Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[ati87]

I wouldn't be engaging in colonialism or apartheid that would be causing the bombings in the first place, so.

"Terrorism is scary" is not justification for belligerence. Grow up.

Kind of explains it
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-always-fails

Contrary to what nearly every US mediator has asserted, it is not that Israel greatly desires a peace agreement but has a pretty good fallback option. It is that Israel greatly prefers the fallback option to a peace agreement.

And this is true, Israel has really nothing to gain from a viable Palestinian state and in no point in time was this ever a option for Israeli government and people. Best offer over the years was a country where the Palestinians weren't allowed to control there borders, have a army and not be allowed to normalise relations with other countries without approval from Israel.

[JohnBrown1917]

And maybe your view would change if you were the one receiving the rocket ? Or one of your relative that would die to one of those rockets ?

Ok, so Palestinians are also now justified in murdering Israeli civilians if they had relatives die in attacks from the IDF?

[Specialka]

Ok, so Palestinians are also now justified in murdering Israeli civilians if they had relatives die in attacks from the IDF?

Depends who fired first ? Can anyone say who shot first at start ?

Obviously, the better solution would be for everyone to lower their weapons and discuss around a table but, as long as Hamas is a terrorist organization, it won't happen.

[Themius]

Depends who fired first ? Can anyone say who shot first at start ?

Obviously, the better solution would be for everyone to lower their weapons and discuss around a table but, as long as Hamas is a terrorist organization, it won't happen.

Israel started first. You know.. invading an area and hurting people is an act of war.. Imagine if a bunch of Canadians suddenly popped up in new york and tried to claim Roosevelt island as theirs so they started arresting new yorkers and bashing their heads in and sometimes shooting doctors or paramedics.

[JohnBrown1917]

Depends who fired first ? Can anyone say who shot first at start ?

Obviously, the better solution would be for everyone to lower their weapons and discuss around a table but, as long as Hamas is a terrorist organization, it won't happen.

So why again is it justified when the IDF does it?

[Endus]

I am probably older than you. And I am curious how you would explain it to your population and avoid being removed from office or torn to shred by them if, after a bombing, you would say: "nah it's cool, we should not retaliate".

Nobody would have a problem with Israel retaliating against Hamas.

The problem is that, instead, they attack and kill innocent Palestinians.

Bragging about how many more innocents you target and kill than Hamas is not really the best argument that you're their moral superior. It's a declaration that you're willing to do more evil than they are in pursuit of victory.

[ati87]

Nobody would have a problem with Israel retaliating against Hamas.

The problem is that, instead, they attack and kill innocent Palestinians.

Bragging about how many more innocents you target and kill than Hamas is not really the best argument that you're their moral superior. It's a declaration that you're willing to do more evil than they are in pursuit of victory.

Actually I personally do because Israel literally calls everybody Hamas regardless of who or what that person does. I mean is it that hard to imagine that Israel wouldn't target the accountant of Gaza which also means the accountant of Hamas since Hamas controls Gaza?

Hamas and other groups could lay down there weapons today and Israel would still not want any sort of sovereign functioning independent Palestinian state because Israel literally would gain nothing in return.

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Israel started first. You know.. invading an area and hurting people is an act of war.. Imagine if a bunch of Canadians suddenly popped up in new york and tried to claim Roosevelt island as theirs so they started arresting new yorkers and bashing their heads in and sometimes shooting doctors or paramedics.

Problem lies in that Israeli in general consider the Palestinians at best guest regardless of how long they have been living there, it's basically the story of Goldilocks and the Three Bears from the Israeli pov.

[Easo]

Sorry you don’t like Israel’s stance.

And now evading what I asked. Lol. Was it really that hard to answer, eh?

Yes.

Compared to Gaza, where there is such a lack of public bomb shelters that civilians often have to take cover in UN funded schools.


Yes, people die.

The point is that the number of people that do actually die is in no way proportionate to the response Israel inflicts given the massive disparity in force and infrastructure.

To say nothing of the whole colonization and apartheid thing, which y'all continue to seem to regard as necessary for Israel to exist.

