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  1. #521
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    The staggering amount of people preposterously arguing that they are entitled to share of someone else's work
    Riddle me this: if I already have a million dollars, spend half an hour to set up an account and buy some S&P 500 ETF, which will easily net me $30.000 after a year. Who exactly did work for these $30k? Was it the half hour I spent clicking through terms and conditions and wiring the money? Or rather the hard working minimum wage slaves in all the companies my ETF covers?

  2. #522
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Riddle me this: if I already have a million dollars, spend half an hour to set up an account and buy some S&P 500 ETF, which will easily net me $30.000 after a year. Who exactly did work for these $30k? Was it the half hour I spent clicking through terms and conditions and wiring the money? Or rather the hard working minimum wage slaves in all the companies my ETF covers?
    Unless you are a stockbroker operating that million on wage slaves' behalf, I'm afraid the fruits of your insightful investment is entirely yours.

    Of course you can take a ride down the skid row and throw some money at poor people if you feel guilty for earning more than them, just don't make everyone do the same thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    I promise he's not currently, and never was, the only one in his company that works hard.
    And I never said so either
    Lives matter

  3. #523
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Yes, every single dollar he has now is a result of the enormous initial effort he put in. Of course, now when the business is up and running it might seem running on its own, but even considering this a truth, none of this would be functioning without the massive amount of work he and others invested at the very beginning of it
    Actually no.
    He came from privilege and was supported by outsiders:
    Jeff Bezos was already well off before he started Amazon (worth several hundred k),
    and when his company was about to go bust in 1995 his parents invested anoterh ~250.000 $ into his company to stay afloat.
    Since then he has used every loophole in the tax code to avoid paying taxes as much as possible,
    invested millions in union busting to keep his workers poor,
    lobbied every politician he could think of to get goverment contracts,
    even got a personaly tailored bail-out thanks to bribed/lobbied politicians:


    So no, not his hard work.

    Unless you want to say that people should cheat, lie and bribe their way to success.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  4. #524
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Actually no.
    He came from privilege
    Jeff Bezos was already well off before he started Amazon (worth several hundred k)
    Before he started Amazon he worked in several other companies as an employee and earnt these money. He didn't miraculously find them on the roadside on his way to start Amazon. Earnt money are not privilege.

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    was supported by outsiders:
    when his company was about to go bust in 1995 his parents invested another ~250.000 $ into his company to stay afloat.
    One's own family are not outsiders. If you consider your own family outsiders I can only feel bad and sad for you. Also as you stated earlier he already had more money than they gave him before he started Amazon and there'a a high chance he was also providing to his family before the company experienced economical difficulties. If helping one's own son sounds like nothing to you, consider this returning a favour
    Last edited by Yadryonych; 2021-05-29 at 11:27 AM.
    Lives matter

  5. #525
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    One's own family are not outsiders. If you consider your own family outsiders I can only feel bad and sad for you. Also as you stated earlier he already had more money than they gave him before he started Amazon and there'a a high chance he was also providing to his family before the company experienced economical difficulties. If helping one's own son sounds like nothing to you, consider this returning a favour
    this is the general problem of whole western/norther world - the loss of familly connections and basicly treating your own family kinda like enemy

    best example ? all the nonsense of "if you are grown up you should imidiately move out - the sooner the better " - instead saving a lot of money to buy their own apartments much faster people very often move out too soon and then are forced to rent / spend much money on utility etc etc

    family was always one of most important factor in people prospering well - sadly due to mass media poor people make very poor choices of moving out because they want to blindly copy their more wealthy friends and fell into trap of renting instead owning property .

    its huge problem imo as really a lot of them dont really need to move out that fast .

    east is completly different in this regard and its starting to show more and more effects.

  6. #526
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before he started Amazon he worked in several other companies as an employee and earnt these money. He didn't miraculously find them on the roadside on his way to start Amazon. Earnt money are not privilege.

    One's own family are not outsiders. If you consider your own family outsiders I can only feel bad and sad for you. Also as you stated earlier he already had more money than they gave him before he started Amazon and there'a a high chance he was also providing to his family before the company experienced economical difficulties. If helping one's own son sounds like nothing to you, consider this returning a favour
    Having parents that get you an education worth tens of thousands is quite the privilege. Princeton is not a cheap university.
    And don't forget that they gave him a loan of $245,573 when his company was about to go bankrupt. How many families can do that?
    So no, he did not earn it as you said 'every single dollar he has now is a result of the enormous initial effort he put in'.
    He got quite a lot of help without he would not be were he is now.

