KGB Hijacks Flight to Arrest Journalist.

[Slant]

Of course this is fast moving and the EU upped the ante since that now historical post of mine you requote, but we have the Russian response now as you also supply. Urgent message to EU airlines:- "If you want to fly passenger planes over Russia you will fly over Belarus first or you won't fly at all."

Right now it only applies in the main to EU flights in and out of Moscow, but this can be changed in an instant cutting the EU off from Asia.

We await what the EU will do next, not much choice but to do as Russia says if you ask me. Putin showing the mighty EU who is boss wouldn't you say?

The point I was making that you were posting dumb shit, as usual. Quick kneejerk troll then fuck off to troll somewhere else. Glad you acknowledge that you were talking out of your ass, though. Btw, I predicted this development. So whatever you're trying to achieve, this has zero shock value. God you're boring. :P

[alkyd]

The EU can afford it and I'm not sure Russia wants to piss of China by going to hard in trying to prevent Eu-Asia aviation.

Pretty sure China wouldn't mind if Russia closed airspace to EU airlines, because it means more business for Chinese airlines. Especially in the times of pandemic. Not even mentioning all other major airlines from Asia/Middle East.

[Easo]

Russia further isolating itself is going to hurt Russia a lot more then its going to hurt the EU.
And if China gets pissed that the EU can't fly there anymore its only going to get worse for Russia.

Economies of scale, after all, are a thing. And Russia cannot do this tug of war with EU + others.

[Crispin]

Of course this is fast moving and the EU upped the ante since that now historical post of mine you requote, but we have the Russian response now as you also supply. Urgent message to EU airlines:- "If you want to fly passenger planes over Russia you will fly over Belarus first or you won't fly at all."

Right now it only applies in the main to EU flights in and out of Moscow, but this can be changed in an instant cutting the EU off from Asia.

We await what the EU will do next, not much choice but to do as Russia says if you ask me. Putin showing the mighty EU who is boss wouldn't you say?

Your hate for the EU really shines through huh? Does this also apply, when Russia assassinates on UK soil, and the EU supports it’s ally, or is it only when it’s EU vs ‘someone no matter if it’s Russia or North Korea’?

Russia needs flights from European cities, more than we need flights from Moscow, it’s also possible to reach Asia, without flying over Russia. I suggest you take a look at a map.

[dribbles]

Your hate for the EU really shines through huh? Does this also apply, when Russia assassinates on UK soil, and the EU supports it’s ally, or is it only when it’s EU vs ‘someone no matter if it’s Russia or North Korea’?

Russia needs flights from European cities, more than we need flights from Moscow, it’s also possible to reach Asia, without flying over Russia. I suggest you take a look at a map.

Well I took a look at the map and that's incorrect Crispy. If the EU want access to the most valuable airspace in the world they will do as Russia tells them.

[Forogil]

Why would they though? Chain of events is quite clear (EU does things, others react)

Just to be crystal clear, the chain of events are:

The terrorist state Belarus hijacks a plane flying over their territory.
Since it is no longer safe to fly over Belarussian territory the EU (and some others) stops doing that, and also start blocking Belarussian airline from flying to/over the EU (etc).
Russia blocks plane that have detoured around Belarus from flying to Russia.

Obviously there is a longer background story, including the faked re-election of Lukashenko, the fall of the Soviet union, development of commercial airplanes, WWII, the Russian revolution, etc.

How China will react to this isn't that clear. There have been attempts to form a bond between Belarus and China, but whether that is intended to form a close relation between Belarus, China, and Russia or Belarus have been trying to use China as a lever against Russia isn't clear.

[Mayhem]

Well I took a look at the map and that's incorrect Crispy. If the EU want access to the most valuable airspace in the world they will do as Russia tells them.

So what you're saying is Russia is going to lose influence and money? Interesting.

[Crispin]

Well I took a look at the map and that's incorrect Crispy. If the EU want access to the most valuable airspace in the world they will do as Russia tells them.

Does nothing to argument against Russia needing access to European cities, more than we need access to Moscow.

That being said, there are ways around Russia, that some companies already use, demonstrated in the video you linked, I suggest you do more than watch the first minute. Then again, that's not really the current situation is it?

[Shalcker]

Just to be crystal clear, the chain of events are:
The terrorist state Belarus hijacks a plane flying over their territory.

You kind of skip preceding "We think you're illegitimate and fund/shield your opponents (even if they happen to be Nazi-adjastent)". It wouldn't ever escalate this way without that.

Since it is no longer safe to fly over Belarussian territory the EU (and some others) stops doing that, and also start blocking Belarussian airline from flying to/over the EU (etc).

The second has nothing to do with the first though. Belarus wasn't going to turn their planes into suicide bombers.
You could say "not flying over Belarus is basic safety", but forbidding Belarus from flying over you is pure politics.

