KGB Hijacks Flight to Arrest Journalist.

[Jastall]

It's kind of hard when you keep undermining every pathway you don't like.

It's really, literally always someone else's fault with you, isn't it?

[Shalcker]

Not our fault if you are undermining those pathway.

You do. We just see where your pathways lead (like Ukraine) and have to look for alternatives. Even if they are ugly.

[Specialka]

You do. We just see where your pathways lead (like Ukraine) and have to look for alternatives. Even if they are ugly.

You mean like when Russia invaded Ukraine ?

[beanman12345]

It's really, literally always someone else's fault with you, isn't it?

That's the gimmick. Defend and never condemn anything Russia ever does. Arguable the most ultra nationalistic poster I think this site has. Russia's and their gov't can do no wrong.

[Shalcker]

You mean like when Russia invaded Ukraine ?

When you force choice between EU and Russia rather then look for possibility of cooperation that was offered your "fight for democracy" becomes purely self-serving.

"Democracy" through violent overthrow of government in Ukraine - or in Belarus case through Nazis calling for attacks on police.

[Cringefest]

Here's the thing about democracy... protests are legal. They're actually REQUIRED in democracies. They are a sign of a healthy democracy. So yes, you just flip the switch. Let people protest. Let them vote who they voted for and... here's the tricky bit for ex-Soviet states, so pay attention: YOU DO NOT CHEAT ON THE BALLOT.

It's really that simple. Count the votes. KEEP THE VOTES. And whoever has the most votes wins. EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE HIM.

Do you really not understand how democracy works? lol

So this dude organised protests... what else? Cos that's any given Tuesday in Italy and France. Some people think the Italian and French are having some sort of weird contest of who can get out of work by protesting more. The Italians used to be champs, but the France are really catching up in recent years.. it's very entertaining to watch.

But, let's not fall for your obvious bullshit attempt to derail the thread by talking about that dissident/protester dick that still nobody is caring about. EU CITIZENS WERE HIJACKED. This isn't about that dude who got grabbed, that's a different discussion and you should create a different thread for that.

This is so naive.

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You had your chance, troll someone else.

Chance of what? This is great. There's like 2 3 people making sense over both sides. Some of you are hilarious to read.
Look at Slant: "just vote". Signature worthy. And your statement about democracy in Europe isn't far behind.

[Mayhem]

Chance of what? This is great. There's like 2 3 people making sense over both sides. Some of you are hilarious to read.
Look at Slant: "just vote". Signature worthy. And your statement about democracy in Europe isn't far behind.

To explain your "arguments". All you have shown so far are ambiguous responses that are meaningless and void of information. Considering you most likely will just give another "witty" response I'll leave you be. Shalcker is at least entertaining, you're just boring.

[Cringefest]

To explain your "arguments". All you have shown so far are ambiguous responses that are meaningless and void of information. Considering you most likely will just give another "witty" response I'll leave you be. Shalcker is at least entertaining, you're just boring.

If I wanted to have a discussion I would have said something else. There is literally nothing I can say to someone saying "Democracy is easy, Just Vote". Good slogan though.
To start a discussion, we'd need to set the terminologies right first. But that would be first of all way off topic and second of all time consuming.

[Shalcker]

I guess your ignoring my response is an admission you were full of it.

Do they need to summon every EU ambassador and give them extradition request for you to be satisfied?

[Forogil]

I guess your ignoring my response is an admission you were full of it.

I have begun wondering why he also ignores my responses...

Like when pointing out that it's article 6 of ICAO that primarily matters for Belavia not flying in the EU not the previous article, and scheduled flights over other countries isn't allowed by default - and can thus be withdrawn for various reasons - like e.g., Belarus hijacking a plane on a scheduled flight.

[Shalcker]

Like when pointing out that it's article 6 of ICAO that primarily matters for Belavia not flying in the EU not the previous article, and scheduled flights over other countries isn't allowed by default - and can thus be withdrawn for various reasons - like e.g., Belarus hijacking a plane on a scheduled flight.

There is nothing really to talk about until we see final ICAO ruling on incident. And for that they need to finish investigation first.

You think it's hijacking, i think there are ways it might be justified.

But even if it's justified nothing stops ICAO from adding something extra to either avoid such incidents in the future or clarify limits within which they might be acceptable.

I have begun wondering why he also ignores my responses...

...why you didn't respond to my question "What do you think your (EU) actions would warrant (as retribution) if you were on other side and just as sure of being in the right?"

Suppose you could mount appropriate counter-response. How strong could it be without being disproportionate?

[Cringefest]

There is nothing really to talk about until we see final ICAO ruling on incident. And for that they need to finish investigation first.