    I do not decry his family helping him. But it debunks the myth of him being a self-made billionaire or that everybody can do it if he/she tries hard enough or that the secret to success is hard work. Family ties and money are what got him where he is now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  7. #527
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Princeton is not a cheap university.
    So true, good thing he was a national merit scholar, that helped a lot

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Having parents that get you an education
    ...is not a privilege. It's basic parents' responsibility to bring their child up properly and provide it with best education they could. Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing. Of course not everyone could reach the ivy league, but as you could snarkily note, most of rich people's wealth is work of more than one generation
    Lives matter

  8. #528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    ...is not a privilege.
    Unless it's something that's available to everyone by default, it's a privilege. Y'all really seem to have problems with the meaning of words.

    Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing.
    Having responsible parents with the means and time to socially advance you to ultra-rich status is not the norm, sweaty.

  9. #529
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    And I never said so either
    But you implied that because of his hard work, he deserved every dollar he earned, when in reality it wasn't JUST him working hard it was him and a veritable army of other folks who were earning FAR FAAAAR less than him, while working just as hard, if not harder, than he was.

    So, what about everyone else within Amazon that also works just as hard as him? Where's their billion dollars?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    Before he started Amazon he worked in several other companies as an employee and earnt these money. He didn't miraculously find them on the roadside on his way to start Amazon. Earnt money are not privilege.
    The money you earned is not privilege no, but the luxury of being able to save far more of the money you earn because you come from a wealthy, or relatively well off family who helps pay for things so you CAN save....that IS privilege.

    I have a co-worker who brags he was able to buy his first house, in Southern California, at 25. He leaves out the part that the only reason he had enough money to do that was because he lived at one of his parents rental properties rent and utility free, only having to pay for his own food. Even then only when his parents weren't there, which was not that often. THAT'S privilege.

  10. #530
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    But you implied that because of his hard work, he deserved every dollar he earned, when in reality it wasn't JUST him working hard it was him and a veritable army of other folks who were earning FAR FAAAAR less than him, while working just as hard, if not harder, than he was.

    So, what about everyone else within Amazon that also works just as hard as him? Where's their billion dollars?
    where are their rest rooms, it's so absurd this conversation is going on when that meme about the productivity cages are almost real over at Amazon.

  11. #531
    Quote Originally Posted by Yadryonych View Post
    ...is not a privilege. It's basic parents' responsibility to bring their child up properly and provide it with best education they could. Having responsible parents is not a privilege, it's normal thing.
    Having parents that can pay for that kind of education is a privilege though. Being able to pick and choose basically whatever university will accept you, regardless of cost, is a huge privilege.

    Of course not everyone could reach the ivy league, but as you could snarkily note, most of rich people's wealth is work of more than one generation
    And coming from a family like that IS privilege. Doesn't mean it's unearned, or undeserved, but it IS privilege.

  12. #532
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    The money you earned is not privilege no, but the luxury of being able to save far more of the money you earn because you come from a wealthy, or relatively well off family who helps pay for things so you CAN save....that IS privilege.

    I have a co-worker who brags he was able to buy his first house, in Southern California, at 25. He leaves out the part that the only reason he had enough money to do that was because he lived at one of his parents rental properties rent and utility free, only having to pay for his own food. Even then only when his parents weren't there, which was not that often. THAT'S privilege.
    There's also the weird re-definition of what "earned" means.

    Having a slip of paper in your safety deposit box while you sit on your couch playing X-box and making hundreds of thousands of dollars because of that slip, they consider that "earning" that money.

    But a minimum-wage worker flipping burgers who wants $15 instead of $7.25/hour, that has to be stopped, because they haven't "earned" that wage bump.

    Also, the concept of "privilege" is not really that complicated. It speaks to any benefit you enjoyed that not everyone could rely upon. Everyone has some form of "privilege". It isn't a scoring system, it's about recognizing the advantages you lucked into. The quadraplegic black guy who grew up with a single mom in a bad neighbourhood enjoyed the privilege of being cisgender and straight, and not facing the potential social backlash for being LGBT in some way or another. That doesn't mean he's automatically "less privileged" than a gay person; that isn't how this concept works. Because, again, it's not a scoring system. Just the recognition of various challenges you did not have to face, which others may have had to struggle to overcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    And coming from a family like that IS privilege. Doesn't mean it's unearned, or undeserved, but it IS privilege.
    Just to underscore;

    The idea of "privilege" is not to condemn those who enjoyed privilege, or benefited from it. It's just to ask you to recognize that benefit, rather than condemning others for failing to leap a hurdle that you've literally never had to jump over.

