Curiosity on a certain trend with elven lore

[Tanaria]

Druids nearly caused the destruction of the entire world 5 minutes after that, yet they happily continue to use their nature magic.

It's alright when night elf druids do bad things. Nobody needs to talk about that.
Siding with Deathwing, by extension, therefore the Old Gods...that's fine.

[Imperator4321]

It's alright when night elf druids do bad things. Nobody needs to talk about that.
Siding with Deathwing, by extension, therefore the Old Gods...that's fine.

I'm assuming your talking about Fandral Staghelm, he was corrupted by Xavius and the Emerald Nightmare and had his mind broken pre-catacysm, then had his mind "restored" by the Twilight Hammer and became Ragnaros' majordomo, its debatable how much of his actions were done in a right state of mind (he was still kind of a dick before getting corrupted™).

Compared to someone like Azshara or a number of Highborne who went 100% on siding with the Legion out of a desire for power/infatuation with Azshara, the Night Elf Resistance also didn't need much excuse to exile the Highborne anyway given they weren't exactly fond of them before the War of the Ancients.

Theres also the retcon element, before in the lore Arcane magic was inherently corruptive and addicting, requiring great care to use or else it basically acted as a gateway drug to Fel and Necromancy, it also attracted demons. So Retcons to the way Arcane magic relates to Fel and Necromancy does retcoactively make the Night Elves case for exiling the Highborne a lot worse.

[geco]

Elf lore exists because white supremacists are paying customers too.

Infracted.

Be careful this Post includes scientific theories and hatred towards a certain pj.

It's fun. Because the original color of humans is black, it is the "purest race" and white is a mutation or hybridization.

While the true color of the elves the "purest race" are the Kaldorei and all those who call themselves "high elves" and the like are truly weakened and mutated races.

So the "black elves" are indeed the Kaldorei. But since they are "cute" no one people associate them with "whites". When in truth the elf lore would be more "black supremecy" with White shitting it over and over again.

PS: If we add this to Anduin as a blond white man with blue eyes. Imposing what would be in itself a black woman who has just been the victim of a tragedy that must forgive the Orcs because they basically made a genocide in their race and ruined their lands.
I guess you understand more why I see Anduin as the manifestation of true Toxic Machismo.

It is literal the "my moral is superior because I am the chosen one of the gods / writers".

[Aucald]

Let's pivot away from discussing real-world race or identity politics and focus instead on the original topic concerning the fantasy races of Elves in WoW.

[Rhlor]

Sorry if I'm going onto an overly touchy subject on the board but I've always been confused by the sometimes extreme possessiveness I see from elf players for elven lore before the exile.

On one side, some of the most aggro nelf fans seem to be completely adamant that since nelf mages were retconned in Cata (and it's hard not to feel like it was a retcon when the Edre'thalas Quel'dorei were basically chugging as much demon blood as the sunfury before Cata), this means any claim to the highborne falls on them, despite multiple elements of thalassian culture keeping that memory alive too, which wouldn't be hard to do when just one king of Quel'thalas ruled the country for nearly half of its entire history as a political entity, and the highborne who rebelled against Azshara included its first king.

On the other side, some of the most aggro belf fans will simply claim that the night elves have no right whatsoever to highborn heritage because of the exile, even though afaik the lore seems to have strongly implied that highborne weren't that hereditary at first (Illidan was after all the brother of the first elven druid and seemed mostly on the highborne/arcane side), and I realize some of that largely came about because of one bit of story writing that I realize is a bit touchy with the devs needing to shove everyone into factions.

