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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    Feral is actually good.

    And all those classes can host their own keys. Plus, they all have a busted spec, they just need to switch to it.
    So accessibility = play your own keys regardless if the dungeon you have drops anything for you, as well as disregard which spec is fun for you, switch to the meta? I find both things extremely weak.

    Maybe if you could switch your keys to the dungeon of your choice, be it with a penalty like -1 level for a switch, I would consider them accessible again. But as things stand right now, M+ isn't easily accessible for classes outside of meta. As a matter of fact you might end up sitting in a city for 60+ minutes looking for the right key and group that is willing to take you.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by aceperson View Post
    why do you even enter conversations if you don't bother to read? you clearly read one line, came up with a "rebuttal" that is both asinine and hyperbolic, and just declared yourself right. I know you didn't read past the first sentence because if you did, you would've realized that I said the exact same thing you started with. so good job making yourself out to be a fool.
    You said that killing Denathrius is no longer special because everyone can do so in LFR, aka more elitist QQ about casuals finally getting to see the inside of a raid without your kind gatekeeping them outside, which is where they belong /s

    Man, looks like we're back in WotLK, you guys could at least change your speech to not make it so obviously biased - and no, you didn't say the same than me, not in the slightest. But I guess you can't bother to reread what you just wrote.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    As a matter of fact you might end up sitting in a city for 60+ minutes looking for the right key and group that is willing to take you.
    And retail fanboys have the gall of decrying Classic for this very reason, go figure
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    As for the "hone your skills" argument that some are tossing around, fuck that. Most people want to have fun. They're not logging onto WoW, the video game, as a self-improvement project. That's a ridiculous notion and goes right along with the idea that the game is "work." If it's not 'play' then you're doing it wrong. Sadly this is a concept that the devs seem to have lost sight of in their quest to keep anyone and everyone busy.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The OP also has a thread asking for an expansion of only dungeon and raid content. Evidently eliminating every other form of content isn't "diminishing the experience of non competitive players"
    Oh good someone else said it. I was confused as all hell when I saw who OP was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    And retail fanboys have the gall of decrying Classic for this very reason, go figure
    I've never played Classic and it also doesn't interest me as much. In general I am not a big fan of going back 20 years in time to play games with subpar technical mechanics and interactions.

    My only complaint about the key system would be your inability to switch the dungeon keys. Played my own keys a few times now, ended up going from one useless dungeon to another one. The only roundabout way here is to !keys the guild and check what they have, then beg one of the right ones to come with you. I am not touching random groups even with a stick if I cannot build my own group.

  5. #65
    Do you get promoted at work for being the laziest least effort person?

    Hopefully not. I don't have time has never been a valid excuse for anyone. You can make time for anything. Weightloss. Hobbies. Family. Ect.

    Man up or get pushed out.

    That said blizz listens to both crowds and thats why we have a mmorpg with hardly any rpg elements now and everything is either stupid easy or requires a dumb amount of time investment.

    I'd rather swap back to the "not everyone gets to see everything" type of game play where the more you put in the more you can do/see.
    Instead of these different modes that just suck. It breeds people who just suck forever and try hards.
    Last edited by DuskSP; 2021-05-14 at 02:28 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson Spears View Post
    I noticed this trend over a few topics now. Why do players only consider something an issue when it effects raiders and high end players like mythic+ and gladiators?

    Why is it when it comes to destroying the progression of a player doing heroic dungeons moving onto mythic is it seen as something that has zero value? I constantly see requests and at times celebration when systems are made to undermine low level progression in favor of simply letting people grind repetitive content. Is this just a case of " Its always been this way"?

    Why is the start of the game seen as something that is entirely free to bypass and ruin the progression of the larger playerbase?
    It is better to cater to players that are actually playing the game. The competitive and perma-subbed players are what keeps this game alive. I'd also argue that by now the WoW playerbase consists mostly of this kind of players. Ultra casual players that would progress through heroic dungeons and mythic+0 dungeons are almost non-existant. There is little gain from catering to them.

  7. #67
    Some people here comparing "video game skill" with IQ for some reason, and they are NOT related.

    It's not enough that you consider yourself 'elite' at a video game, you have to also try and translate that into your real life flexing? Yea, no.

