Blizzard trying to dictate what is "meaningful".

[Popokolara]

You got your answer. And the whole point is that it isn't, so you trying to bring it up isn't, either.

no you didnt answer. you dodged the question.
And you brought up anecdotal evidence which i consider irrelevant. So either stop dodging, or stop polluting the thread with misdirection and empty sentences.

[Zantera]

I suspect you're being sarcastic here, but other MMOs do exactly this. Maybe not "on the fly" but yeah.

Being able to switch your class at all for your character sounds like the worst thing you could ever put into a MMO game

[huth]

no you didnt answer. you dodged the question.
And you brought up anecdotal evidence which i consider irrelevant. So either stop dodging, or stop polluting the thread with misdirection and empty sentences.

That you don't like the answer doesn't mean that i didn't give you one. You're the one that brought in anecdotal evidence with your Disc priest example.

[Osmeric]

If conduits were the only problem with SL I'd be happy with it. But to me so many things were made bad that I just could not keep playing. No single fix will do anything about that for me.

[Crimson Spears]

Choosing your class. You still can't change that one. Seems like you weren't looking very hard.

I have no idea what point your trying to make. Are you trying to claim covenants should match class choice?

[Osmeric]

Im not the first to defend blizzard, but its their game to do with as they wish. But you're allowed to disagree with their developments.

And we are allowed to unsub and allow the devs to suffer the consequences of their decisions. They can do as they wish, in the same sense that anyone can stick a fork in a wall socket if they wish.

[Popokolara]

That you don't like the answer doesn't mean that i didn't give you one. You're the one that brought in anecdotal evidence with your Disc priest example.

I asked what kind of % disparity you find acceptable. You did not answer that question no matter how you try to twist it.

Anecdotal evidence:Anecdotal evidence is a factual claim relying only on personal observation, collected in a casual or non-systematic manner.

The disparity in disc is not something that varies from one player to another. Its a constant, mathematical result. It is NOT anecdotal. Nor is disc the only one in 30+ specs that has worrying differences.


Can you at least, since you refuse to say something that you might have to be responsible for, explain to me what you consider viable?
What about, i am getting carried, with 3/4 healers like me we couldnt kill the boss, but with 1/4 like me, after many additional wipes the 3 healers would output like mad, mad enough to finish the fight? Would you consider that viable?

[Stormwolf64]

And we are allowed to unsub and allow the devs to suffer the consequences of their decisions. They can do as they wish, in the same sense that anyone can stick a fork in a wall socket if they wish.

Exactly right.

[Kantoro]

Let's just get into it straight away. "Meaningful" content is extremely subjective. For some people transmog is meaningful. For other people gold farming is meaningful. It completely depends on who you are. So the idea that Blizzard can tell us "this is a meaningful choice" is absolutely insane. Because it only holds meaning if it has meaning for the specific person.

In the latest Preach Interview Ion said two things concerning the Conduit Energy that really annoys me:

1) "They wanted to avoid another system where you swap to Conduits on every boss."

Why? Why is it a problem if a few players wants to swap Conduits for every boss? It's a part of class customization. And most players wont do it anyway just like most players don't even change talents between bosses. Why do you have to make these unnecessarily restrictive rules just because a few players are going to swap conduits on every boss. Also, it's not like the conduits have any complexity. It's just another passive talent row.

2) "They want to avoid situations where people are swapping every day, but every week, that's something they want to accommodate."

Again, WHY?! Why is it a problem if people swap conduits every day? You cannot dictate this to be a "meaningful choice" just because you want it to be. Most people pick the strongest spec and the strongest conduits for that spec anyway. That's already not meaningful for us. My transmog is a more meaningful choice to me than my conduits. The only thing these restrictions achieve is stopping people from having fun with off specs.

What they say, the things that they post, is nothing but spin. The simple fact is, being able to swap makes each encounter easier. They don't want this. Blizzard has done this for YEARS. When they limit something, they always tell the player base some bullshit reason when, in fact, they just want limiters in place.

[Hctaz]

It's a weird mentality that retail has now where they're trying to emulate the careful consideration that came with building a character in Classic.