In all that I just find myself asking myself: is there a point to be at each other's throats other than the bliz writers deciding that they have to write stupid shit everytime they realize they wrote themselves into too much of a corner by making the various elven nations too friendly across even faction lines (case in point Suramar, which early on struck me more as ribbing than anything else, and maybe I liked the idea that maybe it was the kirin tor humans who were irrationally afraid that things would blow up, or Trueshot Lodge starting out as basically an elven story, or heck TFT showing little sign of active hatred; the way Wrath introduced the SC always bugged me even though I like Vereesa as a character with flaws, without her codependent relationship to a writer self-insert)

Are sin'dorei, quel'dorei, ren'dorei and shal'dorei really threatened by acknowledging highborne elements that slithered their way back into the kal'dorei?
Are kal'dorei really threatened by the various highborne nations and factions not being reduced to portal bots for their respective factions or an excuse to use one of the most battered races on Azeroth to tell low effort civil war stories and having, like, their pre-exile history acknowledged?

Can we not all unite in the ultimate truth, which is that elves are good and Aethas Sunreaver is an idiot?

Different elven nations have their own unique characteristics and similarities. but those who undoubtedly keep the legacy of the highborne most alive are the shaldorei

[geco]

Something really weird is that there are 5 types of highborns.
But only one type of LowBorns?
How is it that the Plebs that were supposed to be Majority divided less than a small handful of nobles? But being that the Plebe seems that it was in so many different parts.

I mean, the elves mutate so much. The Wardens at least should already be their own race.

[Houle]

Trolls have always fought other trolls. It’s in their nature.

The MMOC story.

never before have i been so offended by something i 100% agree with

[mysticx]

Dorei actually means children. So you named yourself children of the children or children-children. Nothing to do with elves other than being Darnassian.

So he named himself "Grandchildren"?

[huth]

So he named himself "Grandchildren"?

That's one way of interpreting it at least. Could also mean childish child or something. Either way, it certainly doesn't mean "elf".

[BrintoSFJ]

From vanilla to cata, we had gone through multiple Titan facilities and we found out that Titans, who literally shaped the various races of Azeroth, did it through Arcane magic. Knowing all of that, if Night Elves still kept their tomfoolery regarding Arcane magic, they would be total dumbasses. It is a logical conclusion that they would realize the folly of their prejudice and again begin to practice Arcane magic.

[Koryn123]

Aethas isn't an idiot because of his keeping quiet during the Purge of Dalaran, he's an idiot because he licks the Kirin Tor's boots at every opportunity. Case in point: he hocked a priceless national treasure royal family heirloom of wondrous, eternal Quel'thalas, Felo'melorn, the sword of Prince Kael'thas and every Thalassian king before him, to the almighty 30-year old human magi of Dalaran, just to be allowed to live there again, and even then, two of the members of the Council said no. He didn't even do it for his Council seat back. He just wanted to live in Dalaran again. The little dillweed may as well shave his eyebrows and cut his ears off if he wants to be human so badly. If he doesn't do it voluntarily, Rommath should have him strung up and made an example of by doing it for him. Aethas is to humans what weeaboos are to the Japanese. What a disgrace.

Imagine if Edwin Vancleef, done so dirty by the Stormwind House of Nobles, decided to sell out all his brothers in the Defias, just to be allowed to live in Stormwind again, not even as an influential stonemason. It's the same thing.

We need more opportunities for non-humans and non-orcs to be proud of what they are, who they are, and where they're from. WoW needs more nationalism, and if that eventually leads to more polarization and eventual conflict between the various nations, then GOOD. It's World of WARcraft! Let the players decide who to root for in each nation's mission to provide for their own people's needs! I'd much rather fight a war in WoW over practical matters like resources or territorial expansion than "hurr durr u guys got manipulated by da real big bad of da xpanshun, now werk together and save da wurld :P"

Keep in mind that I don't mean Horde/Alliance nationalism. I mean Quel'thalas, Stormwind, Khaz Modan, Forsaken Lordaeron, etc. Let them compete for rapid expansion across the less-habited, wild regions of the world, cooperating with fellow faction members only when they have common specific goals.

[ravenmoon]

It's alright when night elf druids do bad things. Nobody needs to talk about that.
Siding with Deathwing, by extension, therefore the Old Gods...that's fine.

