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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    and yet everyday new businesses start - many of them succeds . many fail - but still people with ambition and rich parents who give them the money to try to achieve something in their lives
    fixed that for you.

    and if it's not rich parents just giving them money, it's parents with connections and lineage that get them financial advantages not available to most people.
    the myth in the US of somebody born poor and raised poor who magically farts their way into millions is just that - a myth.
    like most myths it's rooted in some vague and incredibly rare circumstance where maybe 0.00000001% of the population manages to pull that off, but it's not something to base policy around.

  2. #802
    Quote Originally Posted by Malkiah View Post
    fixed that for you.

    and if it's not rich parents just giving them money, it's parents with connections and lineage that get them financial advantages not available to most people.
    the myth in the US of somebody born poor and raised poor who magically farts their way into millions is just that - a myth.
    like most myths it's rooted in some vague and incredibly rare circumstance where maybe 0.00000001% of the population manages to pull that off, but it's not something to base policy around.
    thats just excuse - very comfortable one.

    with access to free eduaction and shoclarships for Universities its up to kids this day what they will achieve..

    do rich people have it easier ? sure - but there is plenty of successfull people who started with nothing and achived a lot in their lives.

    did they became people who own multi milion $ businesses ? sure they didnt - but again you dont need to be multimilionaire to feel secure and happy in your life.

    all you need is minimal amount of effort put into learning and your work . sadly most people dont want to put even minimal effort - they prefer to complain how unfair life is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Ok, so how do i:
    get adopted by a rich family that pays for my education at a top university?
    Then get a job at Intel, Bell Labs and others to earn 6 figures at a hedge fund?
    and then get more than 20 family members and friends to invest around another 700k into my business?

    Hard work helped, but without his families money he would not be where he is now.
    you dont need to have rich parents in order to get job in Intel though . in this 1 statement you just openly offended what tens of thousnads of people who work there and who come from poor backgrounds.

    about family help - thats how each family should behave. thats also actually how my parents got money to buy their first partment back in the day (as they both came from relatively poor homes) - by borrowing X or Y amount of money from multiple relatives to not pay to big interest / not take to big loan from bank .

    family is supposed to help each other - its a shame in modern world in western/northers world those family ties are much weaker then even 50 years ago .
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-06-10 at 11:06 AM.

  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats just excuse - very comfortable one.
    This is the US that you're so clearly ignorant about. Move out of your socialist country and come here to live. You won't last a month before running back.

  4. #804
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    you dont need to have rich parents in order to get job in Intel though . in this 1 statement you just openly offended what tens of thousnads of people who work there and who come from poor backgrounds.

    about family help - thats how each family should behave. thats also actually how my parents got money to buy their first partment back in the day (as they both came from relatively poor homes) - by borrowing X or Y amount of money from multiple relatives to not pay to big interest / not take to big loan from bank .

    family is supposed to help each other - its a shame in modern world in western/northers world those family ties are much weaker then even 50 years ago .
    A family that finances your time to get 2 degrees from a high-class university IS a bit leg up to get a (better paying) job at those companies. Without it he would either not gotten such well paying jobs and/or would have needed more years at those jobs to rise up in the ranks.
    To remind you, about 2/3 of the workers in the US only have a high school degree at best.

    And the bolded part is your own admittance that he had quote a lot of help, and financial backing that is not accessible to millions of Americans.

    As for the last sentence: After 40 years of stagnating wages, rising competition with cheaply imported goods and labourers families have far less ressources to share with each other, and not a lack of family ties. The middle class has been shrinking for decades, they can't help each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    I'm fine with a mafia. Of course, the mafia families often worked with independent third parties in order to maintain relations.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats just excuse - very comfortable one.
    you've confused "excuse" with "rational observation about reality"

    with access to free eduaction and shoclarships for Universities its up to kids this day what they will achieve..
    firstly this is an absolute fallacy on its face, because even having an education is not in any way necessarily connected to success or achievement.
    it's not like you get a bachelor's degree and somebody just hands you a pile of money, there are regional economics to consider as well as the opportunities present in the area, not to even get into the issue of the greater marketplace climate and one's individual predilection towards the required mindset for that sort of thing.

    but, all of this is a completely irrelevant smokescreen that is just trying to move the goal posts, it's the economic equivalent of the "when does life begin" debate - it's a pointless aside with no real bearing on the actual issue.
    the actual issue is simple: there exists sufficient available resources to hand every living human in the US at least a moderately comfortable first world existence with basically no downside, and thus the only conceivable argument against doing so is one of pure psychopathy.

    do rich people have it easier ? sure - but there is plenty of successfull people who started with nothing and achived a lot in their lives.
    demonstrate how or why 'achievement' is something that should be aspired to in the first place.
    Last edited by Malkiah; 2021-06-10 at 12:57 PM.

