Israel and Palestine Conflict Heats Up

[Gaidax]

I’m kind of wondering if there are Israeli hostages or how many. Would a trade buy more time?

The reason I ask is because if it’s true could attacking Gaza kill the hostages?

There are 120 confirmed hostages, per today's press release.

Of course, the bombardment and the subsequent fighting WILL kill many of them. Why I already said, I consider them already as good as dead, their chances to survive this hell are minimal and I am not living in a dreamland thinking it will be some happy end here as far as hostages go.

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but this time around we're really out for blood with aim to kill the fuck out Hamas down to the last cretin wearing their green band and they show absolutely no willingness to negotiate for any other outcome.

Theoretically, they could have offered a hostage release and surrender with maybe even some conditions, as long as it results in them seizing to be as a group. That could actually put a pause to the whole war, or at least sweep the justification from under it. But I just don't see it happening very soon - maybe only if Hamas will truly be on the brink of annihilation.

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Close. So close, you missed one important part.
"Babies riddled with bullets in a school" THAT would get a pass.

Touche.

[Azadina]

I’m kind of wondering if there are Israeli hostages still alive or how many. Would a trade buy more time?

The reason I ask is because if it’s true could attacking Gaza kill the hostages?

Anything Israel does will get those hostages killed. They're held by lunatic terrorists who are itching to execute them. There's no way out for them.

[zorkuus]

Anything Israel does will get those hostages killed. They're held by lunatic terrorists who are itching to execute them. There's no way out for them.

Not doing anything will also get them killed. It's not like they're going to just release them out of good will all of a sudden. They will be held until they're dead from torture or other means.

These hostages weren't taken to make demans. They were taken to create fear.

[Draco-Onis]

Please, by all means... Explain why the statement of a lone person means anything? Is this the official stance of the government or not?

I am simply pointing out that you went from a sarcastic comment about alarmist to saying it's just one person. The Israeli's government stance at the moment is that nothing is off the table with full support from the west so I am not sure why you think anything is out of bounds.

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Anything Israel does will get those hostages killed. They're held by lunatic terrorists who are itching to execute them. There's no way out for them.

In the past they got hostages back by negotiating...

[Gaidax]

This irks me the most in this (aside from the people cheering for terrorists). You've got people suggesting these fantastical ideas that are completely out of touch with reality.

Oh, that's a modus opperandi here.

You know the usual, bruh they should just do X/Y/Z, why they so stupid, there I solved Middle East conflict.

Everyone, apparently, knows what is the right thing to do, but when asked for implementation details - things start to get complicated.

[KrayZ33]

No, the UN won't do shit. It's a useless organization of talking heads at this point.
Yes, civilians die in a war. It happens. Deal with it. You know how that doesn't happen? Don't start the fucking war. Hamas is 100% to blame, not Israel.

Everyone is to blame for their own actions.
No one gets to escape from that, get that into your head.

Hamas is responsible for the deaths they caused, Isreal is responsible for the deaths they caused.
That's not a romantic way of thinking, that's the actual reality.
You giving them the blank check is just a delusion to hide behind and you know that, because you are not truely giving them blame for 100% of what has - and what will happen, especially since you don't *know* what else will happen.

[gondrin]

Feels like people think dealing with hamas is all HAMAS = all Palestinians
I do not know the area but how different is the temperment of the west bank since it has a different governing body?

As much as i dont want indiscriminate shelling and rockets ontop of Innocence but What much choices are there with a group that didnt want to come to the table? I mean, Israel's got ground troops going in Now by what I've been hearing but before when you had hamas hiding in homes using Civilians as meat shields as well as their tunnels it would of been a meat grinder as well.



Excuse gammar. Phone at work is not the best

And this is why, as I said after 9/11, you go house to house, building to building, kicking in doors and finding them that way. Block off a whole area, do not announce it and do a sweep. If someone is actively harboring a Hamas member, not being forced at gunpoint to do so, they are treated as if they were in Hamas. Find their tunnels and blow them up. If a Hamas member uses someone as a meat shield, as sick as this is to say as it would be more dead, let them be the one who does the killing of any Palestinian civilians. It would remove any doubt that Hamas is there for the interest of the Palestinians.