Theres a number of reasons why this just doesn't work in retail. They're trying too hard to please everybody, and it just doesn't work. You have a system in place starting from MoP onwards where you can just swap to any of your available specs on the fly. You can literally hit a few buttons for zero cost, research, or investment and immediately become a PvP spec, a Raid spec, a dungeon spec, a leveling spec... anything you want to be. Suddenly they decided that the game needed to have more meaningful choices like Classic did, but, instead of reverting the systems they built that allow players to be literally anything that they want, they add some new temporary system which tries to restrict you in the same fashion BUT WORSE.

I love Classic WoW. I love the fact that there's a real investment to doing multiple things. You wanna be a raider? Cool, but it's a hefty cost to do raiding and PvP. BUT IT'S A GOLD COST. It's not a time gated activity to swap specs or to buy PvP consumable items. You show up to raid as one spec, and people don't expect you to swap. You might suck on some bosses, but it's planned. Gold in Classic WoW is the resource that allows you to make these changes, but farming gold is a lot better than farming some arbitrary resource.

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Why DO we have to make choice in the first place? Its all cool for story stuff, but not for gameplay.

Because they saw Classic WoW and decided that choice was good (which it can be and is in my opinion in the context of Classic WoW) so they wanted to go back on their game design that's been in place since literally MoP but they also didn't/couldn't so they slapped something else on top of it and called it "meaningful choice"

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I agree that conduit energy is too restrictive, but I stand by the main principle that endless customization is not what I expect or want from an MMORPG. If you don't have to make a sacrifice in order to gain something (ie you can always pick the best choice and never have to "settle"), there shouldn't be a choice in the first place. In that case they could've just given us perks that unlock like the Artifact weapons did instead.

I agree with this. It doesn't make any sense from the context of retail WoW. Trying to emulate the meaningful choices that you see in Classic WoW doesn't work in a game which has tried for years and years to remove all of those exact same choices from the game.

I love Classic. I love the customization options in that version of the game. I'm not happy with the way retail has moved away from those choices, but I absolutely called that Covenants were just a bad idea for this version of the game as soon as they were announced.

You can't take a game which has eliminated all restrictive choices and then decide to add new choices back into the game. It just doesn't work. It can't work unless you go back to some of the older Classic style philosophies which isn't going to happen. The game as a whole is just too integrated. I don't know if Shadowlands has moved away from this, but I know how important doing Mythic + as a raider was in Legion.

[Accendor]

Because they saw Classic WoW and decided that choice was good (which it can be and is in my opinion in the context of Classic WoW) so they wanted to go back on their game design that's been in place since literally MoP but they also didn't/couldn't so they slapped something else on top of it and called it "meaningful choice"

The thing is that the current implementation has nothing to do with Classic at all. Like, its not even remotely similar.

[Hctaz]

The thing is that the current implementation has nothing to do with Classic at all. Like, its not even remotely similar.

No, you're entirely correct in thinking that.

It basically feels like some dude in a suit asked Blizzard why Classic WoW was so popular, got told "meaningful choices" and then dictated that meaningful choice must make a return to retail.

Covenants are basically the equivalent of Classic's "do I want to be a spec'd for raids, dungeons, world farming, or PvP" dilemma except without any of the fun character building elements and more of the chores required to maintain multiple builds.

Once again, I am a HUGE Classic fan, but I saw IMMEDIATELY that Covenants were a bad idea for retail and why. You can't try to emulate Classic WoW in retail. You either need to embrace Classic or embrace retail. Trying to do both won't make Classic players come back, and it won't make retail players anything other than annoyed.

[huth]

I asked what kind of % disparity you find acceptable.

And the answer to that is that you're asking the wrong question. It isn't about disparity, it is about whether they are still viable.

I also defined what i mean by viable. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

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I have no idea what point your trying to make. Are you trying to claim covenants should match class choice?

You asked for another system that locks you into your choice and couldn't find the most obvious one.

[Crimson Spears]

And the answer to that is that you're asking the wrong question. It isn't about disparity, it is about whether they are still viable.

I also defined what i mean by viable. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

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You asked for another system that locks you into your choice and couldn't find the most obvious one.

OOO so you went with the dumbest possible counter point imaginable. I got it now sorry it kinda disarmed me its like talking about your favorite meals then having someone scream tomatoes are fruits.

