9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[Crimson Spears]

You've honestly got me thinking now - did the Trial of the Grand Crusader (heroic clear with no wipes) reward a higher ilvl or not? It has been that long that I actually cannot remember!

It did not reward better gear but it rewarded extra loot. You got one extra piece for each achievement you got from the last chest.. I think it was 3 plus for deathless, 2 for less then 5 and one for less then 10?

I forget the exact numbers but i know it worked like that.

[Ragedaug]

This crowd never really wanted gear. They wanted access and so long as people don't want to burn a key in the first minute and a half of run they will forever be denied that.

They already have access to the dungeons, so that's not the reason. You think they want access just to play alongside you? I wouldn't think that is thier main goal. They want "access" to higher level gear. The gear is precisely why they want in your group. If they could get gear without having to group with people who would condescend to them and complain how bad they are, they would take that in a heartbeat.

If you make the only option to get the best gear to do stuff where they have to group with you, you can't be surprised that they are trying to get into your group.

[Crimson Spears]

They already have access to the dungeons, so that's not the reason. You think they want access just to play alongside you? I wouldn't think that is thier main goal. They want "access" to higher level gear. The gear is precisely why they want in your group. If they could get gear without having to group with people who would condescend to them and complain how bad they are, they would take that in a heartbeat.

If you make the only option to get the best gear to do stuff where they have to group with you, you can't be surprised that they are trying to get into your group.

I can't really put myself in their shoes to be honest... what is the point to playing the game if all you want is your numbers to go up? Surely there are better single player games that accomplish this?

I barely register having gear once I hit 210 and am back in mythic raiding on an alt. Gear is just something that I passively get doing the content I enjoy. It is an after thought at best. The last time gear really,really mattered to me was in MoP when I was raiding with invictus as the world 7th ten man guild and it only mattered then because after clearing six mythic bosses on the first week it opened we hit a hard enrage doing nearly our simmed dmg.

[Ragedaug]

I can't really put myself in their shoes to be honest... what is the point to playing the game if all you want is your numbers to go up? Surely there are better single player games that accomplish this?

I barely register having gear once I hit 210 and am back in mythic raiding on an alt. Gear is just something that I passively get doing the content I enjoy. It is an after thought at best. The last time gear really,really mattered to me was in MoP when I was raiding with invictus as the world 7th ten man guild and it only mattered then because after clearing six mythic bosses on the first week it opened we hit a hard enrage doing nearly our simmed dmg.

What's the point to doing anything in a game? Why can't we just not judge differing opinions and reasons and let folks enjoy logging on so long as it doesn't diminish the fun of others?

The reason I enjoy gear upgrades is because I feel my character is progressing and I'm able to do things better than when I have lesser gear. There's no sinister motivation behind it. I just like my character to feel stronger, that's all.

[Crimson Spears]

What's the point to doing anything in a game? Why can't we just not judge differing opinions and reasons and let folks enjoy logging on so long as it doesn't diminish the fun of others?

The reason I enjoy gear upgrades is because I feel my character is progressing and I'm able to do things better than when I have lesser gear. There's no sinister motivation behind it. I just like my character to feel stronger, that's all.

I think the problem comes from how wanting free gear diminishes the enjoyment of most of the playerbase. It isn't a harmless desire. Every time the free ilv goes up the minimum standard to get started in harder content goes up with it. Why do you think raider io became so popular that blizzard implemented it into the game? No one trusts gear as it stands currently.

You simply create a group of players who have very high ilv but skills so low and unpolished they can never earn a reward that will be an upgrade to them from content.

[Crimson Spears]

That's the thing, you don't get to decide what's fun for other people. So maybe you can't understand it but accept it ... other people have different desires and priorities than you. And they are under no obligation to explain their desires and priorities to you or anyone else.

Like Ragedaug said, people like me couldn't care less about "access" to raids or m+ or any of that. If I wanted to do those things I'd find a way to do them. What I want is a way to progress my character in an RPG doing the things I enjoy doing ... just like every time I've ever played PnP RPG's like D&D.

I never really get this argument ... I can't say what is and isn't fun but those who want to actively shatter the games progression system are allowed to...why?

I never really understand why coming to a decade old game late somehow gives people a pillaged perspective on how to demand the rules be changed to benefit them.

[Osmeric]

Casuals want gear because gear rewards are the signal from the game that you don't suck.