Russia blocks plane that have detoured around Belarus from flying to Russia.

In practice they have to provide another flight plan that has to be approved - and it isn't obvious how hard is it to change in Russian system on demand. Could be that there is month or so of checks involved with various agencies before any change can be authorized - or that particular route chosen was clearly problematic for some reason.

Planes that already didn't go through Belarus didn't get blocked.

How China will react to this isn't that clear. There have been attempts to form a bond between Belarus and China, but whether that is intended to form a close relation between Belarus, China, and Russia or Belarus have been trying to use China as a lever against Russia isn't clear.

Lukashenko was trying to use you as lever against Russia - until you blocked that option, obviously.

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Does nothing to argument against Russia needing access to European cities, more than we need access to Moscow.

It is more that Russia is gateway to Asia - which Europe does need a lot.

And you need that more then Russia needs access to European cities.

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So what you're saying is Russia is going to lose influence and money? Interesting.

Every choice EU is making now means losing influence for inflicting instant pain.

That's how economic influence works. You build it up, and then when you use it without meaningful change it disappears because people route around inflicted damage.

Worked same way for Russia-EU bilateral trade sanctions.

[Crispin]

It is more that Russia is gateway to Asia - which Europe does need a lot.

And you need that more then Russia needs access to European cities.

Hold on, you really think that the EU shutting down any incoming flights from Russia, would be less of an impact on Russia, than some European airlines (keep in mind not all of them are allowed as it is now) loosing rights to fly over Siberia, would impact Europe?

My cheapest flight from Denmark to Japan, is via Turkish Airlines. In this fantasy world that dipples thought up, that you for some reason decided to argue for, do Russia ban flights from all airlines that goes to and from the EU, or just EU airlines?

Anyhow, in the real world, the situation is Moscow apparently not accepting flight routes avoiding Belarus, in which case EU stands to loose alot less, when not flying to Moscow, than Moscow would do by not flying to Europe.

[Mayhem]

Every choice EU is making now means losing influence for inflicting instant pain.

That's how economic influence works. You build it up, and then when you use it without meaningful change it disappears because people route around inflicted damage.

Worked same way for Russia-EU bilateral trade sanctions.

So Russia responds to something the EU does to Belarus because of what Belarus did but the EU is at fault for Russia's actions? What kind of logic is that?

[Slant]

So Russia responds to something the EU does to Belarus because of what Belarus did but the EU is at fault for Russia's actions? What kind of logic is that?

Russian shills will always blame the West. For anything. Putin's cranky and puts people in prison? EU's fault. Russia invading Ukraine? EU's fault. Russia shooting down civilian airliner? Fucking EU shouldn't have let them fly aggressively in a straight line at 30something thousand feet. How is a Russian supposed to know that big ass juicy target is not a military jet? EU jet flying over allied territory, being forced to land and some dude being dragged out of the plane for an arrest, clearly the EU's fault, especially when they pile on a reasonable response to such acts, clearly protecting EU citizens and airlines from illegal conduct by rogue nations is an aggressive act towards Russia, as is everything.

If you didn't want to get punched by me, why put your face in the path of my flying fist? Clearly that's your fault. That's Russia's logic. It's simple. It's retarded. It's the best the Soviet Union has left Russia in its legacy.

[Shalcker]

Hold on, you really think that the EU shutting down any incoming flights from Russia, would be less of an impact on Russia, than some European airlines (keep in mind not all of them are allowed as it is now) loosing rights to fly over Siberia, would impact Europe?

Yes, in numeric terms most definitely.

..why would you expect it to be different?

EU-Russia flights are two-way - both sides will lose; most of our exports don't get sent through air routes. But EU will lose out on fuel efficiency to almost entire Asia, while Russia will lose... what exactly? Efficiency on handful of trans-atlantic flights?

My cheapest flight from Denmark to Japan, is via Turkish Airlines. In this fantasy world that dipples thought up, that you for some reason decided to argue for, do Russia ban flights from all airlines that goes to and from the EU, or just EU airlines?

How do you think will it work with Belarus? Will you be fine if Aeroflot flew from Minsk? If we just bought out BelAvia, would you accept flights from Belarus then?

Expect symmetric response.

Anyhow, in the real world, the situation is Moscow apparently not accepting flight routes avoiding Belarus, in which case EU stands to loose alot less, when not flying to Moscow, than Moscow would do by not flying to Europe.

Yes, we're definitely not at "total ban" stage of conflict.

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So Russia responds to something the EU does to Belarus because of what Belarus did but the EU is at fault for Russia's actions? What kind of logic is that?

Where do you see "fault"? You do your thing for your interests, we do our thing for our interests - as we see fitting to situation.

