred, they could make the grasslands of the Barrens turn into a forest then declare it their sacred ancestral land. The Night Elves have always had a kill first order everybody out attitude, the only reason they tolerated the Tauren is because they knew better than to set hoof in the forest. Hell, give us that expansion! Night Elves abusing Azeroth by forcing the growth of forests to expand their territory! Killing every other race that is in them, including members of the Alliance!

Are you insane? Literally in no time in their history they have ever done that. Night elves always wanted only to be left alone in their woods, not expanding them or wanting any more land.

Only forest in the Barrens i can think about is Overgrowth which was a collective fuckup of a Cenarion Circle mission which btw included tauren.

[ravenmoon]

Ashenvale was the primary cause of Alliance and Horde's tensions in Kalimdor -- Durotar and Orgrimmar lacked the essential resources to sustain their population properly after the Third War, and the night elves seemed less than willing to provide them. It has been a major point of conflict -- in the original game, Cataclysm, in the Fourth War, etc.

As far as we know, Tyrande giving Azshara to the Horde was able to guarantee at least several years of peace, as the Horde abandoned most of their outposts in Ashenvale.

What if Tyrande and her night elves just gave the orcs half their territory? Would that have settled tensions between them permanently, and perhaps even averted or settled the Alliance-Horde faction conflict once and for all?

Overall, I'm not sure, because the it 's up to the writers.. but tbh, blizzard wantedt he horde and alliance fighting on Kalimdor, and the major power on Kalimdor , the Night elves,,were aligned with the alliance, so they were always goign to clash with them, regardless of whether the Night elves were written to give the horde half of Ashenvale or not.

Purely from an in-game perspective, ... at first no, but I think in time, the orcs, and horde would have demanded more and more and more, not sharing the same philosophy or beliefs of the sanctity of flora and fauna life, and having come from Draenor, a world where the biggest enemies of orc kind were the vegetation, I don't think the orcs would ever have regarded the forest like the night elves do, like any elf does.

Elves love forests, even the most arcane ones amongst the night elves, are written to build beautiful cities of arcane and nature magic combined.. andt he themee is consistent from druid, to mage centred sides of the elves, even in the high elves and blood elves - lots of forests. Elves love nature, care for it, etc, Orcs, well, it's a nuisance, and it's best use is to provide lumber for building or burning cook fires.

Wanna bet orcs are not vegetarians, and probably don't have any real strong aggrarian culture either, they have some, but little, their history their source of food comes mainly from hunting, not farming. The vegetation is for destroying and the fauna for food and sport -

they would ALWAYS clash with the elves. And only under the most dire of circumstances can I see elves and orcs working together, like the Blood elves had to do thanks to Kael'thas or like they've had to in recent wars.

So from an in-game perspective.. it's very likely they'd have fought. Thrall's horde had not reformed enough to be able to live with the elves in harmony, and by nature Orcs are a lot more aggressive, confrontational, but especially war mongering- they love to fight and their honour system is built around fighting , and settlign disputes with duels etc -- this means that despite the more honour based reform, they'd have still been easily willing to fight.. tHe draenei avoided the orcs because their super advanced cities were magi-tech hidden until kil'jaeden manipulated the orsc and showed them how to break through their tech.

[Shoggoth]

Orcs? Peace?

[Kalisandra]

it does, read rise of the horde, KJ had to work really hard to convince them to attack their peaceful neighbors, in fact orcs as far we know never initiated war in their homeland, always on defense
But as i said blizz already sh8t on it so f8ck it anyway i guess

Warriors. Honor. These are things a war-like culture has. Orcs were always warlike, just not immediately given to conquest - that took a little prodding. However, the idea that it took a lot of work is a recent one in warcraft lore, and once they got a taste, well atrocities and invading whole new worlds because they could was right down their alley.

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I don't remember if Azshara had furbolg and such when it was a neutral territory, but by the time it was officially given to the Horde they had already conquered and ravaged it anyway, and everyone were exhausted by war. A curious thing though: I thought the same deal require Horde to pull all their forces out of Ashenvale, yet in War of Thorns we learn Zoram'gar outpost is still in operation.

Azhara had Furbolgs in it (Timbermaw, I think).