A central design goal of SL is to keep the casuals in their place, to ensure they understand that they do mostly suck (compared to the top players).

Not surprisingly to anyone who isn't Ion, this hasn't gone over very well.

[SoulSoBreezy]

@Crimson Spears may want to correct me here, so please do if im wrong, but I read it as they constantly want what they feel they cant have - they constantly fall for the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" logic. They ask for A, but when given A, they say "well now I want B.

Some are convinced the only reason they are not multi glad mythic raid legends (hyperbole, obviously) is because they just cant get any groups, because the community keeps "blocking" them from progressing. But if they just had some better gear, they would be stomping everyone in bgs.

The truth is, as CS mentioned, the bar will constantly be raised above the head of those not willing to participate in the content in the first place, and that is not unreasonable at all. An example being Benthic gear - I know many groups would intentionally filter out players with no Rio and no achievements or whatever, because simply looking at ilvl was no longer reliable.

Looking at how this thing works and how it's paced, maw touched gear's long term target audience is towards people that do. not. group. period. Using this as a bullet point for pug discourse doesn't seem effective in the slightest.

[Crimson Spears]

fwiw I've been playing since Beta so this is no "coming to a decade old game late".

And you can totally say what is and isn't fun ... for you! But not for anyone else.

And there is a long history in WoW of ways for casual progression to award quite good gear, including the best gear in the game at the time (legendary cloak in MoP), so I hardly imagine doing it again (as Blizzard are now doing) will "shatter the games progression system". You can simply ignore maw-touched gear, it will have no effect on you or anything else at all if someone gets one near-Heroic piece of gear after weeks or a month or who knows what of working at it. While they are slowly upgrading their meager items you will have the full glory of m+ and raid gear showering upon you week after week.

eta Thinking about it further your real problem is empathy. You can't seem to understand the fact that other people are not carbon-copies of yourself. It's a problem endemic to pretty much all the people that whine about others getting things in different ways than themselves, whether it be in-game or real life.

The fact you have to start at mop and with the legendary cloak really shows how weak your argument is... im not the one arguing for change you somehow have reversed our positions on the topic.

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Looking at how this thing works and how it's paced, maw touched gear's long term target audience is towards people that do. not. group. period. Using this as a bullet point for pug discourse doesn't seem effective in the slightest.

You need to realize at some point wow isn't a single player game. Every system has knock on effects.

[Ragedaug]

I think the problem comes from how wanting free gear diminishes the enjoyment of most of the playerbase. It isn't a harmless desire. Every time the free ilv goes up the minimum standard to get started in harder content goes up with it. Why do you think raider io became so popular that blizzard implemented it into the game? No one trusts gear as it stands currently.

You simply create a group of players who have very high ilv but skills so low and unpolished they can never earn a reward that will be an upgrade to them from content.

I agree free gear is bad, so I take it you agree with everything else I said. Was there anyone suggesting Blizzard should just give out all the gear without playing or doing anything in game? I haven't seen that argument, but rest assured, if I do, I'm on your side.

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You need to realize at some point wow isn't a single player game. Every system has knock on effects.

I would counter that by saying that you also need to realize that at some point, to some people, it is. I have several real life friends and colleagues who never group. They play WoW as a single player game. I suspect there's enough of them that Blizzard realizes they need content /progression too.

[Crimson Spears]

I agree free gear is bad, so I take it you agree with everything else I said. Was there anyone suggesting Blizzard should just give out all the gear without playing or doing anything in game? I haven't seen that argument, but rest assured, if I do, I'm on your side.

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I would counter that by saying that you also need to realize that at some point, to some people, it is. I have several real life friends and colleagues who never group. They play WoW as a single player game. I suspect there's enough of them that Blizzard realizes they need content /progression too.

The simple truth is that they shouldn't progress. Every progression system proposed is a skill less grind that would do nothing but inflate ilv. I don't believe blizzard has the talent to make interesting single player progression and given the complaints about mage tower when it was current I doubt these players honestly want to progress.

[ReesePieces]

The simple truth is that they shouldn't progress. Every progression system proposed is a skill less grind that would do nothing but inflate ilv.

Why even let players level from 1 to 60? It's just a skill-less grind that inflates character level, right?

[Crimson Spears]

Why even let players level from 1 to 60? It's just a skill-less grind that inflates character level, right?