You have strange understanding of 3 star hotels + cherrypicking. Just googling "Israel bomb shelters" one can find enough of small cramped spaces with empty walls, especially those pre-manufacted ones.
Btw, they do not protect from direct hits.

So basically since Jews die less (due to goverment spending insane amount of cash to protect them, I might add) it is OK, since Israel does bad things. Great logic.

Nobody would have a problem with Israel retaliating against Hamas.

The problem is that, instead, they attack and kill innocent Palestinians.

Bragging about how many more innocents you target and kill than Hamas is not really the best argument that you're their moral superior. It's a declaration that you're willing to do more evil than they are in pursuit of victory.

Endus still living in a fantasy world where military strikes can 100% avoid civilians and/or that Israel deliberately targets them. As I said - your Canada would do exactly the same, you just can't grasp it.

[uuuhname]

Endus still living in a fantasy world where military strikes can 100% avoid civilians and/or that Israel deliberately targets them. As I said - your Canada would do exactly the same, you just can't grasp it.

still living in this fantasy world where the IDF doesn't put literal children in with Hamas as "terrorists neutralized" when bragging about how many they killed.

[Endus]

Endus still living in a fantasy world where military strikes can 100% avoid civilians and/or that Israel deliberately targets them. As I said - your Canada would do exactly the same, you just can't grasp it.

You're still justifying the slaughter of dozens of children.

You need to think about what that says about you, dude.

[Easo]

You're still justifying the slaughter of dozens of children.

You need to think about what that says about you, dude.

Justifying at least partly implies I approve their deaths.
I said something different, which you sadly are not getting. I once more commend your idealism, if nothing else.

[Santti]

Endus still living in a fantasy world where military strikes can 100% avoid civilians and/or that Israel deliberately targets them. As I said - your Canada would do exactly the same, you just can't grasp it.

Don't know about deliberate, but they clearly don't give a shit about potential civilian casualties. These amounts of dead people are just too much to be just unlucky accidents.

And I seriously doubt Canada would be in their situation in the first place. I'd imagine most western countries wouldn't be, either. Some sort of 1-state or 2-state solution would have been created, ages a go.

[Draco-Onis]

End times?

They also call it other things like the ultimate holocaust, battle for Armageddon such friends of Israel.

[Endus]

Justifying at least partly implies I approve their deaths.
I said something different, which you sadly are not getting. I once more commend your idealism, if nothing else.

Every time you say it's a practical necessity, that's what you're doing; arguing that these civilian deaths are justified and good, because of the other military goals achieved.

That's what "justifying" means; arguing that such an action was "justified" because of "reasons".

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And I seriously doubt Canada would be in their situation in the first place. I'd imagine most western countries wouldn't be, either. Some sort of 1-state or 2-state solution would have been created, ages a go.

I'm not responding to those particular points for a pretty specific reason; we just uncovered a mass grave of more than 200 First Nations children at one of our old Residential Schools, a system that was active within living memory (though like 80 years ago, so not recent memory) and was used to actively commit cultural genocide on First Nations peoples by taking their children away to "civilize" them.

It was super fucking gross and Canada's already been making efforts to apologize and make amends for those crimes against humanity, and this new revelation has rocked us pretty hard. It's at the point where we're trying to pressure the Pope into releasing records on all this (many of these schools were Catholic-run). We may get more aggressive than "pressuring" about that.

But here's the big fuckin' difference; Canadians are horrified by this. This was an egregious instance of harm within a systematically abusive institution. We're doing what we can to get to the bottom of it and hold people and institutions accountable. It's still fresh, and it's gonna be a while before we're done dealing with it, but this is why I'm avoiding the "Canada would do it too" stuff.

Because we did.

And that was absolutely goddamned unacceptable, and no Canadians support it today.

Horror is the appropriate response to realizing your government killed children. Not trying to justify their slaughter.

