9.1 seems to be addressing the casual gearing concerns

[Glorious Leader]

This isn’t as complicated as you are making it out to be.

Is the game better for casuals if they can target bis or close to bis gear? Yes.

Is the game worse for hardcore players if that’s the case? No.

So what exactly is the argument here? That you want the game to be worse for other people for... reasons,

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Wow has been declining for a decade. The question isn’t what is going to kill or end wow. That’s silly. Ultima Online is still on. Everquest is still on The question is if wow is going to decline to the point where they stop putting as many resources into it, and it’s really clear that they’ve already started to do that. This expansion was exceptionally small, and the delay to 9.1 is insane.

Where are the players mainly going? FF14, because it is the game most like wow on the market. So it’s valid to compare the designs of these games.

Its also like the most obvious answer. Yea wow will change if lots of people leave. It doesn't really offer any insight into how it will change and will that change be for better or worse. Its not even analysis or opinion its just stating the obvious.

[tomten]

Where are the players mainly going? FF14, because it is the game most like wow on the market. So it’s valid to compare the designs of these games.

Lemme know how many players that braindead game retains.
Also lemme know how many will quit INSTANTLY when anything wow is released? Why? Its the superior game ofc.

[Kaver]

Oh Blizzars is absolutely ������ to blame here but they've been acting in response to feedback from hardcores who felt forced to participate in content. They should have been ignored. Franky the game should force them.

Every tier should have benthic.

Pvp gear is not a problem. It simple another avenue for progression. It ls not a problem for people who like to pvp and pursue that gear. Hardcores are bitching about forced pvp content.

Hardcore players were doing lfr for tier sets. Raiding guilds were queuing for lfr for trinket and set bonuses including method.

The only feedback that Hardcore players gave was to remove the AP grind and remove titanforging. Everything else is Blizzards own ideas. And the only content that hardcore players were forced to do was farming AP in Island Expeditions.

Tier sets being removed is not something that hardcore players wanted. Most hardcore players want tier sets BACK. So if you think otherwise then you're simply delusional. Sorry.

Most Hardcore players were also okay with the benthic gear in general. The main issue was the RNG casino game for the right bonus and sockets. But that can easily be fixed. Again, the idea that hardcore players are against badge systems is something that happen in your own head. It's NOT REAL.

Hardcore players only asked for a few things. Mainly get rid of the AP grind and Titanforging. ALL THE REST IS FUCKING BLIZZARDS IDEAS! Nobody wants M+ to give shit rewards.

[rhorle]

Where are the players mainly going? FF14, because it is the game most like wow on the market. So it’s valid to compare the designs of these games.

Not really since as you say WoW has been declining for a decade. So it isn't just one game design system of one expansion that is at fault if as you say the decline has been happening for ten or more years. Ultimate Online still being on, Everquest still being around, and all the others just shows that WoW will be fine even if players quit and move to a game they enjoy better.

Look at how we have gone full circle to "If you don't like it quit" being acceptable. Weird huh? It won't be a problem for the game because people have been quitting since the game started. New players come, old players leave. Old players come back, New players leave. Etc. WoW needs to design for those that are still playing while trying a balance for new players.

But you don't keep a game healthy by only going after those people that are unhappy or not playing.

[Glorious Leader]

The only feedback that Hardcore players gave was to remove the AP grind and remove titanforging.

THATS OTHER PEOPLES CONTENT. So when they gut the ap grind because its "mandatory" they eliminate a wealth of casual progression. Now think about this for just a second. If the AP grind was forced because it offered alot of player power what does that mean about the pvp gearing system which is also incredible lucrative?well they must also be forced...and what has the complaint been from hardcores? FORCED TO PVP! Apply to this literally any content that contained a modicum of reward and you can bet it was gutted because hardcores cried about being forced. Do they want tier sets back? I'm sure they do ... they don't want it in lfr or from badges or from world content because it was removed from lfr and badges before it was removed from the game entirely.

[Kaver]

THATS OTHER PEOPLES CONTENT. So when they gut the ap grind because its "mandatory" they eliminate a wealth of casual progression.