To do end game dungeons and raids that have always been wow's bread and butter...

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I didn't "start at mop", I only presented that as an example of casual play awarding the absolute best gear in the game. You can go as far back as TBC to find casual play awarding gear near the best available at the time.

You seem to have a real problem with understanding other people, both in their desires that are different than yours and in their comments that don't agree with you. I get that you somehow think letting people get good gear without doing raids is going to wreck the game because reasons, but you provide no evidence other than your assertion that such will occur while the actual evidence that exists shows that it doesn't. At worst, it "forces" raiders to do content they don't like to do. But people have no problem with "forcing" casuals to do content they don't want to do for gear so I find that argument disingenuous.



WoW has always been many different types of games for a wide variety of players, including single player. Being able to play solo was one of the main draws at the time WoW launched, it's what set it apart from other MMOs.

You essentially keep insisting that your way of playing is the only correct way of playing and that allowing anything else will damage that. This is both not borne out by evidence and pure selfishness at worst.

First pointing to a item that takes months of play time as a casual item is already a fallacy it isn't something that can be obtained in a casual manner...

I provide concise examples with references to the past...

[ReesePieces]

To do end game dungeons and raids that have always been wow's bread and butter...

But you can have the endgame start immediately at level 1. Why have the skill-less grind to inflate the character level to 60?

[SoulSoBreezy]

You need to realize at some point wow isn't a single player game. Every system has knock on effects.

You mean it's not ONLY a single player game. It's also not ONLY anything else. I'm bouncing off this thread but the takeaway is that you're way overthinking this yo

[Crimson Spears]

But you can have the endgame start immediately at level 1. Why have the skill-less grind to inflate the character level to 60?

I know your not expecting this but can I honestly ask you why not?

Why is it the level boost exists from a game play stand point over simply having a max level alt to play the current featured expansion? Can you think of a reason beyond blizzard wanting to make money off of people wanting to skip the boring grind?

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You mean it's not ONLY a single player game. It's also not ONLY anything else. I'm bouncing off this thread but the takeaway is that you're way overthinking this yo

I mean realizing the knock on effects of a change rather then just the immediate effects isn't really overthinking it. It is more thinking it through.

[arkanon]

Hopefully I can clarify something here regarding SP Vs. MP.

If a game is SP only, and designed that way, there is no realistic way to play it multiplayer, without heavy modding or modification in some way. However, many Multiplayer games can be enjoyed to some extent without involving yourself in many or any of the multiplayer components.

I think some frustration comes from SOME individuals wanting a game that at its core, is designed around a multiplayer experience, suddenly changed fundamentally to focus more heavily on the SP experience.

Let me try and put it another way - a Ferrari 812 is a vehicle clearly focused on performance, somewhat at the cost of comfort, and practicality. There is absolutely nothing stopping someone buying a Ferrari 812 to casually drive the 2km to the shops to buy groceries, and casually drive back. But to then desperately try and convince Ferrari to put a smaller, quiet engine in it with only 90hp, add more storage for groceries, add more seats for dropping kids off at school, and raise it up for better road clearance and comfort is not a logical thing to do, especially when far better alternatives already exist. If you dont like high performance cars, with all the ups and downs that come with owning one, then a Ferrari 812 is probably not the right car for you.

[Ragedaug]

The simple truth is that they shouldn't progress. Every progression system proposed is a skill less grind that would do nothing but inflate ilv. I don't believe blizzard has the talent to make interesting single player progression and given the complaints about mage tower when it was current I doubt these players honestly want to progress.

Well, to your claim that they should not progress, all I can say is, that's just like your opinion man. I doubt I'll be able to change your mind. I'm glad Blizzard doesn't share that opinion.

I'm curious if you could make a compelling argument to change my mind on why solo players, some of whom I know have been playing for 12+ years, shouldn't be able to progress.

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Can you think of a reason beyond blizzard wanting to make money off of people wanting to skip the boring grind?

That's exactly why they do it. It's why they built content for raiders, it's why they build content for solo players. It's why they build a variety of content for all sorts of players to progress through. "To make money". My suggestion would be for everyone who enjoys playing WoW to be thankful that the people who created WoW were interested in making money. I suspect WoW would not exist otherwise.

On another note, you seem to believe the point of an MMORPG is to raid. While dungeons are historically a component of RPGs, they are only a component. I would suggest that the point of an MMORPG is to play in a persistent world, where you can progress your character(s), which can be performed in a variety of methods, including both solo and group play.