It's not alright, but the story is told from the perspective of each group often enough, and sometimes the other group's side is shown


in the context of their universe, the arcane isn't bad, so certain kaldorei blaming their magic for all the problems is obviously because of trauma, not because of fact.

but I'm not even sure that's what they did, they banned the arcane to prevent the legion returning, the legion returning is what was bad, and if the life enhancing ordering magic brings the legion, then using it is bad.

When that ceases to be the case, then it no longer has the that status. This was true after WC3, however addiction was still a problem, and that was dealt with once and for all in elves during legion - where the writers felt it fitting that the arcane addiction they spoke about in WotA is actually due to an imbalance between arcane and nature, and restoring htat balance solves that little problem.

[Tharivor]

Under the older lore the Night Elves were essentially correct- arcane magic was inherently dangerous and its use by humans (who were taught ofc by the High Elves) did exactly what the Night Elves feared and brought the Legion back to Azeroth. The whole Blood Elf set-up in BC was basically the fulfilment of all their warnings, and even Illidan endangered the world as many times as he had saved it.
The distinctiveness of the different elf races made sense since there were legitimate perspectives on all sides and no one seemed stupid- if you wanted to be edgy you went one way, if you wanted to have the moral high ground you went the other.

As WoW has progressed however this position was rendered increasingly unsustainable: The Blood Elves' redemption failed to address the underlying issue of their mana-dependence, which was apparently no problem now. With the arrival of Dalaran, human magic went from something fraught with risk to a guilt-free power trip with no consequences. Cataclysm brought back Night Elf mages with zero negative consequences, plus a healthy dose of humble pie for all the traditional Night Elf druids and sentinels who were now apparently helpless against the Horde. This cumulated in Legion ofc where even Fel and Void Magics are apparently a-ok and perfectly moral and the very Night Elf who saved the world not only rejected all of their social taboos but did so apparently while retaining the entirely of the moral high ground.
Night Elf history started to look a lot more like a series of blunders than a rational response to events, since apparently everyone else was dabbling with the darkest powers of the universe without any consequences.

To sum it up basically a realistic society with taboos and a distinct culture is going to start to seem lacking in a world increasingly defined by wish-fulfilment, power-creep, and a comic-book system of morality where "everything is great as long as you have good intentions". The desire of some Night Elf fans to abandon their prior characterisation is I think simply a reflection of this fact- they want the same bland high-on-graphics-low-on-lore shinies that many other races have been given. I'm against us getting it because it just dilutes what little remains of the lore even further, but I think I can understand the sentiment behind it.

[geco]

...

In truth of the 4 times that legion 4 comes, it is the fault of Magic and magic alone would not have won.
Of the 4 times that legion 2 comes, the Druidimos beat them and another and the second BC we stopped before.
Only for the last time the arcanum and all the other forces beat the Legion.

I mean a factor of 3/4 of being right is still pretty sustainable.

They only took away part of the addiction factor.

Edit

I correct myself. she came 5 times. The second the Arcanum solved the problem. But he solved it so badly that he caused the 3rd, 4th and 5th time it came.

[saintminya]

I believe the Night elves were wrong to forsake the arcane for fear of the Legion, when the Legion was going to come back at some point no matter what the denizens of Azeroth did. They would have been better off honing their abilities and preparing for the eventuality of war instead of hiding like cowards. When the Legion finally did return, it had nothing to do with anyone practicing the arcane anyway, but rather the Draenei landing there with targets on their backs.

[geco]

I believe the Night elves were wrong to forsake the arcane for fear of the Legion, when the Legion was going to come back at some point no matter what the denizens of Azeroth did. They would have been better off honing their abilities and preparing for the eventuality of war instead of hiding like cowards. When the Legion finally did return, it had nothing to do with anyone practicing the arcane anyway, but rather the Draenei landing there with targets on their backs.

I emphasize.
2. Before W3 they come back for the magicians in Frotznort (I'm not quite sure how)
3. W3 happens that a certain wizard is corrupted by sargeras.
4. Then in BC Illidan I will open a portal for them.
5. And then in legion they arrive because a Sorcerer will open a portal for them, taking advantage of what a certain corrupt mage left in the tomb of Sargeras.

