Why is end game tailored so much against the casual player?

[TheRevenantHero]

Good. You haven't shown me a reason why it shouldn't be. I force fed you a mod to teach you your rotation and you can google your stat builds. You have all the tools but you refuse to touch them. Nothing should be built for you in mind.

No. Nothing should be built for people like YOU in mind. The casuals are who are funding the game. They outnumber hardcore players by A LOT. Also, you have yet to say why a casual getting gear at all impacts YOUR play time. Is it because then you can't flex on them and tell them to "get good"? How does someone else's play time somehow ruin YOUR play time?

[Crimson Spears]

So, thank you for admitting I'm right, I guess?

You talk as if I haven't tried all that stuff. Checking a stat priority on icy-veins helps, but it doesn't do much by itself.

Maybe if I add a song it will help?



I refuse to believe you can't improve.

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No. Nothing should be built for people like YOU in mind. The casuals are who are funding the game. They outnumber hardcore players by A LOT. Also, you have yet to say why a casual getting gear at all impacts YOUR play time. Is it because then you can't flex on them and tell them to "get good"? How does someone else's play time somehow ruin YOUR play time?

Frist off im the one playing for six hours a week here don't attack a casual with your hardcore rhetoric. As for why not just put gear everywhere I rather not burn down the games progressions system because the guy spamming whatever spell the game auto assigned his two key is green with envy.

[BraveNewWorld]

in what world utilizing a hybrid class that has tank/dps/heal or 2xdps/heal or tank is min maxing?
It is already in the game, I'm not a developer. It was this way from 2004 and basically is like a false advertisement of your class,
it's like saying you will get 3 in 1, but you don't, and before you discredit me again, my point is:
switching a spec is not a small feat,
and if it was, a lot of smaller guilds could play their raids, mostly mythic difficulty would benefit,
but also I could see it being good for any guild there is,
no matter the level they are playing on.

Switching spec used to cost 50g and some item adjustments,
now it cost an arm and an leg,
pros will always adapt, they no life this game, we all know it.

and as many posters touched before:
casuals bring the most revenue, it is a fact, that's not something one can discuss.

Lastly, as a long time gamer, it really saddens me to see how this community became so elitist and entitled.
People only care about themselves, and nobody cares about hanging out with them boys,
like in the good ol' days.
Nobody would suffer, if you could switch your spec on the fly,
but as no lifers don't need it, they won't support it, because it would take from their elitist factor,
honestly - l2p.

The only reason you're complaining is because you're bad, that's it.

My guild needed me to go feral for Mythic Sludgefist because we needed an even number of melee. No problem, swapped one conduit around, and we could continue prog. The next week I had to tank for the first hour, no problem, swap a conduit, I didn't die once. If they had asked me to heal I would have been able to do it as well. I play all my 4 specs at a high level and I don't see how you couldn't, even as casual. If you're not bad, of course.

[TheRevenantHero]

Maybe if I add a song it will help?



I refuse to believe you can't improve.

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Frist off im the one playing for six hours a week here don't attack a casual with your hardcore rhetoric. As for why not just put gear everywhere I rather not burn down the games progressions system because the guy spamming whatever spell the game auto assigned his two key is green with envy.

So you don't actually have an answer. You have no logical reason for why you think OTHER people don't deserve something in the game. You have no logical reason why OTHER people's play time impacts yours or anyone else's.

[rhorle]

Except, not really, when in SL everything is either high key M+ focused, raiding focused, and rated PvP focused. People like me don't even get a great vault option. The contempt dripping down from the devs for players like me is palapable in SL.

M+, Mythic raiding, and rated PvP is pretty much the same as lower difficulty modes of the same activities. The only difference is the item level of your gear or the achievements, mounts, and cosmetics you have access too. Not everyone can do everything. Outside of a few mythic only phases of boss encounters the story and stuff is all the same at lower levels.

[callipygoustp]

Except, not really, when in SL everything is either high key M+ focused, raiding focused, and rated PvP focused. People like me don't even get a great vault option. The contempt dripping down from the devs for players like me is palapable in SL.