[Santti]

I'm not responding to those particular points for a pretty specific reason; we just uncovered a mass grave of more than 200 First Nations children at one of our old Residential Schools, a system that was active within living memory (though like 80 years ago, so not recent memory) and was used to actively commit cultural genocide on First Nations peoples by taking their children away to "civilize" them.

It was super fucking gross and Canada's already been making efforts to apologize and make amends for those crimes against humanity, and this new revelation has rocked us pretty hard. It's at the point where we're trying to pressure the Pope into releasing records on all this (many of these schools were Catholic-run). We may get more aggressive than "pressuring" about that.

But here's the big fuckin' difference; Canadians are horrified by this. This was an egregious instance of harm within a systematically abusive institution. We're doing what we can to get to the bottom of it and hold people and institutions accountable. It's still fresh, and it's gonna be a while before we're done dealing with it, but this is why I'm avoiding the "Canada would do it too" stuff.

Because we did.

And that was absolutely goddamned unacceptable, and no Canadians support it today.

Horror is the appropriate response to realizing your government killed children. Not trying to justify their slaughter.

Oh, right. That did happen. Let's at least hope it was just that one place, and stayed a relatively small, unknown/well hidden operation.

And who knows. We might have some skeletons in our closets, too, regarding the Sámi people. For the same reasons.

[ati87]

Oh, right. That did happen. Let's at least hope it was just that one place, and stayed a relatively small, unknown/well hidden operation.

And who knows. We might have some skeletons in our closets, too, regarding the Sámi people. For the same reasons.

Yea...those things that happend to indigenous peoples in the US, Canada or Australia are isolated incidence right. I mean come on.....how can you even write this and think "nailed it".

The US elected a god dam buffoon an objective joke because 45% of the voting population was afraid of Mexicans.
The UK used a Nazi type of propaganda foto's to convince people to leave because of scary Turkish people coming.

And you go around believing that in either countries if those scary people decided to form in there own countries that the US or UK would just accept that?

[Easo]

Don't know about deliberate, but they clearly don't give a shit about potential civilian casualties. These amounts of dead people are just too much to be just unlucky accidents.

And I seriously doubt Canada would be in their situation in the first place. I'd imagine most western countries wouldn't be, either. Some sort of 1-state or 2-state solution would have been created, ages a go.

Ahh, the exact science of how many rounds fired are too many compared to civilian casualties. Oh, wait.

You can doubt, of course, just remember that goverments don't last long if they cannot protect their citizens.
Endus post about horrified Canadians was funny as shit. Canadians and everyone else would quickly change their minds if rockets started falling on their heads, it would not matter why they fall, just that they do. As Gaidax said - people cannot grasp something they have not experienced.

Already done been answered. You proceeded to put additional qualifiers on your question.

Nah, you and the original poster avoided answering it at all. No one in this thread had the guts to stand by their "Arabs in Israel cannot own anything".

[Gaidax]

Canadians and everyone else would quickly change their minds if rockets started falling on their heads, it would not matter why they fall, just that they do. As Gaidax said - people cannot grasp something they have not experienced.

This is the crux of it, I find it funny people thousands kilometers away from here try to preach morals.

The government that would preach peace and turning the other cheek under fire would not last long, because citizens would have none of that shit. And it's not Israel thing, it's every sane majority in every country of the world thing, when your actual home is threatened and not some "let's pound some dunes and forests thousands kilometers away because reasons" war.

[eillas]

Here are my 2 cents. I don't like Hamas or the current right-wing government of Israel. I do think Israel has a right to exist and so does Palestine. I do not agree with what Israel has done. They really crossed a line. I think a lot of US right wing who support Israel use it as a way to attack Arabs. I think there is an antisemitic issue on the left; that hides as antizionism as a smokescreen. I don't think criticizing Israel is antisemitic. I repeat I do not support Israels' current government or its current actions. I do think as John Oliver puts it kindly the US needs to tell Israel to knock it off.

[Easo]

Yep, and they can’t. Not my fault you don’t agree with Israel on what is their jurisdiction.

Let it be known that Vegas82 basically said that Israeli Arabs do not really own their cars, houses and anything else. Truly lol.