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Definitely, but not that of a directly underhanded schemer, like you've made him appear. He was evil, but a pretty strict Lawful Evil - his rules were always his rules. I suppose if you were to really twist things, you could even say that it makes sense he'd distinguish between Theramore and the Druid school because the latter had Horde members present who didn't go against him or his plans and the former was still a target they were at least already going after.

Nah. If he was at all 'lawful evil' he wouldn't have had everyone killed to cover up the bombing. The only reason the player was spared was because the original whistleblowers plead for the player's life. Never mind that the player was there to gather evidence for the whistleblowers, they were a direct witness and so had to die. And when Garrosh killed the general who ordered it, he was all about how it was a stain on the Horde's honor and thus HIS honor. It was in fact all about him, and his image. It wasn't about rule of law at all.

A further example of this is how he's fine with his bodyguards smacking down a goblin admiral for advising against going after an 'Alliance' fleet during the invasion of the Twilight Highlands. Because apparently your experts giving expert advice is wrong of them. And once everyone washed ashore after the 'Alliance Fleet' turned out not to be and to be an ambush and everything went south, Garrosh never acknowledged that it happened. Hell, he basically pretended the whole disaster never happened, and he certainly never owned his stuff-up.

Garrosh's an all too believable character - there are plenty of real-world leaders that act just like him, but he was a terrible leader. Everything was about him and his ego. Thrall and Saurfang's attempts to straighten him out in Northrend were a complete failure, and Thrall's unwillingness to admit that led to yet more murder and death. Letting the Shado-Pan just lock him up was yet another mistake. He didn't surrender when Thrall and the 'champions' turned up under Orgrimmar, and then tried to kill them out of hand, so no need to try and capture him alive. He should've just been killed on the spot, but the politicians had to go and make a mess of a nice clean finish.

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Both horde and alliance people were killed and the night elves claimed the horde should be the ones to apologize, seek the guilty, yada yada yada, implying they were the ones to blame

It happened on Horde land, so yes, they should have been the ones to investigate, and find and punish those responsible, and they were the ones who failed to provide adequate security. I'm sure Garrosh would've been thrilled if the Night Elves had barged on into the Barrens and ran an investigation into who killed the druids.

Garrosh rudely brushed them off, so they imposed economic sanctions, as nations often do in such situations.

[tripleh]

Funny thing is the orcs didn't need to raid ashenvale for anything. There own druids could use there own magic to grow trees/lumber and veggies/fruits if needed. The orcs screwed there own homeworld up using the same concept of war and conquering. It's there primitive dna they have. It infected the other races that joined the horde. I am sure they could have traded with the others races of the horde in order to get needed supplies. But its more about the addiction to bloodshed that drives them. On draenor the orcs didn't need allies to take over. On azeroth its different, because they needed allies in order to survive against the other races.

[TheRevenantHero]

Realistically? Yes because then the Horde would not have felt like they were being treated like absolute dirt. Elves make homes out of the trees and eat the animals but apparently the orcs can't do the same. The night elves are racist and Azeroth has paid for it.

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Funny thing is the orcs didn't need to raid ashenvale for anything. There own druids could use there own magic to grow trees/lumber and veggies/fruits if needed. The orcs screwed there own homeworld up using the same concept of war and conquering. It's there primitive dna they have. It infected the other races that joined the horde. I am sure they could have traded with the others races of the horde in order to get needed supplies. But its more about the addiction to bloodshed that drives them. On draenor the orcs didn't need allies to take over. On azeroth its different, because they needed allies in order to survive against the other races.

Orcs don't have druids. They have shamans. Also, Draenor got screwed because Ner'zhul and Gul'dan were tempted to the fel by the Burning Legion. Ya know....the army of demons that the draenei led to their world. Before that, they had spats with the ogres here and there but it really wasn't super aggressive war. It's NOT in their DNA.

[Jastall]

Of course not. It would have delayed conflict for a few years at best, but the Horde's endless thirst for resources, wasteful use of such, Varian's warmongering, and Garrosh's equal warmongering would have caused a war regardless. The fact that, after capturing Darkshore, the Horde then proceeded to try and turn it into a toxic wasteland within, at most, months leads credence to the idea that they can't be bothered properly using even resource rich areas anyway.