Ok Ok, you've expressed, ad nauseam, the sentiment that you have no skills in the game and that you are unable to develop any meaningful skills. What do you want Blizzard and/or other players to do about it?

[Tadkins]

M+, Mythic raiding, and rated PvP is pretty much the same as lower difficulty modes of the same activities. The only difference is the item level of your gear or the achievements, mounts, and cosmetics you have access too. Not everyone can do everything. Outside of a few mythic only phases of boss encounters the story and stuff is all the same at lower levels.

Even the lower leveled stuff requires you to have people take you. I've been looking for a group to join for a while now without much luck.

[rhorle]

Even the lower leveled stuff requires you to have people take you. I've been looking for a group to join for a while now without much luck.

Then do LFR, Heroics, skirmishes, and battlegrounds. They can all be done with random match making. Your server may just be dead if you've been unable to find zero groups or guilds recruiting.

[Tadkins]

Then do LFR, Heroics, skirmishes, and battlegrounds. They can all be done with random match making. Your server may just be dead if you've been unable to find zero groups or guilds recruiting.

LFR and heroics are fun, but the PvP options are kind of pointless because I'm just going to get trashed at the gear levels I'm allowed to have. I don't have a choice to fight people at my level in those. That's the only reason I say anything, because I would love to be able to queue for random BGs and turn on warmode again.

It isn't a server issue though because I've been posting on guild recruitment forums and discords, trying to find a place to reroll fresh to when/if I come back to the game. I'll go anywhere I have to for that. Just trying to find a kind, accepting guild that won't rage at someone trying to learn and making mistakes.

[rhorle]

LFR and heroics are fun, but the PvP options are kind of pointless because I'm just going to get trashed at the gear levels I'm allowed to have. I don't have a choice to fight people at my level in those. That's the only reason I say anything, because I would love to be able to queue for random BGs and turn on warmode again.

You won't get trashed at item level 200. You can still participate and contribute to battlegrounds and skirmishes are hit and miss. Item level 200 is easily obtainable because world quests cap out at 194, covenant upgrades at 197, and weekly quests that reward higher loot will take you easily to 200. The trouble you state you have playing your class has a far great impact then the item level of your gear you can obtain.

No guild will recruit a person or offer them a spot for a fresh reroll and a "if or when" you come back to the game. That is just silly to expect that. And to get spot like that reserved would require some kind of exceptional offer on your behalf. Friendship, skill, logs, something. You keep creating all of these excuses. Before you claimed you had to watch hours of videos just to do normal raid encounters and all the other silly exaggerations.

There are a lot of guilds that don't rage. You are likely letting the bad experiences taint your outlook or there is something else contributing to the number of guilds that can't put up with you.

[TyrannicalPuppy]

Because some of us have lives and being a HaRdCoRe GaMeR isn't the badge of honour you think it is?

[Revamp Man]

LFR and heroics are fun, but the PvP options are kind of pointless because I'm just going to get trashed at the gear levels I'm allowed to have. I don't have a choice to fight people at my level in those. That's the only reason I say anything, because I would love to be able to queue for random BGs and turn on warmode again.

It isn't a server issue though because I've been posting on guild recruitment forums and discords, trying to find a place to reroll fresh to when/if I come back to the game. I'll go anywhere I have to for that. Just trying to find a kind, accepting guild that won't rage at someone trying to learn and making mistakes.

thats pretty much any guild dude

however if you say "yeah im probably gonna come back but im not sure so can i park my toon here and if i come back can you take me to raid?" i dont think you would ever get an invite lol
if you are US alliance look up CTR on aerie peak you will find like 20 teams

you are also able to do everything for pvp that you just mentioned as well especially since gear in a random BG wont be as meaningful as not fighting in the middle of the map

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Based on other comments you've made, I have absolutely no reason to believe you at all. You have been blatantly dishonest. The fact that you are saying it's so easy to just walk into a guild and raid by just "showing them logs" proves you're a liar. That doesn't happen. Ever. It's the same kind of ridiculous comment the older generation makes when they say you can just walk into a business and ask for a job and get hired. Absolutely NOBODY just waltzes into a new guild and immediately gets to raid. It just doesn't happen.

so i should tell my new GM that i cant do my trial this weekend because i cant just walk into the guild and raid

[Tadkins]

You won't get trashed at item level 200. You can still participate and contribute to battlegrounds and skirmishes are hit and miss. Item level 200 is easily obtainable because world quests cap out at 194, covenant upgrades at 197, and weekly quests that reward higher loot will take you easily to 200. The trouble you state you have playing your class has a far great impact then the item level of your gear you can obtain.