Fair enough I can agree on that. But all the other shit you mention are not Hardcore players fault. You can blame them for Titanforging and AP. But nothing else. The rest is all Blizzards own fucking ideas. And hardcore players hate most of them just like casuals do.

[Glorious Leader]

Fair enough I can agree on that. But all the other shit you mention are not Hardcore players fault. You can blame them for Titanforging and AP. But nothing else. The rest is all Blizzards own fucking ideas. And hardcore players hate most of them just like casuals do.

Its all Blizzards fault but your missing the fucking point. If hardcore players complain about forced content vis a vi the AP grind then it stands to reason they will (and they did) complain about ANY LUCRATIVE COTENT. So it all gets gutted of any rewards that may be very good for casuals but mandatory for hardcores. Its like clockwork. Now its forced pvp content because pvp gearing is to good.

[Kaver]

I'm sure they do ... they don't want it in lfr or from badges or from world content because it was removed from lfr and badges before it was removed from the game entirely.

Tier sets was actually ADDED to lfr in Legion. Before that you could only get a discount version. And you were never able to get tier sets from any casual badge system. Also no hardcore player has any issue with tier sets being in lfr. We don't care about lfr. You do you.

[Frozenbro]

Now its forced pvp content because pvp gearing is to good.

For the high end, casuals never touched the gear that made pvp gearing an issue, if you are clueless about the reason, dont voice your opinion.

[Kaver]

Its all Blizzards fault but your missing the fucking point. If hardcore players complain about forced content vis a vi the AP grind then it stands to reason they will (and they did) complain about ANY LUCRATIVE COTENT. So it all gets gutted of any rewards that may be very good for casuals but mandatory for hardcores. Its like clockwork. Now its forced pvp content because pvp gearing is to good.

It's not because of Hardcore players because they don't do most of the casual content anyway. And how did being able to get 226 gear from 2100 pvp help casuals.. it didn't. They couldn't get it anyway. The pvp gear had nothing to do with casual vs hardcore. It was a pvp vs pve problem. Your focus on the problem is completely wrong. You're blaming hardcore players for something they have no blame for.

The only systems that got gutted because of Hardcore players were the endless AP grind and Titanforging. And casuals didn't AP grind anyway. Otherwise they wouldn't be casuals.

[Frozenbro]

It's not because of Hardcore players because they don't do most of the casual content anyway. And how did being able to get 226 gear from 2100 pvp help casuals.. it didn't. They couldn't get it anyway. The pvp gear had nothing to do with casual vs hardcore. It was a pvp vs pve problem. Your focus on the problem is completely wrong. You're blaming hardcore players for something they have no blame for.

He wont understand xd he just uses it as argument to fit his narrative, he actually doesnt understand what part of pvp gearing was broken, he obviously ignores the tiny little detail of casuals never touching the gear that made pvp gearing an issue, unless he lives in a world where casuals get 226 conquest gear by getting 2100+ pvp rating (usually farmed on broken mmr rated bgs) and 233 weps on weekly chest for having 2400 rating hes just that kind of user.

[Glorious Leader]

. And you were never able to get tier sets from any casual badge system.

Ulduar and togc and icc disagree

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It's not because of Hardcore players because they don't do most of the casual content anyway.

They expressly did. The Legion weaposn were casual friendly content. It was the same power grind no matter what content you did at any pace you liked.

[NineSpine]

The argument here is that you're wrong?
The correct answer from both your question is. No. Yes.
I don't feel like your entitlement should diminish the work me and others have put in. I would feel worse. It would also invalidate several game modes, why do normal/heroic raiding or m+ when you can "target gear via world quests".

I agree, its not complicated so I fail to see how you can be this dense
The real irony here is that they've tried your way and it failed, so they changed it and thank fuck for that

Yet, somehow, by some weird miracle, by some fluke of the universe, other games that allow players to do this don’t have these problems you claim are inevitable. Destiny doesn’t have this problem. FF14 doesn’t have this problem. GW2 doesn’t have this problem.

Why? Because players that do high end content still gear up faster, and still ultimately end up ahead. You seem to believe, completely irrationally, that “can get high ilvl gear” means “can get the exact same gear as high end players at the exact same rate”.

