Is The Weight Tanks Hold in M+ Good Design?

[tomten]

Obviously it’s a risk/reward tradeoff. You want to increase dps as much as possible but increasing dps usually means greater risk of death so you want to optimize. A death is often so punishing and the extra dps is usually so minimal that outside of very top end many tanks will be fairly cautious. Me getting in 2 extra swipes at the cost of another stack of bleed against the dogs in HOA becomes a bad tradeoff fairly quickly.

It’s not an absolute, it’s a risk reward tradeoff that you try to optimize for your level.

For resource classes, playing 100% optimally, such as protection paladin, will net you both the highest dps and highest survivability, by design. And this is true for most, if not all tank classes... You have to go out of your way to choose dps trinkets, gems, enchants and to a degree stat selection on gear. But even that you should optimize, if you never need a survivability talent or trinket, change for offensive and do even more dps..

[Razion]

It sucks because tanks are players too, and they need ways to express mastery and skill like dps without their death resulting in an insta-wipe for everyone else.

In modern day this is kinda solved with tanks having extra lives with certain abilities like Ardent Defender or Purgatory, and the Veng variant.

But nowadays the extra life system seems to just be another CD expected to be burned rather than a real safety net that lets tanks fail while being able to try again like dps might when they fail.

It's almost like tanks need... another set of free lives per life they have, to equal how many dps and the healer there is or something. But maybe that'd be silly...?

[Lord Pebbleton]

Thanks for proving my point.

Boy chill, I don't even know what your point was. I just wanted to be funny

[tomten]

I find most of this hard to believe. First, when m+ involves as much kiting as it does, and kiting increases survivability, then it's not true that playing optimally will net highest dps because you have to kite (this may not be true for demon hunters). And very basically, more survivability can mean less kiting and more dps.

Then, you're talking about m+ tanks out there who never need a survivability trinket. If that's true then they're not pulling enough - you're not describing a real case.

It's always a tradeoff between survivability and dps. If you take off the tank trinket that has a 60k absorb (blood spattered scale) then maybe you do .2k more dps but you can't pull an extra pack so it's not worth it. The benefit of pulling extra is huge, the benefit of a bit more tank dps is small.

I think you're talking about raiding, not m+. And even then, it's certainly not true that playing 100% offensively is also best defensively for all tanks. I play guardian, and playing 100% offensively would mean never using ironfur or frenzied regen. Warriors have abilities that use rage either offensively or defensively. I'm sure other tanks have the same.

So no, I don't agree with anything you said.

Do you always kite 100%, no? What a stupid argument.
Ask any pro tank and they'll tell you, if you need for example splintered alar to stay alive? You've played wrong to begin with. Same goes for talents like final stand and the likes. Just because its not YOUR case doesn't mean its not real lol...

Last time i checked, you have 2 trinket slots? scale also does dps. And you talk about real cases, yet think pulling an extra pack just because you have scales is a a good idea and nothing that will wipe most pugs? *rolleyes*

I don't play all tanks thats why I referenced "most".
You can switch it around, playing the most defensively will give me the most dps, its just wording on your part.
And then its true for most tanks, even warriors, who shouldn't be spending rage on revenge.

You don't have to agree with anything when you lack basic understanding bro

[Darsyek]

Every single thing a DPS does, the tank has todo on top of everything else regarding the tank role.
I challenge you and everyone in this thread, name something unique only a dps does, that a tank also does not do.

Necrotic Wake:
1. Blightbone's Heaving Retch targets DPS but not the tank in almost all situations.
2. Surgeon Stitchflesh abominations target anyone else but the tank in almost all situations.
3. Surgeon Stitchflesh Morbid Fixation favors targeting DPS over tanks.
4. Nalthor's Dark Exile does not ever target the tank.

Mist of Tirna Scithe
1. Mistcaller Freeze Tag targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

Halls of Atonement
1. Echelon Stone Shattering Leap targets DPS in almost all situations
2. High Adjudicater Aleez Ghastly Parishioner targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
3. Lord Chamberlain's Telekinetic Toss targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

De Other Side
1. Mueh'zala's Cosmic Artifice targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

Sanguine Depths
1. Kryxis the Voracious' Juggernaut Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
2. Executor Tarvold's Castigate targets DPS in almost all situations
3. General Kaal's Wicked Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

Spires of Ascension
1. Kin-Tara's Charged Spear targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
2. Ventunax's Dark Stride targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
3. Oryphrion's Purifying Blast targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

Theater of Pain
1. Xav the Unfallen's Blood and Glory targets 2 DPS in almost all situations
2. Kul'Tharok's Draw Soul targets 2 DPS in almost all situations

These are but a few examples of the mechanics that tanks don't have to deal with but DPS or healers do, and these are just from the dungeons. Not even including Castle Nathria where, from my experience, a good chunk of the bosses boil down to a tank and spank where you occasionally run away for 5 seconds and taunt swap every so often while the DPS all run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

[erifwodahs]

SNIP

That wasn't the point. Tanks do their mechanics, dps do their mechanics.