So at least 4 out of 5 times if it was because of some kind of magician and if there was no magician it would not have happened. And I'm sure 5 too, but I don't remember.

The Dranei never brought the legion to Azeroth.


Edit:
We can argue that just hiding and not preparing is a cowardly action and I agree.
But not giving magic room was clearly a good move.

[Tanaria]

It's not alright, but the story is told from the perspective of each group often enough, and sometimes the other group's side is shown


in the context of their universe, the arcane isn't bad, so certain kaldorei blaming their magic for all the problems is obviously because of trauma, not because of fact.

but I'm not even sure that's what they did, they banned the arcane to prevent the legion returning, the legion returning is what was bad, and if the life enhancing ordering magic brings the legion, then using it is bad.

When that ceases to be the case, then it no longer has the that status. This was true after WC3, however addiction was still a problem, and that was dealt with once and for all in elves during legion - where the writers felt it fitting that the arcane addiction they spoke about in WotA is actually due to an imbalance between arcane and nature, and restoring htat balance solves that little problem.

But we're not talking about the arcane or anything akin to that...we're talking about times when former alliance night elves, willingly do bad things, like those Druids of the Flame. People don't want to talk about it.
"Oh well, Xavius corrupted Fandral."
Ok then - well, last I checked, Xavius didn't corrupt Leyara. She willingly joined Fandral and joined the cult.

People love to boast about how the bad things Blood Elves did during TBC...becoming a Warlock is not a bad thing. Stormwind and Ironforge accept Human and Gnome Warlocks. The only evil Blood Elves were the Sunfury Blood Elves, who eventually became the Sunblade/Dawnblade/Shadowsword Elves.
Also to note - these very Blood Elves were the ones who attacked their own kind in Silvermoon.

[geco]

But we're not talking about the arcane or anything akin to that...we're talking about times when former alliance night elves, willingly do bad things, like those Druids of the Flame. People don't want to talk about it.
"Oh well, Xavius corrupted Fandral."
Ok then - well, last I checked, Xavius didn't corrupt Leyara. She willingly joined Fandral and joined the cult.

You mean fucking Malfurion because he doesn't care about his race and he's arrogant who doesn't care about others?
If it was spoken of that or that much they agreed with the druids of the flame to despise Malfurion.

what really happens is the following.
Someone: the Kaldorei are racist.
Kaldorei: We don't just hate wizards.
Someone: A but the Magi are not dangerous they did not bring the fiery legion.
Kaldorei: Not really, magicians almost always trembled it.

OR B:
Someone: The Kaldorei are evil, they brought the Burning Legion.
Kaldorei: Not really were the highborns who would be better the Belfos and Eternal Night.


In other words, it is not that they do not talk about the shit that the Kaldoeri make if some even say that the Kaldorei Children deserve to be burned alive. The issue is that the Belfos, Kaldorei conflict is much more interesting because you know they are the two most played races.

[Doreidorei]

It's a dumb argument but pretty much every claim that one side of currently alive elves or their direct ancestors was involved in the legion thing is dumb either way. The ones who did it and their descendants are all satyrs and nagas at this point, even the people of Suramar rebelled even if they chickened out during the WotA. Both sides found a way to deal with it, and in the end it took until the humans learned magic nearly 5000 years post-exile for another serious fuckup to happen. Did the quel'dorei teach them? Sure. Did the quel'dorei warn them and suggest maybe humans shouldn't use magic after all before they decided something as dumb as the council of Tirisfal would work instead? Also yes.

Also per current lore Sargeras would have found it anyway even without people in Azshara's inner circle like Xavius deciding to summon him directly for fun, but current lore is a mess.

[Super Dickmann]

Good content

Not much to add, just wanted to give you kudos for a great post that encapsulated a lot I was having trouble formulating too. The 'movement' to bring arcane back into focus on the Night elves is symptomatic of how much every society and culture depicted in the game has been watered down into cosmetically different but value-wise identical blobs.