[Crispin]

Yes, in numeric terms most definitely.

..why would you expect it to be different?

EU-Russia flights are two-way - both sides will lose; most of our exports don't get send through air routes. But EU will lose out on fuel efficiency to almost entire Asia, while Russia will lose... what exactly? Efficiency on handful of trans-atlantic flights?

I don't think you get it. I'm not arguing about flights to and from Asia, but to and from Moscow. It's you and dipples that went down the "zomg Russia will ban EU-Asia flights rawr" stupidity

[Slant]

I don't think you get it. I'm not arguing about flights to and from Asia, but to and from Moscow. It's you and dipples that went down the "zomg Russia will ban EU-Asia flights rawr" stupidity

It is the logical consequence. But it will only mean a slightly different route to Asia. What's funny is that they think Lufthansa Cargo paying a bit more for the route to Asia (more distance, more fuel) is equal to Russia being cut off from air travel into the EU. It's ridiculously stupid to make that equation.

[Forogil]

You kind of skip preceding

That's part of the pre-history to this hijacking of a plane by the terrorist state Belarus that I included below in that post.

You could say "not flying over Belarus is basic safety", but forbidding Belarus from flying over you is pure politics.

The second part was only added for context.

The first part is that Not flying over the terrorist state Belarus is basic safety, and Russia re-acted to that - by forbidding plane that changed route to avoid Belarus to fly over Russia.

[Slant]

The second has nothing to do with the first though. Belarus wasn't going to turn their planes into suicide bombers.
You could say "not flying over Belarus is basic safety", but forbidding Belarus from flying over you is pure politics.

If you break ICAO rules, you are unsafe and not fit to fly in our airspace. It's not politics, it's called "consequences". Belarus can fly in our airspace again when they have demonstrated that they understand, agree and know how to fly within the ICAO ruleset.

You saying words doesn't make them reality. Just means you're talking out of your ass, as usual.

[Shalcker]

If you break ICAO rules, you are unsafe and not fit to fly in our airspace. It's not politics, it's called "consequences". Belarus can fly in our airspace again when they have demonstrated that they understand, agree and know how to fly within the ICAO ruleset.

There is nothing in ICAO rules saying you should ban flights the next day.

Your specific response is purely political.

BelAvia didn't beak any ICAO rules to be banned.

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The first part is that Not flying over the terrorist state Belarus is basic safety, and Russia re-acted to that - by forbidding plane that changed route to avoid Belarus to fly over Russia.

Are you not afraid to fly over Russia too? Given that Russia allegedly shot down civilian plane.

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I don't think you get it. I'm not arguing about flights to and from Asia, but to and from Moscow. It's you and dipples that went down the "zomg Russia will ban EU-Asia flights rawr" stupidity

If you will at any point ban flights from Russia to EU that is 100% certain to happen.

[Forogil]

Are you not afraid to fly over Russia too? Given that Russia allegedly shot down civilian planes.

No "allegedly" about it, and several airliners stopped flying over that part close to Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malays...t_17#Aftermath
One Russian official explanation is that planes should have stayed away from war-zones, which actually makes sense.

However, it's also different - Russia or Russian-supported militants shot down a civilian plane by mistake close to a war-zone; and thus not that likely to be repeated. Whereas the terrorist state Belarus hijacking a civilian plane between two EU-countries was intentional.

[Slant]

There is nothing in ICAO rules saying you should ban flights the next day.

Your specific response is purely political.

BelAvia didn't beak any ICAO rules to be banned.

BelAvia is a Ukrainian national airliner run by the state. As such, it is a safe assumption that if the Government decides ICAO rules can be ignored, the same is true for the Airline. ICAO rules don't talk about when and how you should ban flights. That's EU rules saying you need to comply with ICAO rules to enter our airspace. You will find that most nations on the planet have that inconvenient little clause.

BelAvia isn't banned, ALL Belarussian airplanes had their overflight permissions revoked. You call it a ban as if anyone on the planet but EU nations have a right to use EU airspace? You don't. It's a privilege granted, and it can be revoked for any number of reasons. For example to enforce the correct implementation of ICAO rules in our airspace.

But apart from that, Belarus hijacked an EU airplane.

Stop crying about getting a response. What did you think would happen? "Oh, how funny Belarus, that was such a good prank!" Don't fuck with us and then bitch about the response.

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However, it's also different - Russia or Russian-supported militants shot down a civilian plane by mistake close to a war-zone; and thus not that likely to be repeated. Whereas the terrorist state Belarus hijacking a civilian plane between two EU-countries was intentional.

Incompetence is no mistake. They can't learn from it, because incompetency is bred into their military. If they had competent soldiers, those soldiers might question the dumbassery coming out of Moscow.