Now I know you know those are in no way comparable systems so I want to ask a more interesting question. Why bother to even bring up class choice in this conversation?

Are you simply trying to stir the pot are do you somehow believe they are relevant to each other?

[Popokolara]

And the answer to that is that you're asking the wrong question. It isn't about disparity, it is about whether they are still viable.

I also defined what i mean by viable. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

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You asked for another system that locks you into your choice and couldn't find the most obvious one.

Your attempt to obscure the issue and evade criticism by making EXTREMELY blurry and general claims and avoiding answering specific points is neither smart nor reasonable on your part. If you had something of substance you would not hesitate a moment and would easily reply and make a compelling argument. instead you dance around the topic. "cant lose if you never fight, just pretend you know what you are doing".

The one thing you misunderstand is, you are transparent. Your avoidance is plain for all to see, so keep convincing yourself u are so amazing because...you refuse to actually think about what is happening.

Viable: capable of working successfully; feasible.

If you measure success as in can complete then u can afk and get carried and is still "viable".
If you do not consider this enough however, and want to measure the contribution, i refer to my previous post, and where i ask you very specifically if in that scenario you can consider one viable. i repeat so u dont have to scroll up:

What about, i am getting carried, with 3/4 healers like me we couldnt kill the boss, but with 1/4 like me, after many additional wipes the 3 healers would output like mad, mad enough to finish the fight? Would you consider that viable?

no more excuses, no more evasion and sophistry. this is a very simple question. you have no reason to not answer other than to 1. try to annoy me and 2. because you do not want to be held responsible for giving a reply.

[huth]

Why bother to even bring up class choice in this conversation?

Because the concept is the same. It's a choice you make that you get locked into and that has impact on your gameplay, cosmetic and story options.

If you can't understand why they are relevant to one another, then you haven't even understood the basics of this discussion.

no more excuses, no more evasion and sophistry. this is a very simple question. you have no reason to not answer other than to 1. try to annoy me and 2. because you do not want to be held responsible for giving a reply.

I could turn your entire post back at you. I answered you. You keep refusing to accept it and make up excuses as to why i owe you something, while only bringing up anecdotes and muddying the waters. If i am transparent, you're barely even visible.

[Lurker1]

I do't find raids or dungeons meaningful but to reach there own i guess.

[Tradu]

If you can swap whenever you want, as many times as you want, what's the point in having to make a choice in the first place?

The point would be the knowledge/depth of being able to change your setup to fit the situation you're facing. Alternatively they could just stop having a bunch of different extra talent trees every expansion, instead of putting dumb restrictions on them.

Just legendaries alone would've been plenty of borrowed power. Maybe swap some of the lame legendary powers for some of the few interesting conduits that have been freed up by not having conduits in the game. The meaningful choice for legendaries is which ones to craft, which order to craft them in. That's a much better meaningful choice, because eventually (at least in theory, not with current or 9.1 legendary acquisition rates) you'll be able to unlock the ability to freely swap specs. Covenants and conduit energy mean that we'll never be able to do so in SL.

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Because the concept is the same. It's a choice you make that you get locked into and that has impact on your gameplay, cosmetic and story options.

If you can't understand why they are relevant to one another, then you haven't even understood the basics of this discussion.



I could turn your entire post back at you. I answered you. You keep refusing to accept it and make up excuses as to why i owe you something, while only bringing up anecdotes and muddying the waters. If i am transparent, you're barely even visible.

The concept is the same, yes. The difference is that it's an additional "permanent" choice made on top of class choice. It's limiting yourself even further, including limiting which specs you can play in what content.

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It's a weird mentality that retail has now where they're trying to emulate the careful consideration that came with building a character in Classic.

Theres a number of reasons why this just doesn't work in retail. They're trying too hard to please everybody, and it just doesn't work. You have a system in place starting from MoP onwards where you can just swap to any of your available specs on the fly. You can literally hit a few buttons for zero cost, research, or investment and immediately become a PvP spec, a Raid spec, a dungeon spec, a leveling spec... anything you want to be. Suddenly they decided that the game needed to have more meaningful choices like Classic did, but, instead of reverting the systems they built that allow players to be literally anything that they want, they add some new temporary system which tries to restrict you in the same fashion BUT WORSE.