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    i dont. but i do own my small consulting business that brings me decent profits on top of having normal job and having mutliple investments that also bring me nice passive profits + i sometimes do weekend lectures on local University

    you dont need multi milion $ company to feel secure and happy in life.
    No one said you needed a multi-million dollar company to be happy. You just said anyone could get as big as Amazon. Why isn't your company as big as Amazon? What's keeping you "small?"

    Is it lack of effort or lack of resources? Or both?

  7. #807
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    thats just excuse - very comfortable one.

    with access to free eduaction and shoclarships for Universities its up to kids this day what they will achieve..
    You're answering the wrong question.

    You're answering the question of "can anyone make it on their own in the world today?"

    The real question is "can everyone, simultaneously with everyone else, make it on their own in the world today?"

    Once you phrase it properly, it becomes obvious why things like scholarships and grants can't possibly actually resolve the question.

    If the system doesn't work for everyone, then it's picking winners and losers, and you can't point to the winners and claim that there are no losers.


  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    A family that finances your time to get 2 degrees from a high-class university IS a bit leg up to get a (better paying) job at those companies. Without it he would either not gotten such well paying jobs and/or would have needed more years at those jobs to rise up in the ranks.
    To remind you, about 2/3 of the workers in the US only have a high school degree at best.

    And the bolded part is your own admittance that he had quote a lot of help, and financial backing that is not accessible to millions of Americans.

    As for the last sentence: After 40 years of stagnating wages, rising competition with cheaply imported goods and labourers families have far less ressources to share with each other, and not a lack of family ties. The middle class has been shrinking for decades, they can't help each other.
    a) scholarships exist

    b) milions of americans dont have families ? or maybe its effect of decades of degradation of family values and ties connected with very "easy" approach to divorces ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    No one said you needed a multi-million dollar company to be happy. You just said anyone could get as big as Amazon. Why isn't your company as big as Amazon? What's keeping you "small?"

    Is it lack of effort or lack of resources? Or both?
    oh definetly lack of effort - and lack of will to put in more time into it .

    for me its very simple - in order to grow it i would have to leave my comfy job that i enjoy - not worth it even if it in theory could bring me more money .

    and again - why do you need to be "as big as amazon " to be happy ? noobdy still answered this - because the answer could lead to very uncomfortable thoughts

  9. #809
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    a) scholarships exist
    And are very limited and highly competitive, and often times can fall through should there be issues with funding etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    b) milions of americans dont have families ? or maybe its effect of decades of degradation of family values and ties connected with very "easy" approach to divorces ?
    Families with money to help them pay for school and shit? No, actually, haven't you seen the extensive reporting on how many Americans can't even afford a surprise $1K or even $400 expense?

    "Family values" has nothing whatsoever to do with this subject so I haven't the foggiest clue why you'd bring that silly strawman up.

  10. #810
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    Bring on the robots, bring on UBI

  11. #811
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    oh definetly lack of effort - and lack of will to put in more time into it .

    for me its very simple - in order to grow it i would have to leave my comfy job that i enjoy - not worth it even if it in theory could bring me more money .

    and again - why do you need to be "as big as amazon " to be happy ? noobdy still answered this - because the answer could lead to very uncomfortable thoughts
    Dude, no one is saying you need to be as big as Amazon, you're the one who brought it up and said anyone could make a business and be as big as Amazon if they wanted to.

    I also think you're still delusional if you actually think that.

  12. #812
    In the big picture of life, maybe it was a positive that the pandemic and hitting the pause button on the world for a year+ caused a lot of people to re-evaluate their lives. It's easy to live life on autopilot and just be comfortable. But it's a good thing for people to grow. It's easy to fall into the trap of living life like Groundhog Day, day after day the same, and you'll wake up and 30 years of your life will have passed by before you know it. So maybe that's one positive out of all this. There were many people that were stuck in dead-end jobs where they were miserable and felt like changing jobs would be too difficult. This helped push a lot of people in that situation to do something about it; go find that job they really wanted, change careers, go back to school to get the job they want. Naturally that creates a lot of backfill for those miserable jobs that were vacated. And companies hiring is a good thing.

  13. #813
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post

    Families with money to help them pay for school and shit? No, actually, haven't you seen the extensive reporting on how many Americans can't even afford a surprise $1K or even $400 expense?

    "Family values" has nothing whatsoever to do with this subject so I haven't the foggiest clue why you'd bring that silly strawman up.
    a) seems to me like its time for some more unfortunate US citizens to emigrate to better developed countries - and no its not sarcasm - its a simple solution to aparent problem .

    b)maybe i used wrong words. but what i meant is how strong the bond in families are. - wealth historycaly was always accumulated over many generations - but in last 100 years due to crazy high rates of divorces this natural bonds started to get shattered. this trend is very dangerous for the level of life that people want to live on. what i mean by that ? simple - in stable family life is much easier - and with bonds developed over geenrations different "branches of family tree" easily can help each other so all of them can live a better easier life. this is dying out in west - but in east its still going very strong - thats why west is slowly but surely loosing to east.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by docterfreeze View Post
    Bring on the robots,
    its already happening - problem is its still crazy expensive for poor countries/branches of business. "bio robots" are still way cheaper for complicated manual 3D operations - unless someone has very few variations products but producing stuff in very very high volumes .

    its not even a problem to buy those machines as they can always take loans - main problem for most companies is that someone has to effectively re-program them each time different designes/products are produced on the line - and there is very very few specialists in those fields so they are crazy expansive and usually atm programing of those "robots" is done by the very companies which deliver "robots"

    if you count all cost - its much cheaper to use humans
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2021-06-11 at 08:48 AM.