No guild will recruit a person or offer them a spot for a fresh reroll and a "if or when" you come back to the game. That is just silly to expect that. And to get spot like that reserved would require some kind of exceptional offer on your behalf. Friendship, skill, logs, something. You keep creating all of these excuses. Before you claimed you had to watch hours of videos just to do normal raid encounters and all the other silly exaggerations.

There are a lot of guilds that don't rage. You are likely letting the bad experiences taint your outlook or there is something else contributing to the number of guilds that can't put up with you.

Weirdly enough I do okay in random PvP. I played an arcane build that gave me tons of mobility and escape options and it was fun kiting everything from one end of the battleground to the other. But this was in BfA where I could have a decent level of gear. I just worry that I won't be able to 1v1 anything at all and I'll have to always stick to the group like a baby to its mother, even if the group is doing something dumb like fighting in the middle while a flag carrier runs by them.

I figured any friendly guild would be okay with chatting with me, and then saying I could come join them, just so I know where to reroll to when my computer issues are resolved. As I said I'm not looking for a mythic guild, just a friendly normal/possibly heroic one. Aren't rosters like that more open-ended? I'm just afraid of coming back, leveling to 60, gearing up a little, and finding the same problems just with more time and money down the drain.

I have had a lot of bad experiences with guilds, but I do admit I'm not the most socially adept person. I have also had great experiences with guilds that end up falling apart anyway though. Can't help it when they choose to go "on hiatus". I do have trouble making connections with people, the abuse and bullying I've faced over the decades have kind of seen to that. I'm still just trying to find a good home in this game I love despite that.

[Revamp Man]

this thread should be titled: Why is the community perception of the game so wrong??

hardcore players called out how the covenant system was crap since alpha but got shouted down by the masses "give it a chance its meaningful choice and fun. You just want to take away my fun. Min/max players deserve to have a bad time" then what are we like 6 months after launch and now people are finally seeing the issues with the system and saying "the hardcore elitists love it" no...it has always been a crappy system the issue is it was called out before launch but the casual players ignored it because it wasnt going to effect them but after seeing the "elitists" get cool fun stuff it is now an issue...just like the mage tower.

"you cant mount in the maw unless you get this rare mount" at first praised by the masses because "its funnnn." but quickly became "we now agree with the others but they secretly love it because they can do it" and the same with the stygia farm and the torghast TC mode rewards and now even mounting in the maw because little timmy bought a TC carry and found out he wasted money on it.

The game is so tailored to the hardcore players that it requires more time investment than ever before to be competitive at the high end while compared to the casual players that dont raid or do m+ because they dont want to put in the effort of making their own groups can get a full set of gear in like 3 days because of the renown catch up?? No stygia farm required no rep grind required nothing more than simply playing the game.

"Casual players cant play off specs because they are so utterly gimped no group will ever take them and guilds dont use those off specs on the low end" meanwhile here i am healing shriekwing heroic without my legendary equipped which made my entire rotation like 80% less effective and my guild didnt kick me. LFR has players in offspecs healing and tanking all the time and its easy to see because they often dont swap their trinkets.

"some people cant form their own groups because of personal issues or time restraints" also known as "i cant get a carry for my +2 key because the only ones who sign up are around my ilvl" then you get a player who is lucky with world boss drops and has their leggo and pieces from the timewalking weekly and maybe the mythic weekly wondering why they dont get invited to the +7 because it rewards the same ilvl they have and say "its because raider io is elitist" completely ignoring it is exactly what they would do and on the off chance they do get invited they wonder why the other players arent blowing everything up in giant aoe packs on bolstering weeks and they refuse to interrupt casts and then when they get told to interrupt they cry about players being elitist and mean ignoring the fact they are the reason for 6 deaths before the second boss.