I love Classic WoW. I love the fact that there's a real investment to doing multiple things. You wanna be a raider? Cool, but it's a hefty cost to do raiding and PvP. BUT IT'S A GOLD COST. It's not a time gated activity to swap specs or to buy PvP consumable items. You show up to raid as one spec, and people don't expect you to swap. You might suck on some bosses, but it's planned. Gold in Classic WoW is the resource that allows you to make these changes, but farming gold is a lot better than farming some arbitrary resource.

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Because they saw Classic WoW and decided that choice was good (which it can be and is in my opinion in the context of Classic WoW) so they wanted to go back on their game design that's been in place since literally MoP but they also didn't/couldn't so they slapped something else on top of it and called it "meaningful choice"

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I agree with this. It doesn't make any sense from the context of retail WoW. Trying to emulate the meaningful choices that you see in Classic WoW doesn't work in a game which has tried for years and years to remove all of those exact same choices from the game.

I love Classic. I love the customization options in that version of the game. I'm not happy with the way retail has moved away from those choices, but I absolutely called that Covenants were just a bad idea for this version of the game as soon as they were announced.

You can't take a game which has eliminated all restrictive choices and then decide to add new choices back into the game. It just doesn't work. It can't work unless you go back to some of the older Classic style philosophies which isn't going to happen. The game as a whole is just too integrated. I don't know if Shadowlands has moved away from this, but I know how important doing Mythic + as a raider was in Legion.

To be fair, it's not the only stupid thing they took from Classic and decided would be great for the modern game too. Just look at all the quests where the items on the floor aren't unique per player (like they have been since... MoP? Cata maybe?), instead forcing people to wait for respawns for minutes each. They can't accept that the 2 games have different playerbases, different appeals and that things that work in one don't necessarily work in the other.

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No, you're entirely correct in thinking that.

It basically feels like some dude in a suit asked Blizzard why Classic WoW was so popular, got told "meaningful choices" and then dictated that meaningful choice must make a return to retail.

Covenants are basically the equivalent of Classic's "do I want to be a spec'd for raids, dungeons, world farming, or PvP" dilemma except without any of the fun character building elements and more of the chores required to maintain multiple builds.

Once again, I am a HUGE Classic fan, but I saw IMMEDIATELY that Covenants were a bad idea for retail and why. You can't try to emulate Classic WoW in retail. You either need to embrace Classic or embrace retail. Trying to do both won't make Classic players come back, and it won't make retail players anything other than annoyed.

And without the possibility to ever reach a point (whether that's gear, gold for constant respecs or whatever) where you can freely switch between specs/content.

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And the answer to that is that you're asking the wrong question. It isn't about disparity, it is about whether they are still viable.

I also defined what i mean by viable. Your lack of reading comprehension isn't my problem.

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You asked for another system that locks you into your choice and couldn't find the most obvious one.

Viable is a completely useless and pointless term. Every spec in the game is "viable", because you can clear all content in the game as any spec. Nobody gives a shit, that's not what actually matters. There's a reason people optimize their character, their raid comp etc. Because the goal is to be the best, not just "good enough".

[Popokolara]

Because the concept is the same. It's a choice you make that you get locked into and that has impact on your gameplay, cosmetic and story options.

If you can't understand why they are relevant to one another, then you haven't even understood the basics of this discussion.



I could turn your entire post back at you. I answered you. You keep refusing to accept it and make up excuses as to why i owe you something, while only bringing up anecdotes and muddying the waters. If i am transparent, you're barely even visible.

nop. failed again. you are refusing to answer, because you cant. fine stay in the mud of arguing by not saying anything.

[huth]

Viable is a completely useless and pointless term. Every spec in the game is "viable", because you can clear all content in the game as any spec. Nobody gives a shit, that's not what actually matters. There's a reason people optimize their character, their raid comp etc. Because the goal is to be the best, not just "good enough".

The vast majority does not optimise their characters. They mindlessly follow a guide without actually understanding any of the concepts. They will never be the best because that would require actually understanding their character. They also tend to horribly fail to even reach good enough even with the perfect spec because the players themselves are nowhere near good enough.

Half of the people playing the game could probably leave their talents unassigned without it significantly impacting their performance.