Yeah, I'm just stating this to make a point about how little these "First Ones" matter to the actual stories and characters we care about. The exploration of these "cosmic entities" is just fundamentally uninteresting especially when they're not really tied to any existing stories. It's just supposed to be fluff/background noise (and we already had established stories taking up the same space). I mean, they can always just tell us later on that event X was actually orchestrated by the First Ones all along (like they did with the Jailer, Denathrius etc.) but I think this will only end up making people care less about Warcraft's lore in the long run.
The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?
Show what, bad things happening? Yeah all the time in the Novels
There was a q&a released 2 hours ago with dan abnett where he explains why 40k is the single worst setting to visit or to be alive in or one of the absolute worst.
That was one of the questions he answered atleast and he's regarded as one of the top authors of Warhammer and helped with the script for guardians of the galaxy movies, alien isolation to name some recent stuff he also wrote a shit ton of marvel and dc stuff but mostly Warhammer.
Even the term grimdark comes from 40k as in the tagline of the setting.
In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.
Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2021-05-05 at 06:09 PM.
Do you hear the voices too?
And would you look at that. It is by far the most popular storyline done by Blizzard. It was also released 20 years ago. You can maybe argue that the campaigns following Arthas are dark fantasy, but not WC3 as a whole, and definitely not WarCraft as a whole.
Funnily enough in the WoW era the closest we get to dark fantasy is a continent where you aren't allowed to feel strong emotions because even doubting yourself enough can give birth to giant monsters that kill all your friends and we can see pretty lasting effects of war on the people and the landscape. Yep, Pandaria.
It's absolutely not "dark".
It's high/epic/bombastic fantasy. "Dark fantasy" would be the Soulsborne serie.
In the books? Yes. The wiki is also an excellent source of lore, summating elements from the books and official handbooks.
Just an example of how severely fucked up it is: https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Daemonculaba
The universe is ripe for a very dark and fucked up TV series.
Last edited by willtron; 2021-05-05 at 06:12 PM.
1) Load the amount of weight I would deadlift onto the bench
2) Unrack
3) Crank out 15 reps
4) Be ashamed of constantly skipping leg day
No, it is not Dark Fantasy. Not even close.
While some aspects verge on dark fantasy (Worgen and Forsaken storylines) ... it doesn't quite cross into that genre.
Dark Fantasy has two definitions that are not mutually exclusive. Some say it is fantasy with a Horror element, while other just say in is a Dark storylines. WoW doesn't really fit either aspect imo.
Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
–The Sith Code
Have you never played WoW? The game is full of poop quests. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Poop_questCan't wait to fight them.
It's an incredible loss of depth and flavour, that WoW lost these darker tones thorught the expansions. People try to point out how wow might still be dark in theme, but the way that just a few nameless heroes (us players) are still able to defeat the greatest threats in the universe in little over a year is just sad, vs the state of the universal threat of the legion back in TBC.
All mayor threats since basically cataclysm became single-expansion level issues, rather than real world-ending threats: Oh shit, deathwing broke out and is uber angry, "No worries, with green jebus powers and the true names heroes, he'll be dead in 2 years" rinse and repeat every xpac.
And for those in the know, this same exact thing is also happening in 40k lore: Major new lore characters pop up with incredible powers/abilities that immediately solve millennia old problems in a matter of years and sudden new power ups to certain factions are destroying the grimdark setting, next to the fact that the whole concept of no good-evil dynamic is being worked away, with humanity becoming the good guys for no reason.
To me, it seems that these franchises are being softened, white-washed and generalized, just to increase mainstream appeal and monetary profits. This results in the loss of what makes these fictional universes actually unique and interesting, I hate these companies just make everything bland to transform it into another piece of throwaway media. Fuck that.
'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn
'A Man choses, a Slave obeys.' -Andrew Rayn
Hm, it is definitely in the bad game category but dark fantasy? I'm honestly not sure.
In the meantime GW is doing it's damn best to whitewash the 40k setting. Since moving to 8th, characters like guilliman and cawl and the primaris shit just undermined everything that made 40k unique as a setting. Making mankind into the good guys in general is just bad writing.
The only good thing is that some books are still kind of grimdark and that the horus heresy exists. I've since switched to 30k almost completely.
'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn
'A Man choses, a Slave obeys.' -Andrew Rayn
Back in the rts era of Warcraft 1 and 2, there was some question of whether Azeroth would survive or not. Orcs came in and laid waste to human, dwarven, and elven territory and almost pushed them to the brink, even killing off the hero Lothar in the process. That sense of impending "can we win?" and "will there be anything after?" are what makes a story dark. Uncertainty, loss, tragedy, etc.
I haven't felt that way about Warcraft since 2. I saw the ending of WC3 coming when I realized I'd be playing through each race of the campaign. Everyone unites last minute to save the world...and we've basically been on that story treadmill ever since. No villain has ever felt threatening since then, nor will they ever again. Even when they manage a "victory" it feels like there is no weight behind it. You can tell me all day long about how burning Teldrassil was devastating to the night elves, but I still see a million bimbo smirking purple treehuggers flipping around town like nothing ever happened. Then they throw in "well most everyone escaped" tidbits, followed by their forces retaking darkshore, and it just...doesn't feel like it happened at all.
Same with Undercity. Nuked by plague, leader gone rogue, how do we handle the fact that the leader we worshipped just abandoned us? How do we reconcile our tormented existence with a world that despises and hates us, or come to grips with our darker, twisted tendencies? Well...very easily. Everyone just accepts walking corpses now, they are apparently no longer morally corrupt, and leaders like Calia are here to give hugs and make them feel better about themselves. Not only was their conflict made pointless, it actually just kind of ended all of the Forsaken story arc in one fell swoop.
Every villain comes in with evil plan. Every villain fails to account for the heroes of Azeroth, every villain fails. There are no stakes when victory is guaranteed, and when there is no focus on loss and conflict, it is without a doubt not in the slightest bit "dark" fantasy.
It's more along the lines of high fantasy D&D meets Marvel comics or Power Rangers. That's my opinion, anyway.
Pretty much agree with everything you said. In regards to 40k it's particularly tragic. I went from huge 40k fan who read almost every novel to "don't care" within a few years. They've fucked things up big time.
At this point, I don't even want to engage with these fictional settings because all it takes is one guy in a suit making a decision to ruin pretty much all of it. Nothing is safe or sacred. Everything is for sale.
The absolute state of Warcraft lore in 2021:
Kyrians: We need to keep chucking people into the Maw because it's our job.
Also Kyrians: Why is the Maw growing stronger despite all our efforts?
Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief
that's why I moved over to the horus heresy setting, It still retains the grimdark setting (even with all the primarchs there) and the tragedy of the entire setting just makes it neigh impossible to whitewash. It's a bit tragic that we lost Alan Bligh, but it seems as if forgeworld is gearing up on a good few updates to HH again.
'Something's awry.' -Duhgan 'Bel' beltayn
'A Man choses, a Slave obeys.' -Andrew Rayn