Seeing people post "this is what the hardcore do" and then say something like "they are ok with the covenant system" is like the guy at a ren faire watching the sword fights and saying "oh that guy screwed up i would have done it better by doing this" while not knowing anything beyond how to hold the sword.

Casual players literally have the easiest time in this game right now between the quick renown catch up and the free gear to the fact they dont even need to grind legendary recipes because of the fact you can buy a book that teaches them to you and all it requires is a freaking daily but you still get this thread and players saying "yeah screw those guys not teaching me a 6 month old raid boss shriekwing"

[Crimson Spears]

this thread should be titled: Why is the community perception of the game so wrong??

hardcore players called out how the covenant system was crap since alpha but got shouted down by the masses "give it a chance its meaningful choice and fun. You just want to take away my fun. Min/max players deserve to have a bad time" then what are we like 6 months after launch and now people are finally seeing the issues with the system and saying "the hardcore elitists love it" no...it has always been a crappy system the issue is it was called out before launch but the casual players ignored it because it wasnt going to effect them but after seeing the "elitists" get cool fun stuff it is now an issue...just like the mage tower.

"you cant mount in the maw unless you get this rare mount" at first praised by the masses because "its funnnn." but quickly became "we now agree with the others but they secretly love it because they can do it" and the same with the stygia farm and the torghast TC mode rewards and now even mounting in the maw because little timmy bought a TC carry and found out he wasted money on it.

The game is so tailored to the hardcore players that it requires more time investment than ever before to be competitive at the high end while compared to the casual players that dont raid or do m+ because they dont want to put in the effort of making their own groups can get a full set of gear in like 3 days because of the renown catch up?? No stygia farm required no rep grind required nothing more than simply playing the game.

"Casual players cant play off specs because they are so utterly gimped no group will ever take them and guilds dont use those off specs on the low end" meanwhile here i am healing shriekwing heroic without my legendary equipped which made my entire rotation like 80% less effective and my guild didnt kick me. LFR has players in offspecs healing and tanking all the time and its easy to see because they often dont swap their trinkets.

"some people cant form their own groups because of personal issues or time restraints" also known as "i cant get a carry for my +2 key because the only ones who sign up are around my ilvl" then you get a player who is lucky with world boss drops and has their leggo and pieces from the timewalking weekly and maybe the mythic weekly wondering why they dont get invited to the +7 because it rewards the same ilvl they have and say "its because raider io is elitist" completely ignoring it is exactly what they would do and on the off chance they do get invited they wonder why the other players arent blowing everything up in giant aoe packs on bolstering weeks and they refuse to interrupt casts and then when they get told to interrupt they cry about players being elitist and mean ignoring the fact they are the reason for 6 deaths before the second boss.

Seeing people post "this is what the hardcore do" and then say something like "they are ok with the covenant system" is like the guy at a ren faire watching the sword fights and saying "oh that guy screwed up i would have done it better by doing this" while not knowing anything beyond how to hold the sword.

Casual players literally have the easiest time in this game right now between the quick renown catch up and the free gear to the fact they dont even need to grind legendary recipes because of the fact you can buy a book that teaches them to you and all it requires is a freaking daily but you still get this thread and players saying "yeah screw those guys not teaching me a 6 month old raid boss shriekwing"

Your right but you are going to be ignored.

It is easier to just simply learn to distain them and charge them highway robbery prices via carries.

It is more rewarding to be the villain's they desperately want us to be then trying to help them. Its the helping that enrages them not the spite.

[Deadmesia]

Hi.
I've been playing casually since some events in my life forced me to not take the game so serious,
so I've been in some less organized groups who still raid some mythic and with my experience from some competitive gaming I came into some strange conclusions.

Switching a spec takes only 10 seconds, and there are so many hybrid classes, yet there is no practical way to utilize them,
if one doesn't spend considerable amount of time and Shadowlands is even less forgiving in that regard since covenants came into the mix,
and one spec can be vastly superior when using a certain one, while being less than optimal in other,
so for example a healer spec of some class, can use a different covenant than a dps spec from the same character.