[Garymorilix]

The reason for this is entirely Prideful.

Prideful is very punishing to fuck up.
Unlike Reaping during 8.1, which was just a big AoE fuckfest, Prideful requires you to pop it at the best time possible because not only does the Pride kill you (unlike reaping that you could just AoE down in 2 seconds) it also gives you a buff that is sometimes straight up mandatory for some pulls.

This combined with the fact that dungeons have a much more linear design (Prideful wouldn't be much of an issue in Atal'dazar or Freehold type dungeons) and suddenly tanks are expected to manage all of this because they do the pulls and they have to call skips for 4 other people who might not even have invis pots in the first place.

I really hope they won't do another % based affix again.

If Blizz wants us to do tactical skips in M+ they should offer more open dungeons like Freehold with multiple paths to take so we can decide for ourselves.
Not force us down a linear hallway micro managing trash %.

[Kaykay]

They do hold too much weight, but only because of how pride works. If you didn't have to time percentages for each bossfight or "big pull", then having a janky route wouldn't be as punishing as it is today.
Hopefully our next seasonal affix will be less punishing to the tank.

[erifwodahs]

The reason for this is entirely Prideful.

This is very true, as a tank, if I didn't care about the prides I could do way nicer routes in DoS i.e. Meeting certain % at certain points is restrictive. I mean it's not horrible and it's quite nice/fun to start with, but it gets very stale quite quickly.

[Darsyek]

That wasn't the point. Tanks do their mechanics, dps do their mechanics.

I mean hey, he asked - in fact challenged - for things DPS do that tanks don't, never specified to what degree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[erifwodahs]

I mean hey, he asked - in fact challenged - for things DPS do that tanks don't, never specified to what degree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That is true

[Super Kami Dende]

How is the weight the tank has any different from the rest for M+?

If you don't have a healer, you die from no heals.
if you don't have DPS, you fail from running out of time.
If you don't have a tank you die from getting hit.

[Rhoe]

Necrotic Wake:
1. Blightbone's Heaving Retch targets DPS but not the tank in almost all situations. And you still have to move out of it as tank
2. Surgeon Stitchflesh abominations target anyone else but the tank in almost all situations. And you still have to move out of it as tank
3. Surgeon Stitchflesh Morbid Fixation favors targeting DPS over tanks.
4. Nalthor's Dark Exile does not ever target the tank.

Mist of Tirna Scithe
1. Mistcaller Freeze Tag targets DPS or healer in almost all situations And you have to move away from it as tank or risk breaking cc

Halls of Atonement
1. Echelon Stone Shattering Leap targets DPS in almost all situations This is false, I've had this target me plenty of times as tank
2. High Adjudicater Aleez Ghastly Parishioner targets DPS or healer in almost all situations This is false, I've had this target me plenty of times as tank
3. Lord Chamberlain's Telekinetic Toss targets DPS or healer in almost all situations And you still have to move out of it as tank

De Other Side
1. Mueh'zala's Cosmic Artifice targets DPS or healer in almost all situations And you still have to move out of it as tank

Sanguine Depths
1. Kryxis the Voracious' Juggernaut Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations And you still have to move into it as tank
2. Executor Tarvold's Castigate targets DPS in almost all situations And you still have to move out of it as tank
3. General Kaal's Wicked Rush targets DPS or healer in almost all situations And you still have to move out of it as tank

Spires of Ascension
1. Kin-Tara's Charged Spear targets DPS or healer in almost all situations This is false, I've had it target me plenty of times as tank
2. Ventunax's Dark Stride targets DPS or healer in almost all situations
3. Oryphrion's Purifying Blast targets DPS or healer in almost all situations

Theater of Pain
1. Xav the Unfallen's Blood and Glory targets 2 DPS in almost all situations
2. Kul'Tharok's Draw Soul targets 2 DPS in almost all situations

These are but a few examples of the mechanics that tanks don't have to deal with but DPS or healers do, and these are just from the dungeons. Not even including Castle Nathria where, from my experience, a good chunk of the bosses boil down to a tank and spank where you occasionally run away for 5 seconds and taunt swap every so often while the DPS all run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

You seem misinformed about many abilities that target tank despite the whole group being alive, and many others that affect the tank even if the tank isn't a target. And I don't see why you bring raid tanking into it. Yes, many raid fights are incredibly boring for the tank where you just stand there and taunt sometimes. This is very rarely the case in m+. The only case I can think of in SL is Kul'Tharok in ToP. You can't even move that boss, so the fight is literally designed to make the tank just stand there and never move.