    I bet Dr Steven Hawking never played a video game in his life.
    If we could all sit and talk without demonizing one another and attempt to understand the opposite point of view, the collective world would be a better place. Mental bigotry is the worst of all.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriani View Post
    I've always been of the mind that "competitive" content should be the "instant gratification" route, or at least the fastest way to progress your character. On the flip side I feel that "non-competitive" content, content that doesn't require you to be the best of the best, or even particularly good, should be the "slow and steady" route, where time invested will eventually get you the same ( or close to it) progress for your character as those who take the "competitive" route. Two ways to reach the same destination.

    FFXIV does this through its tomestone currency which allows players to get gear comparable (or at least very close) to the end game raid gear. You won't get it nearly as fast, but it's a deterministic reward that fairly close to that which the cutting edge players can get as far as player power goes. It also seems WoW is coming close to embracing that with how world content (with enough time invested) will be able to reach ilvl 237 vs the 239 that heroic raiders can get. Obviously mythic raiders will still have a notable advantage but it's certain progress compared to how things tended to be before.

    The nice thing about "slow and steady" deterministic rewards is that even the competitive players can take advantage of them if they want to invest the time. That, of course, leads to some players feeling like they "have to" invest that time, but the truth is they really don't. If they only want to raid log, they can do that. They could also supplement their raid gear acquisition with Mythic+ for another avenue of "competitive" advancement. The "slow and steady" route being comparable (or at least in view) to the higher end of gear progression is a good thing IMO.

    All that's left is for crafting to be brought up to snuff. In FFXIV, crafting can get you a set of gear that's easily worthwhile to use as entry level endgame gear. At it's best (as in the final content patch of the current expansion), the crafted gear can reach ilvl 520 which is the same ilvl as the base tomestone gear. The tomestone gear can be upgraded to 530 with additional time investment so it has greater potential but the crafted gear is still very good. For comparison, the raid gear drops at ilvl 530 for armor and 535 for weapons.

    FFXIV also has "relic" weapons which are most of the expansion long time investments resulting in a weapon that grows in power throughout the life of the expansion so long as time is invested into it (as each relic weapon content stage is added). Relic weapons are nearly always a step behind raid weapons through out an expansion, but typically on par, or just below, raid weapons by the very end of an expansion's life, giving non-raiders an avenue for comparable weaponry via questing/grind elements, if they prefer that to raiding or getting tomestone weapons.
    I agree entirely with this. The concepts here are sound and I am glad WoW is moving this direction (even if slowly).

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by neocount View Post
    I agree entirely with this. The concepts here are sound and I am glad WoW is moving this direction (even if slowly).
    so aka everyone gets first place? That's terrible design.
    Were sorry you don't want to invest effort/time. (really not hard if you actually want too.) which majority of bad players don't.
    So here's your cookie just slightly slower bud so you don't feel left out.

    I don't do mythic raiding and only been 2300 in mop but I would be pissed if they started giving out glad rewards and mythic raid gear to other players.

    What your suggesting is very poor design.

    There's a reason classic wow leveling blows shadowlands leveling outta the water. There's no fancy cutscenes, not on a giant grand quest. none of this fancy bs. Just wacking rats with my big brown stick.
    The items were great and there is alot of amazing stuff. HOWEVER the raiding sucks mechanically. The rotations are boring once optimized for raiding. New wow does do this better.

    The game needs to be moved back to a RPG and not a mmo mobile game addiction mechanic simulator.
    You get what you put in and the carrot on a stick is to get better to see more of the game. If you can't follow heroic level mechanics of natheria which are learnable in one to two tries. You should never get to see the raid. If you feel left out practice in dungeons come back with some damn effort and then you get to see.

    There is a middle ground between the two that is perfect. Not following in the footsteps of a some creepy loli furry game.
    Last edited by DuskSP; 2021-05-14 at 02:51 PM.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarez View Post
    So accessibility = play your own keys regardless if the dungeon you have drops anything for you, as well as disregard which spec is fun for you, switch to the meta? I find both things extremely weak.
    By all means tell me a game that has a balanced meta and a decent class design. Every class has a viable spec. That's good enough.

    So accessibility
    Imma stop you right there, Blizzard can't force people to invite you.

    ut as things stand right now, M+ isn't easily accessible for classes outside of meta.
    Yes it is. If you make your own key. Everyone's getting declined in the LFG at some point.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Yeah, it has. PvP adjustments have been made based on random BG performance in the past, rather than on arena performance.
    I'm sure the same issues were present in rated BGs.