  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    a) seems to me like its time for some more unfortunate US citizens to emigrate to better developed countries - and no its not sarcasm - its a simple solution to aparent problem .
    Wrong, that is not a simple solution.

    if you count all cost - its much cheaper to use humans
    Wrong.
    Last edited by szechuan; 2021-06-11 at 01:30 PM.
    Americans are the Chinese of the west. The main reason people tolerate them is because they are too big to ignore.

    "Admit nothing, deny everything, launch counterattack." - Roger Stone (Trump's Friend, Ally, and Campaign Advisor)

  15. #815
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    a) seems to me like its time for some more unfortunate US citizens to emigrate to better developed countries - and no its not sarcasm - its a simple solution to aparent problem .
    With what money? How are they going to afford to literally pick up and move to another country if they can barely afford to live here?

    if you count all cost - its much cheaper to use humans
    HIGHLY dependent on the product they're making, so, this is not always true.

  16. #816
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    but in last 100 years due to crazy high rates of divorces
    This is not in any way, shape, or form the cause of this and I honestly haven't the foggiest clue where you even heard such absolute nonsense.

    You realize that even if parents divorce after having kids, they usually still leave their assets to their children, right? Divorced parents wealth doesn't like, suddenly disappear and not get passed down, and there's not a lick of data I've seen to suggest such a nonsense notion.

  17. #817
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    b)maybe i used wrong words. but what i meant is how strong the bond in families are. - wealth historycaly was always accumulated over many generations - but in last 100 years due to crazy high rates of divorces this natural bonds started to get shattered.
    There is literally nothing about divorce that would lead to a reduction of inheritance. It's the same two parents and the same number of children.

    Plus, if you've got an issue with divorce rates, you have an issue with personal liberties and, particularly, with women not being subservient and reliant on support by a man, even in cases where said man is violently abusive towards them. You're arguing for a return to social mores akin to those of Saudi Arabia today. Fuck that noise.

    this trend is very dangerous for the level of life that people want to live on. what i mean by that ? simple - in stable family life is much easier - and with bonds developed over geenrations different "branches of family tree" easily can help each other so all of them can live a better easier life. this is dying out in west - but in east its still going very strong - thats why west is slowly but surely loosing to east.
    This is in no way occurring. You're making shit up.


  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Plus, if you've got an issue with divorce rates, you have an issue with personal liberties and, particularly, with women not being subservient and reliant on support by a man, even in cases where said man is violently abusive towards them. You're arguing for a return to social mores akin to those of Saudi Arabia today. Fuck that noise.
    Not trying to derail, but there are more reasons to get a divorce than just women not being subservient to men, etc...

    Anecdotal I know, but I've known at least 4 people/couples in my life to get a divorce and it had absolutely nothing to do with this. It was entirely due to them being incompatible, not a good couple, immature people who got into it too early and ended it because they were mutually unhappy.

    OT: 1000% agree that the argument they're using is complete nonsense.

  19. #819
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Not trying to derail, but there are more reasons to get a divorce than just women not being subservient to men, etc...

    Anecdotal I know, but I've known at least 4 people/couples in my life to get a divorce and it had absolutely nothing to do with this. It was entirely due to them being incompatible, not a good couple, immature people who got into it too early and ended it because they were mutually unhappy.

    OT: 1000% agree that the argument they're using is complete nonsense.
    I'm divorced, and it wasn't because my wife wasn't subservient enough.

    My point wasn't that you only see divorce for that reason, it's that people who complain that divorce rates are "a bad thing" at all, that's the root of their position; that women should not have the capacity to leave abusive men.

    I'm totally supportive of divorce, precisely because I know how many good reasons there are for it (having lived through the ordeal, myself).


  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    This is not in any way, shape, or form the cause of this and I honestly haven't the foggiest clue where you even heard such absolute nonsense.

    You realize that even if parents divorce after having kids, they usually still leave their assets to their children, right? Divorced parents wealth doesn't like, suddenly disappear and not get passed down, and there's not a lick of data I've seen to suggest such a nonsense notion.
    people who divorce usually re-marry - diluting the wealth accumulated by themselves and previous generations instead acummulating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    This is in no way occurring. You're making shit up.
    some of you people live in your own world ignoring whole history of human civilisation

    i mean - its must be nice being so oblivious to facts but this makes your opinions completly meaningless.

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