You think it's hijacking, i think there are ways it might be justified.

But even if it's justified nothing stops ICAO from adding something extra to either avoid such incidents in the future or clarify limits within which they might be acceptable.

...why you didn't respond to my question "What do you think your (EU) actions would warrant (as retribution) if you were on other side and just as sure of being in the right?"

Suppose you could mount appropriate counter-response. How strong could it be without being disproportionate?

I honestly think it's going to be very hard to prove that this was justified unless perhaps some serious proofs come up linking the journalist to some national threat.
It was a butchery of a job, that is undeniable.

[Forogil]

There is nothing really to talk about until we see final ICAO ruling on incident.

You are missing that I had two points in that post:

• Belarus hijacked a plane between two EU-countries. The ICAO rules don't have a section on hijacking for them to judge according to.
• Schedules flights over other countries (like the ones from Belavia) is not an automatic right according to the Chicago convention and thus it can be withdrawn on a whim.

You posted something less relevant on the second topic, you were corrected and didn't respond, and now you don't respond to that part again.

[Slant]

When you force choice between EU and Russia rather then look for possibility of cooperation that was offered your "fight for democracy" becomes purely self-serving.

"Democracy" through violent overthrow of government in Ukraine - or in Belarus case through Nazis calling for attacks on police.

The fuck?

The EU didn't force any choice. The Ukraine is a sovereign nation, they decide their own path. Their struggle for democracy is entirely on their own and yes, we do support people that promote democracy. UNLIKE RUSSIA, though, we tend to not invade other countries and just steal large chunks of their landmass anymore. We realised that's a pretty shitty way to run the world.

But you go ahead, blame everything on other people. It can't possibly be that people in Belarus or the Ukraine are fed up with pro-Russian dictators... cos Russia is perfect, who wouldn't want to live under the rule of King Vlad I.

[Shalcker]

You are missing that I had two points in that post:

• Belarus hijacked a plane between two EU-countries. The ICAO rules don't have a section on hijacking for them to judge according to.

They do. Those sections just include need for justification when you force plane to land; doing that for proper reasons is inherent right.

And even though it's highly likely that threat was fake and produced by Belarus, it still haven't been established as definitive result of investigation.

• Schedules flights over other countries (like the ones from Belavia) is not an automatic right according to the Chicago convention and thus it can be withdrawn on a whim.

Could you quote part you read as "on a whim"?

I suspect that reading language there that way you would see section on forced landings as "can land plane on a whim" too.

[Slant]

Do they need to summon every EU ambassador and give them extradition request for you to be satisfied?

So, here's the thing you're carefully not mentioning... That dude filed for asylum in Poland in January. In November you start filing an interpol arrest warrant. See, here in the Western world where the rule of law actually means anything, what happens is that courts first figure out if his asylum request is to be granted or not, being a political refugee. And then they are going to determine if that interpol arrest warrant is actually valid or if it's... you know, the fucking reason why he filed for asylum in the first place.

But... you wouldn't know how these things work, what with you shilling for Russia, a state in which "law" means "whatever Putin wants".

[Forogil]

They do. Those sections just include need for justification when you force plane to land.

The Chicago convention was written in a more innocent time - not envisioning that a state like Belarus would use the ATC to hijack a plane; so therefore it doesn't mention hijacking.

Could you quote part you read as "on a whim"?

The relevant part:

Scheduled air services

No scheduled international air service may be operated over or into the territory of a contracting State, except with the special permission or other authorization of that State, and in accordance with the terms of such permission or authorization.

So, you need a special permission to fly over other territory and if a state wants to withdraw it on a whim, so be it. Similarly as when diplomats are expelled. However, there can be consequences - but Belarus reciprocating was an empty threat for obvious reasons.

[Slant]

They do. Those sections just include need for justification when you force plane to land; doing that for proper reasons is inherent right.

And even though it's highly likely that threat was fake and produced by Belarus, it still haven't been established as definitive result of investigation.

Could you quote part you read as "on a whim"?

I suspect that reading language there that way you would see section on forced landings as "can land plane on a whim" too.

So, what you say is correct. A first, you should pop open a bottle of champagne to celebrate this.

HOWEVER, your implied conclusion is wrong... The EU's current measures of banning Belarus from EU airspace is legitimate and doesn't require any sort of reason, least of all the result of an investigation. That investigation matters only for SANCTIONS. And again, not because of legitimacy but because of diplomatic and political reasons. The EU can do whatever the hell it wants on EU territory and EU airspace, much like Belarus can technically do whatever they want. In this case, the EU decided that for the sake of EU citizens, Belarus is not considered a safe, friendly nation. Belarus at this point is considered an actively HOSTILE nation.