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Let me try and put it another way - a Ferrari 812 is a vehicle clearly focused on performance, somewhat at the cost of comfort, and practicality. There is absolutely nothing stopping someone buying a Ferrari 812 to casually drive the 2km to the shops to buy groceries, and casually drive back. But to then desperately try and convince Ferrari to put a smaller, quiet engine in it with only 90hp, add more storage for groceries, add more seats for dropping kids off at school, and raise it up for better road clearance and comfort is not a logical thing to do, especially when far better alternatives already exist. If you dont like high performance cars, with all the ups and downs that come with owning one, then a Ferrari 812 is probably not the right car for you.

I would submit that WoW is more like a garage, with lots of cars. The folks driving Ferraris get pissy when anyone tries to dress up their 4 cylinder with a sporty exterior, and they would prefer it if all the family cars were just kicked out of the garage.

[arkanon]

I would submit that WoW is more like a garage, with lots of cars. The folks driving Ferraris get pissy when anyone tries to dress up their 4 cylinder with a sporty exterior, and they would prefer it if all the family cars were just kicked out of the garage.

No thats just it - if anything, its the people in the 4cyl family car saying "its not fair that he has a Ferrari, why cant i have a Ferrari? I work 3 hours a week at my local convenience store - I want a Ferrari too! Why are these Ferrari owners, who work far, FAR harder than me, doing a substantially more challenging job deserve a Ferrari more than me?"


And then when the Ferrari owners say "hey, more than happy for you to have one too - the more that have one the more we get at our car meets and the more people to race! But, you should earn it, just like we all did"

And then the 4cyl owners start calling the Ferrari owners "Elitist Assholes", and "Gatekeepers", and make ridiculous claims about them BLOCKING anyone else from owning a Ferrari, all while completely unwilling to progress and improve, increase their training, gain the qualifications required to obtain a higher paying job, which would allow them to purchase the Ferrari.

[ippollite]

Y'all have it wrong. Its like a gym in a big city that opened to huge fanfare and had all the modern equipment, classes and mod cons of your average nice gym. It was super pow=pular and everyone loved it.

Then a group of meatheads came in and complained about the noobs in their free weight space taking up the benches for exercises that could be done using the machines. And, having some sympathy, and kinda feeling similar (being also gym-bros), the owners and trainers decided it wanted to cater to everyone so it took out some treadmills and bikes, and threw in a few more benches.

Yet the weight clanging, grunting and general intimidating vibe increased. More meatheads hopped up on preworkout and roid raging grabbed all the weights and jealously guarded them for 40 minutes for their super sets, tri-sets or dropsets. The regulars eventually just turned up less and less and the noobs joining the gym better get with the etiquette fast. The people running the gym, bros themselves but who initially tried to take their bro-ness and put it to good by teaching others, sat and laughed with their bro meathead regulars about their lame normies who sign up for years at a time and still havent got below 20% body fat. What are they even doing? Lol! I dunno! Theyre just wasting their money and time! Dude, i know!

The owner, looking at the receipts and seeing their retention dropping decides that the classes arent really bringing in the customers. So what they need is a new cardio space with tyre pulls, farmer carries and all kinds of 'bodyweight' back to basics exercises that people loved in the old days in an attempt to drive business. Meanwhile, the cardio machines are stripped out for more new free weight stands to appeal to the regulars who seem to never shut up about the wasted square foot ratio of cardio to weight training in the gym space, and that more weight stuff and less cardio/class stuff is exactly what they need to turn this into a serious gym for serious people and not just some BS planet fitness for those folks who buy memberships and dont even use the equipment.

For some weird reason, the few remaining folks who just liked coming to the gym and hang out with their friends and were really just there to keep fit and not actually enter a bodybuilding competition are amazed when one of their former gym buddy friends invites them to the nearby planet fitness. They suddenly find a fun, cheerful, friendly place full of people, classes and varied equipment. Even the meatheads werent as super serious. They even had trainers walking around helping you with your form and telling you how to use the machines without shaming you by posting to all their snap friends about the noob in the gym using the machines wrong. Once their membership ran out, they signed up at the new place.

The meatheads got to keep the place. And any day now a whole new wave of meatheads will join that gym and the place will be hustling again, like it once did. "Any day now", they keep telling themselves.