Wear body cams to show this and, while blurring out faces and the like, show it to the Palestinians. Show it to the world that is what they are doing to the Palestinian people.

It is an extremely hard and extremely labor-intensive thing to do but it removes indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. Yes, it puts troops directly in harm's way but, sorry to say it, that is exactly what a military is there for.

[Draco-Onis]

Not doing anything will also get them killed. It's not like they're going to just release them out of good will all of a sudden. They will be held until they're dead from torture or other means.

No they won't, Israel will have to give them something in return that's how you know hostage negotiations work just like Israel did in the past.

[Benggaul]

I didn't refer to 9/11 to downplay the casualties, apologies if it came off that way. But two decades post-9/11 we can very clearly see that America's response to 9/11 wasn't very good and the implication is that Israel wanting to do the same ... will probably yield similar results.

Gaidax repeatedly infers that the 9/11 response was a good thing that he wants his government to emulate. Don't expect to gain traction there.

Also, FFS mods he has talked about putting people on his ignore list at least half a dozen times by now, something you've infracted several of us for on this forum in the past. Either enforce your nebulous rules equally or admit you don't know what they are either.

[zorkuus]

In the past they got hostages back by negotiating...

One or two people... after years. We're talking about 100+ hostages here that are scattered around Gaza, held by different groups.
Again, fantastical thinking.

Nevermind that Israel was just a target of a massive terrorist attack. They're going to want to eliminate Hamas from being able to do something like that again asap. Which is completely reasonable. This isn't a usual hostage situation.

[Doctor Amadeus]

There are 120 confirmed hostages, per today's press release.

Of course, the bombardment and the subsequent fighting WILL kill many of them. Why I already said, I consider them already as good as dead, their chances to survive this hell are minimal and I am not living in a dreamland thinking it will be some happy end here as far as hostages go.

Maybe I'm overly pessimistic, but this time around we're really out for blood with aim to kill the fuck out Hamas down to the last cretin wearing their green band and they show absolutely no willingness to negotiate for any other outcome.

Theoretically, they could have offered a hostage release and surrender with maybe even some conditions, as long as it results in them seizing to be as a group. That could actually put a pause to the whole war, or at least sweep the justification from under it. But I just don't see it happening very soon - maybe only if Hamas will truly be on the brink of annihilation.

Thanks for the honest response. I’m learning a lot from the conversation here. Your perspective as someone with experience in this is sobering.

[Gaidax]

And this is why, as I said after 9/11, you go house to house, building to building, kicking in doors and finding them that way. Block off a whole area, do not announce it and do a sweep. If someone is actively harboring a Hamas member, not being forced at gunpoint to do so, they are treated as if they were in Hamas. Find their tunnels and blow them up. If a Hamas member uses someone as a meat shield, as sick as this is to say as it would be more dead, let them be the one who does the killing of any Palestinian civilians. It would remove any doubt that Hamas is there for the interest of the Palestinians.

Wear body cams to show this and, while blurring out faces and the like, show it to the Palestinians. Show it to the world that is what they are doing to the Palestinian people.

It is an extremely hard and extremely labor-intensive thing to do but it removes indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians. Yes, it puts troops directly in harm's way but, sorry to say it, that is exactly what a military is there for.

Sorry to say it, but no.

It's not some superhero movie. Or some gang flick. US does not intentionally put their soldiers in harm's way this way and neither will we. Even aside the fact that you bust that fucking door open and instead the whole house may come down on you because booby traps and there is a network of tunnels that allows them to move from house to house underground anyway - and shoot you right in your back from the house that was supposedly cleared.

And yes, these are terrorists - they will use human shields, blow up houses with soldiers negotiating with people inside, set traps and road charges and what not. They have RPGs, grenades, mortars, snipers and so on - it's not some street gang with flip flops and handguns there.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Anything Israel does will get those hostages killed. They're held by lunatic terrorists who are itching to execute them. There's no way out for them.