Switching a covenant can be done once a week, and one has to also do some chores on top of it,
farming a 235ilvl legend takes approximately 5 weeks. 5250/1140 Soul Ash per week
there is also farming Stygia, which I wouldn't personally say is that bad in itself, but can be really tiring, if you want to do it on multiple toons.

Now, I brought the casual player argument because, it seems to me like the ones who really suffer from this IMO stupid design choice,
are the guilds on the lower end. Someone can't attend a raid and a healer/tank is missing. The guild has many hybrid classes in the group,
but none are using it, because it is so gimped.
I've noticed that a lot of players wouldn't mind to switch it here and there, even though they wouldn't want to stay that role full time,
but there is really little to no incentive to even try it.
Lower end guilds would benefit from it, even if it was: 'John could you heal today, so we could raid?'
and I don't think higher end ones would suffer.

Then there is another design choice that the developers set on, and it seems it will stay this way forever: 2 tanks, mostly 4-5 healers, rest dps.
Most of these fights for tanks are: switch[taunt] after X amount of stacks, that's it - done; or switch after Y ability.

I got 2 characters, one is a Monk who can play every role, and 2nd is a Mage who is a beast when it comes to dps. I personally would find it really cool if a certain encounter demanded for example 5 tanks, other one 8-10 healers, another 15 dps with 1 tank, and I would be able to fluidly change my spec on my hybrid class, but I cannot do it, as it's a huge time sink. I already am playing Brew with my friends in M+ and WW on raids, and I'd love to chill on MW sometimes, but it's impossible to imagine.
Players who cannot fathom not being somewhere around the top of 'Damage Done' dps meter can stay pure dps.

I doubt it will change the way things are, but I just wanted to see how other players feel about it.

EDIT: Since so many people miss the point: by casual I don't mean bad, I mean players who don't spend their whole life on the game, and have limited time, but still want to accomplish something more than farming achievements/mounts etc.

What i would like to know is what you mean. Your statement
does not have a point you can raid 2 days a week for 3 hours and be heroic geared, or you can do the ladder climb in mythic plus and gear up that way. The game is pretty chill now if you don't have time ro put into the game no more and your happy with the people your playing with what are you wanting. I play a few hours here and there and im 220+ all you have to do is use your time right stop complaining and set goals for yourself, and go at your pace and not compare yourself to others.

[Doffen]

SL is as casual friendly as it gets when it comes to progressing your character. Covenant is the most casual friendly power system we have had since they started with this in Legion. Its extremely light in comparison to Artifact weapon, legiondairies, essences, Azerite Armor and corruption.

And its only that, and getting that leggo. Just upgraded mine from 210 to 225(soul ash from mission lol, casual af) and the upgrade is minimum.

[Dastreus]

Then you remember either wrong or some people that were Larping. People literally replaced raid epics with heroic dungeon loot in WolTK which were arguably one of the easiest set of dungeons in the games history.

idk man, there were threads of people mad that "casuals can raid now?"

[CaptainV]

Because the elitist tryhards are the content creators so Blizzard is now leaning towards catering to them even though it's causing people to leave in droves.

Literally that.

The issue is that too much content in wow has veered towards exclusively forcing you to progress or be left behind, theres a reason 14 works these days and even is growing in players, while wow is in decline, and its literally to do with accessability, the more accessable your game is, the more interest and demand there is to play it.

Likewise, the opposite creates an adverse effect.

This is why WOTLK was and always will be the peak of WoW's interest, because it was *accessable* it didnt need to be hardcore, it was hardcore *enough*.

[TheRevenantHero]

Literally that.

The issue is that too much content in wow has veered towards exclusively forcing you to progress or be left behind, theres a reason 14 works these days and even is growing in players, while wow is in decline, and its literally to do with accessability, the more accessable your game is, the more interest and demand there is to play it.

Likewise, the opposite creates an adverse effect.

This is why WOTLK was and always will be the peak of WoW's interest, because it was *accessable* it didnt need to be hardcore, it was hardcore *enough*.

Also, the game is accessible with the harder difficulties being there if people want to do it. The difference is in FF14, it is pretty much only for bragging rights, transmog, and exclusive mounts.