But anyway, you proved my point: your entire argument is that your feelings will be hurt if someone else does something that has absolutely fucking nothing to do with you. It’s all your little emotional tirade, nothing else.

[Glorious Leader]

For the high end, casuals never touched the gear that made pvp gearing an issue, if you are clueless about the reason, dont voice your opinion.

The reason was because it was too lucrative. This only illustrates the point. If ANY FORM OF CONTENT is too lucrative than hardcore players (in this case pvers) will complain about being forced to do it. Which they did. Pvp players also complained for years about having to do pve content as well but blizzard doesn't seem to give a shit about pve. The point that both you geniuses seem to miss is that their is a history of complaints about so called mandatory grinds on the part of the hardcore community that the developers are sensitive too and routinely try to gut until it bites them in the ass.

[NineSpine]

Not really since as you say WoW has been declining for a decade. So it isn't just one game design system of one expansion that is at fault if as you say the decline has been happening for ten or more years. Ultimate Online still being on, Everquest still being around, and all the others just shows that WoW will be fine even if players quit and move to a game they enjoy better.

Look at how we have gone full circle to "If you don't like it quit" being acceptable. Weird huh? It won't be a problem for the game because people have been quitting since the game started. New players come, old players leave. Old players come back, New players leave. Etc. WoW needs to design for those that are still playing while trying a balance for new players.

But you don't keep a game healthy by only going after those people that are unhappy or not playing.

If you want wow to get the kind of financial support for more content that Everquest 1 gets, then sure, good point bro.

Like I said, this is all “fuck this game as long as there are people I can spit on as it burns down”

[Frozenbro]

The reason was because it was too lucrative. This only illustrates the point. If ANY FORM OF CONTENT is too lucrative than hardcore players (in this case pvers) will complain about being forced to do it. Which they did. Pvp players also complained for years about having to do pve content as well but blizzard doesn't seem to give a shit about pve. The point that both you geniuses seem to miss is that their is a history of complaints about so called mandatory grinds on the part of the hardcore community that the developers are sensitive too and routinely try to gut until it bites them in the ass.

It was only really good for the highest rating of pvp, rating casuals will never touch, thanks for proving the point, but like i said you dont understand what part of pvp gearing was broken, as if a casual upgrading their conquest gear to 213 is an issue LOL.

[Elias1337]

I really don't think that this whole debate has that much to do with gear, but rather it has everything to do with the "elite" players wanting to feel special.

Or rather with players what are too lazy to put effort into their game but still want best rewards by doing their trivial content. Best part is that those people actualy think that it will make game fun for them somehow. But human nature do not work this way. Nobady cares about rewards what you didnt earn. You can throw as much high itemlvl on casual playerabse as you want.They will get bored anyway.

[Glorious Leader]

It was only really good for the highest rating of pvp, rating casuals will never touch, thanks for proving the point, but like i said you dont understand what part of pvp gearing was broken, as if a casual upgrading their conquest gear to 213 is an issue LOL.

So you aren't disputing that they were complaining about it being mandatory and it being changed to accommodate that complaint. Thanks for showing you have trouble with basic reading comprehension

[NineSpine]

Or rather with players what are too lazy to put effort into their game but still want best rewards by doing their trivial content. Best part is that those people actualy think that it will make game fun for them somehow. But human nature do not work this way. Nobady cares about rewards what you didnt earn. You can throw as much high itemlvl on casual playerabse as you want.They will get bored anyway.

Oh is that why FF14 keeps growing?

[Frozenbro]

So you aren't disputing that they were complaining about it being mandatory and it being changed to accommodate that complaint. Thanks for showing you have trouble with basic reading comprehension

It was an issue in the highest rating of pvp, problem that was adressed by blizz and doesnt interfere with w/e gear casuals could potentially get, cause the pvp fix only really affects the best pvp gear, gear that was actually the problem, 226 ilvl stuff with 2100+ rating and 233 weapons from weekly chest by having 2400+ rating, again, things.that.a.casual.will.never.touch, but keep thinking this change ruins the casuals life in your head.