- - - Updated - - -

How is the weight the tank has any different from the rest for M+?

If you don't have a healer, you die from no heals.
if you don't have DPS, you fail from running out of time.
If you don't have a tank you die from getting hit.

If you don't have a healer, DOS +20 is still doable
If you don't have a healer or dps, Mists +17 is still doable (not on time)
But the only video without a tank I can find is a feral druid hotw tanking Mists +14, and I mean, that's still kind of a tank...

[Kumorii]

There is no reason for the tank to be the only one knowing the route. I see most success when everyone knows it, you can help pull more you can help mark if you are leader while he's grabbing stuff etc etc... I don't think the design puts the responsibility on tanks, it's players because they don't want to. Because if they take lead and it goes badly they are to blame, it's easier to blame someone else.

I mean, I've even done boosts where the tank know how to play but don't know the route and says so and then someone else says, takes these, take those and there is no real time loss.

[Darsyek]

You seem misinformed about many abilities that target tank despite the whole group being alive, and many others that affect the tank even if the tank isn't a target. And I don't see why you bring raid tanking into it. Yes, many raid fights are incredibly boring for the tank where you just stand there and taunt sometimes. This is very rarely the case in m+. The only case I can think of in SL is Kul'Tharok in ToP. You can't even move that boss, so the fight is literally designed to make the tank just stand there and never move.

Ah yes, so I see you do not understand the meaning of "in almost all situations." Yes, many of these mechanics can target tanks, but they tend to prefer other targets. As for your notes about having to move into or out of mechanics, that's often only the case if the person the mechanic is actually targeted towards is doing something wrong and isn't taking the mechanic out of the group like they're supposed to - the one noteworthy exception being Kryxis' Juggernaut Rush which, quite frankly, if all the DPS and the healer get into the path, the tank isn't really necessarily required to also move into it, it's just that most good tanks would.

[Scarnage86]

so for now we all agree:
- Remove pridefull
- lower the % mob needed so more route/skip can be made

[Matthias]

so for now we all agree:
- Remove pridefull
- lower the % mob needed so more route/skip can be made

Prideful is the main issue clearly. But with the new Season comes a new route that I need to learn. Needing to remember where to the portals the final Season in BFA comes to mind. Now at least that was easier, as you weren't shifting routes depending on the affixes.

[Wuusah]

You guys make prideful more complicated than it is. You don’t have to learn new routes for different weeks. If learning routes is the difficult part for you then you are not playing on key levels where a different route is necessary.

Prideful is a great seasonal affix. You just make it too complicated for yourself

[Erleichda]

I think non-obvious routes and skips is a bad design. The whole % thing can't realistically be figured on the fly. And the game doesn't even offer the info needed to prepare for it. So it's strictly "have you looked this up or downloaded the addon". That's not interesting, or even challenging so much as tedious. There could still be different routes with different strengths and weaknesses an experienced player would want to know. They should just be more obvious, like "go through this room on the right side or the left side" where either path gives the same % and it's the amount you have to clear from that room to hit exactly 100%.

Make the options more clear and well-defined and the decision becomes more engaging because the player can actually understand it.

They could take all the CC away from tanks and lay that off on DPS. A lot of interrupting too probably.

[Rhoe]

Ah yes, so I see you do not understand the meaning of "in almost all situations." Yes, many of these mechanics can target tanks, but they tend to prefer other targets.

I've had those target me with everyone in the group alive, as in all 5 people are alive and well, not dead, and still got targeted as tank. Many times. I hope that's clear enough for you.

I most frequently play with fire mage, boomy, warrior and disc priest, so the only one out of those that has an immune is the mage and he doesn't iceblock for no reason so I have a very hard time seeing why this comp being alive and well would frequently result in me being the target and also count as a "weird situation". Unless you mean to say that the game doesn't count guardian druid as a tank?