Yeah was reading about some of the families. So that’s why I wondered. Maybe that would have been a path forward

[Gaidax]

Thanks for the honest response. I’m learning a lot from the conversation here. Your perspective as someone with experience in this is sobering.

You are welcome.

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Yeah was reading about some of the families. So that’s why I wondered. Maybe that would have been a path forward

Reminds me of some chilling video of some father mid-interview receiving news that his missing daughter was found dead and not hostage and actually being relieved about it, because he feared they'd instead torture her to death like that poor German girl (and yes I heard the supposed news she may still be alive and only in critical condition - and fuck me, I'm not sure if to be happy or sad about it, given what she went through).

That was just insane.

[Draco-Onis]

One or two people... after years. We're talking about 100+ hostages here that are scattered around Gaza, held by different groups.
Again, fantastical thinking.

Nevermind that Israel was just a target of a massive terrorist attack. They're going to want to eliminate Hamas from being able to do something like that again asap. Which is completely reasonable. This isn't a usual hostage situation.

Hamas has no qualms about killing innocent people, they obviously took hostages to use as leverage giving up on them is not the same as saying they are already dead.

[Doctor Amadeus]

You are welcome.

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Reminds me of some chilling video of some father mid-interview receiving news that his missing daughter was found dead and not hostage and actually being relieved about it, because he feared they'd instead torture her to death like that poor German girl (and yes I heard the supposed news she may still be alive and only in critical condition - and fuck me, I'm not sure if to be happy or sad about it, given what she went through).

That was just insane.

Brings me back to the mid 80’s just barely understanding what was going on in that region.

I say that because now days when I hear people speak on either side of this issue the concept that just really is never appreciated is just how much people really can hate each other despite the optics at different times.

It’s deep so when it comes to divorcing our fiction from reality on many issues.

When it came to hostages I had no clue. I seen the reports and some families, some girls mom.

I just thought wow that many possible hostages.

That’s why I said sobering when it came to your response.

I think it’s hard to guess what is going to happen next.

I’m just reading Egypt is not going to take in anyone from Gaza and something, something about Jordan.

The only other direction I can think is Iran. Could they be allowed to be evacuated women and children maybe.

[zorkuus]

Hamas has no qualms about killing innocent people, they obviously took hostages to use as leverage

You sweet summer child. Do you know why sick fucks like these take mostly young women and girls? This isn't a difficult riddle. You can do it.

Most of those girls are never going to see the light of day, no matter what.

[DarkAmbient]

I wonder if Israel is going to relent on the 24 hour evacuation deadline. The UN says it's "impossible" without causing "devastating humanitarian consequences". The US just said it's a "tall order". For the US to say that publicly it means they've almost certainly had stronger words privately.

Hamas have asked the locals to stay at home instead of evacuating, because of course a high death toll is good for their PR.

[zorkuus]

Hamas have asked the locals to stay at home instead of evacuating, because of course a high death toll is good for their PR.

Well not only that. The cowards wouldn't want to lose their human shields.

[Draco-Onis]

You sweet summer child. Do you know why sick fucks like these take mostly young women and girls? This isn't a difficult riddle. You can do it.

Most of those girls are never going to see the light of day, no matter what.

Whatever you tell yourself to feel better about the Israeli government not trying. They have made several demands non starters but that's how this thing starts where people talk and come to terms. This isn't a difficult riddle. You can do it.

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I wonder if Israel is going to relent on the 24 hour evacuation deadline. The UN says it's "impossible" without causing "devastating humanitarian consequences". The US just said it's a "tall order". For the US to say that publicly it means they've almost certainly had stronger words privately.

Hamas have asked the locals to stay at home instead of evacuating, because of course a high death toll is good for their PR.

What Hamas asked is irrelevant, there's no way logistically to evacuate that many people while bombs are being dropped in that amount of time. Israel's deadline was never mean to be serious, it's a PR move for the carnage to come.