  11. #71
    Non existant problem since what you are describing is not a non competitive player but a bad competitive player. The term competitive is always relative. And what I mean by that is, you are describing a situation where X player would complete normals and then work toward completing heroics but heroics are so easy to outgear that this is not happening.
    If a player actually likes the mentality of working toward completing something then it does not matter if you call the next step heroic/mythic/mythic plus or whatever. You are still working toward something.
    In a hypothetical setting that I will create lets take 2 sepparate players:
    -Player one has just finished completing normal mode of Dungeon X and is now slowly progressing through its heroic version which is challenging to them.
    -Player two has just finished completing heroic mode of Dungeon X and is now slowly progressing its mythic version which is challenging to them.

    In their respective situation both players are facing equal challenges relative to their skill level which is the only thing differing here. Is player one not just as competitive as player two?
    The fact that you outgear heroics quickly in WoW does not matter because you can then slowly progress through M+ relative to your skill level and always have a challenge to casually work towards.
    There is no such thing as a non competitive person who wants to face a challenge.

  12. #72
    This is just the daily Crimson shitpost,move along people

    He's just trying to rile people up in an attempt to get the attention and sense of accomplishment he can't get in real life

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    I'm sure the same issues were present in rated BGs.
    Nope. You see, it was about Retribution Paladins blowing people up in random BGs because those people weren't doing any of the things you can do when a Pally pops wings and comes at you (like stun or CC them and open some distance). It was also before Rateds existed, and before Pallies had any sort of a sprint so it really was about low-skilled players getting blown up because of poor situational awareness and lack of counter-play.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalisandra View Post
    Nope. You see, it was about Retribution Paladins blowing people up in random BGs because those people weren't doing any of the things you can do when a Pally pops wings and comes at you (like stun or CC them and open some distance). It was also before Rateds existed, and before Pallies had any sort of a sprint so it really was about low-skilled players getting blown up because of poor situational awareness and lack of counter-play.
    Then back when the Honor System gave rewards? In that case, calling it 'casual' is not an apt naming, because it was a way to get top tier gear.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    By all means tell me a game that has a balanced meta and a decent class design. Every class has a viable spec. That's good enough.
    WoW is quite in a good place. You can do everything the game throws at you with any class and any spec. It's the people who refuse to accept anything outside of what performs the best. I also don't see how your response has anything to do with what I wrote to be honest.

    Yes it is. If you make your own key. Everyone's getting declined in the LFG at some point.
    Don't just disregard my core point like that. It's not accessible if it's just your key. Your key often is garbage for yourself. For example, I only need the helm from Necrotic. Why would I ever want to run my own key if that isn't Necrotic? It's a complete waste of time outside of the fact that you contribute to your weekly vault, in which you can't target items. So again, it's not all that accessible. Unless of course you count going into any freaking time wasting random M+ that crosses your path.

    I don't even see a reason for why the system needs to be that restricted. What's the benefit for the player here?

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by DuskSP View Post
    so aka everyone gets first place? That's terrible design.
    Were sorry you don't want to invest effort/time. (really not hard if you actually want too.) which majority of bad players don't.
    So here's your cookie just slightly slower bud so you don't feel left out.

    I don't do mythic raiding and only been 2300 in mop but I would be pissed if they started giving out glad rewards and mythic raid gear to other players.

    What your suggesting is very poor design.

    There's a reason classic wow leveling blows shadowlands leveling outta the water. There's no fancy cutscenes, not on a giant grand quest. none of this fancy bs. Just wacking rats with my big brown stick.
    The items were great and there is alot of amazing stuff. HOWEVER the raiding sucks mechanically. The rotations are boring once optimized for raiding. New wow does do this better.

    The game needs to be moved back to a RPG and not a mmo mobile game addiction mechanic simulator.
    You get what you put in and the carrot on a stick is to get better to see more of the game. If you can't follow heroic level mechanics of natheria which are learnable in one to two tries. You should never get to see the raid. If you feel left out practice in dungeons come back with some damn effort and then you get to see.

    There is a middle ground between the two that is perfect. Not following in the footsteps of a some creepy loli furry game.
    But everyone doesn't "get first place" in this scenario. Even in the FFXIV design, competitive players (raiders) get the best gear and get it faster. It's just that the gap between the competitive route and the non-competitive route is very small as far as player power goes. The "trophies" for "first place" in FFXIV tend to be visual rather than power related. The very best of the best players in FFXIV get unique (and visually striking/glowing) weapon skins from the ultimate difficulty encounters not unlike the old challenge mode sets.