  13. #533
    Quote Originally Posted by Winter Blossom View Post

    And even if they do get the state minimum wage, it’s often not enough to survive on, especially if they’re living in a city.
    And, of course, I live on a nice 5-digit wage here in the Midwest, but to live as well in Boston or NYC, I'd have to make six digits to keep up my standard of living.

    (I'm nowhere near minimum wage, so I can't comment on that. Almost no one pays minimum wage here anyway, even Mickey D's. Also, I work for a bank, so that very nice income from fees for writing said PPP loans is good for my income. I'm IT, not loans, so I don't get a commission, but there will be bonuses and raises...)

  14. #534
    OH LOOK MORE "HANDOUTS"

    oh gee what a shock, taxpayers/workers paying for unemployment when its supposed to be paid for by companies. Business won't even be required to pay additional taxes like they normally do to beef back up the funds.

    $$ that was supposed to go to help workers and people.


    States tap federal aid to shore up empty unemployment funds
    Businesses could be spared billions of dollars of higher taxes in coming years as a result of federal coronavirus funds flowing to the states

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wire...funds-77942989

    Businesses could be spared billions of dollars of higher taxes in coming years
    Buh Byeeeeeeeeeeee !!

  15. #535
    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    A phone yes the company should pay for it. Expecting you to have internet these days though, is not a far cry. That said, if you don't, in-office positions are available (in my case)
    I work from home, and I've had the same internet for 10 years now. The work phone is supplied by my work, though. It's just a softphone app on my computer when I need it, or on my cellphone when I need it, and I could have a physical 'work phone' if I wanted one, but I don't, and I'm fine with that.

    However, I'm not a tied-to-my-phone or tied-to-the-timeclock wage slave, either, so my situation may not be what people are thinking of anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's honestly amazing how few supposed capitalists actually understand what capitalist economics even is.

    Literally the entire point of capitalism as economic theory is that work should not determine wealth, ownership of the means of production should, by exploiting those who do work.

    Particularly silly when they accuse me of wanting people to not enjoy the fruits of their own labor, when I'm the guy arguing for a worker-owned-collectives model of ownership for the means of production.
    Of course, the 'worker-owned means of production' sounds great, but history shows that almost all of the time it ends up worse and more corrupted than the present situation. The concept never makes it through reality, for whatever reason.

  16. #536
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Of course, the 'worker-owned means of production' sounds great, but history shows that almost all of the time it ends up worse and more corrupted than the present situation. The concept never makes it through reality, for whatever reason.
    It's never been tried, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

    If you mean Stalinist communism or the other forms that derived from it, that's closer to capitalism than it is to what I'm talking about.

  17. #537
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's never been tried, so I really don't know what you're talking about.

    If you mean Stalinist communism or the other forms that derived from it, that's closer to capitalism than it is to what I'm talking about.
    Usually, 'worker-owned means of production' is usually Marxism, so, yes that's what I was talking about. It never works out the way it's written. But, if you have your own cool idea good luck with it. Not personally attacking you about it. Human beings usually find a way to corrupt most utopian concepts to their own advantage, given a chance.

    EDIT: To be clear, I wish you luck, but I'll believe it actually working out the way you think when I see it.

  18. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    Usually, 'worker-owned means of production' is usually Marxism
    It isn't.

    Moreover, Stalinism is not Marxism regardless of how bad your knowledge of history and political science is. Joseph McCarthy died in 1957 and I'll kindly ask you to leave his nonsense in the ground with him.

  19. #539
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    It isn't.

    Moreover, Stalinism is not Marxism regardless of how bad your knowledge of history and political science is. Joseph McCarthy died in 1957 and I'll kindly ask you to leave his nonsense in the ground with him.
    That's all well and good, but if your point is that 'Marxism works if not corrupted', that's all well and good, but, show me the working in-real-life, uncorrupted example first. If that wasn't your point, let me know what it was, or let it go.

    McCarthy is pretty much ignored in my studies of history, too. As he should be. I have far more knowledge of history than most on this forum show.

  20. #540
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    Quote Originally Posted by agm114r View Post
    That's all well and good, but if your point is that 'Marxism works if not corrupted'
    No, my point is that what Endus was describing wasn't Marxism and that you have a warped conception of it regardless.

    McCarthy is pretty much ignored in my studies of history, too.
    And you're repeating his errors as a result.

    Love that for you.

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