And as far as breaking ICAO rules, we'll wait on the investigation, but to me, and the public in the EU, the proof of that email being sent AFTER the plane was forced down is already enough to condemn Belarus and condone whatever the EU thinks is the appropriate response.

[Ausr]

I have begun wondering why he also ignores my responses...

Like when pointing out that it's article 6 of ICAO that primarily matters for Belavia not flying in the EU not the previous article, and scheduled flights over other countries isn't allowed by default - and can thus be withdrawn for various reasons - like e.g., Belarus hijacking a plane on a scheduled flight.

Because you're talking with Shalcker, the most dishonest turnip paid Russian troll on this site. Supports gulags, tried to legit tell everyone the Russian troops weren't actually Russian troops, I believe tried to say the pic from MW2 that was shared was an actual photo, pro communism, etc.

Best answer is to ignore and move on. He always derails the conversations with bullshit.

[Gaaz]

The fuck?

The EU didn't force any choice. The Ukraine is a sovereign nation, they decide their own path. Their struggle for democracy is entirely on their own and yes, we do support people that promote democracy. UNLIKE RUSSIA, though, we tend to not invade other countries and just steal large chunks of their landmass anymore. We realised that's a pretty shitty way to run the world.

But you go ahead, blame everything on other people. It can't possibly be that people in Belarus or the Ukraine are fed up with pro-Russian dictators... cos Russia is perfect, who wouldn't want to live under the rule of King Vlad I.

Ahaha... That is rich. Take it from someone who ACTUALLY had been in Ukraine during the color revolution - the change was anything but democratic. There was a lot of hype during initial several months, but even then the country was split about 50/50. And most of those who were for changes in government never actually had a choice or even expected the far right to take over. When people realized who really got into power it was already too late. A mayor of a million city acts on his own? Shot. A journalist writes something inconvenient? Shot. A banker does not finance a private army (yes, there are those now in Ukraine)? A grenade thrown into his car with both him and his family inside will do the trick. I was actually in Kiev when a mini war happened there between 2 rival "private security contractors". Fully automatic weapons, granades, all the works. The only thing that was missing is tanks. It was not a small scale gangbang either. Hundreds were involved.

That was in the freaking capital of a European wannabe country just a year ago!!! As for EU and US roles in it, representatives were practically marching alongside initial protests, starting from EU ambassadors and all the way to Victoria Nuland and Jeffry Paiett (or whoever US ambassador was at the time). Cash was flown in containers to support the violent opposition. Actual cargo containers, not through a banking system. And using US diplomatic mail immunity it was transported in armored cars to various opposition sites. Videos from airport security can still be found on the internet, although they are being thoroughly cleaned. A container with $17 million was found in offices of Batkivshina party alone. Do not even get me started on the "peaceful opposition" because I have seen it in action. You do not fly in Georgian mercenaries, walk out with them from a building overseeing a mass shooting of both police and protesters (53 dead on both sides), using your member of Parliament immunity, throw combat rifles into a trunk of your car, drive off and THEN call these protests peaceful.

Now, imagine for a moment if during the Capitol riot on the 6th of January, Russian ambassador and secretary of state were marching with protesters. What if Russian diplomatic planes were delivering containers of cash to rioters? If private armies started waging war on US soil without any way to control them, simply because they almost outnumber actual official state army. Would you still call this the will of people and democracy? US establishment and MSM were having a hissy fit for 5 years over $3000 that some troll farm spent on memes.
There is a sad joke going around. It is originally a rhyme, so I can not translate it word to word, but it goes something like this:

Once upon a time there were:

- ambassadors of US, France, Spain, Germany, Denmark

- US State Secretary Assistant Victoria Nuland

- US senators John McCain and Chris Murphy

- minister of external affairs of Germany Guido Westerwelle

- minister of external affairs of Netherlands - Frans Timmermans

- supreme representative of EU for external affairs and security - Katrin Ashton

- Georgian President Michael Saakashvili

- member of EU parliament - Yatsek Protasevich

- minister of external affairs and speaker of Seim of Lithuania Loretta Grauzhinene

- ex prime minister of Poland - Yaroslav Kachinsky
- Czech senator - Yaromir Shtetina

they gathered on Maidan (Ukraine Capital's central square) and accused Russia of meddling in internal Ukrainian affairs...

The sad part is that it is completely true, all these people were actually in Ukraine and actually visited Maidan during the color revolution, promoting anti government protests and threatening sanctions to anyone who does not support the overthrow of the government.