    Having every player able to reach similar player power levels, regardless of content, isn't "terrible design" in my opinion. In fact I think it's the better choice to go with if you want to retain the most players. Advancing one's character is a primary motivator to play the game, but that motivation gets cut off quickly if you don't enjoy the content avenues that provide said advancement. Having multiple routes to similar (not necessarily identical) destinations, even if some are slower than others, offers that motivation to far more people by providing multiple ways to similar ends.

    The problem with your "you get what you put in" mentality is that the options of "what" you can put in have been reduced to raid, mythic+, or pvp, and the "what" you get is miles ahead of the alternatives. Gone are the days when you could farm up rare materials to craft exceptional gear to use or sell (instead you either cant craft anything worth using at all, or you need copious amounts of bop mats and/or quest macguffins that requiring raiding before you can make anything), invest time into a long grind that resulted in worthwhile gear, or run dungeons for a currency that allowed you to purchase good gear from a vendor ala the end of TBC and throughout Wrath of the Lich King.

    Nowadays the world content is more of a side note that is hardly worth the time or effort because what it rewards ends up not being much of a reward at all as far as player power is concerned both because by the time you get it, you probably have equal or better, and because there is no advancement past that point unless you are willing and able to do the "big three" (raiding/M+/pvp). Not everyone is willing or able to do that content, but those players still want to advance their characters and Blizzard still wants their money.

    So to keep that influx of cash they need provide motivation for those players as well. Blizzard seems to be recognizing this with allowing world content players to reach 237 ilvl gear vs the 239 that heroic raiders can get. Yes Mythic Raiders will still have a significant edge, but the number of Mythic Raiders is relatively small so the aforementioned world content gear is still a move in the right direction as far as I'm concerned and it does close the power gap somewhat.

    It is a proven and successful design philosophy in FFXIV. Players who don't raid can get player power levels near to those that do... they just have to invest far more time to get it. The people with "skill" get slightly better gear at a significantly faster pace, and the plebs can get gear that's almost as good as theirs, but with a longer time investment. There's also visual differences between the gear, with the Ultimate encounters (I would liken these to Mythic raid bosses) rewarding unique and striking visual indicators of a player's prowess.

    Regardless of the content one enjoys, most players typically want their character to grow stronger. When that threshold of growth is stunted because the content you enjoy and are capable of engaging in has a hard cap. Players lose one of the primary motivators to play and the company loses subs.
    Last edited by Kyriani; 2021-05-14 at 07:02 PM.

  17. #77
    Stood in the Fire BrintoSFJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by starstationprofm View Post
    You cannot make a competitive game for the lowest denominator. It will just be 20 iq easy.
    Maybe if they tried, WoW would have a more skilled player base?
    Moderators on this site are, to put it nicely, morons. They believe any opinion contrary to popular ones are either trolling or flaming or baiting. They can not comprehend the fact that there can be people who would utterly detest what they like or million others like. Well, it is their site and their "Authoretaeh" but they are morons nonetheless.

  18. #78
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    The devs live in the USA, land of "trickle-down" economics and other practices that screw over the little guy. Few things are more American than making rules that favor the ruling class.

  19. #79
    I honestly can’t think of a single scenario in the game where this complaint is relevant, in fact more often than not I feel that it’s the total opposite.

    It sounds like the kind of complaint that caused the game to drift away from its original design philosophy in early WoW.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Hey There Guys its Metro View Post
    This problem doesn't exist. Its a fallacy thought up by players who wish they were more successful than they are, perhaps to help them cope with that gap?

    A "non-competitive player" is not seeking difficulty at all. They are not seeking competition or progression, by definition.
    They simply play for fun and that's where it ends.

    Instead, what you are describing is an (extremely?) unsuccessful competitive player.
    If you are pursuing progression and climbing the difficulty curve at any level, you are competitive.
    Just like an amateur sports practitioner is competing in their local whatever.
    Competition is not only professionals.

    So to answer your question:

    Because it is for non-competitive players.
    Its goals are to get you hooked by the game and potentially turn you into a competitive player and encourage you to pursue progression.
    I disagree. Progression and competition are 2 completely unrelated things. You can progress through most of the game without ever competing with another player.

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