So.. Alleria vs Liadrin

[Jackstraw]

If only she had her original outlook and disdain for the light, instead of cardboard box paladin.

At least she has good developed reasons for her embrace of the Light and subsequent conversion of her Blood Knights from ruthless to more Paladin-y.
Although the siphoning of a Naaru was a great theme.

On topic though, Alleria wins no contest.
All other power checks are pointless. Alleria's power are as high as allowed by the writers much like anyone else, but Alleria gets beaten by the champion of Azeroth, as much powered up from Ashjra'kamas and the Heart, in the hour of victory for the Void, so there's that.

All the mumblings about Alleria possibly joining the Horde, although a fun thought experiment, have literally no basis of existance. Alleria breeds a deep hatred for the Orcs, I just don't see how she could join a faction founded by one who she cannot talk with, and even then it would take years for her to mend her wounds despite spending a thousand waging a cosmic war and assumedly having time for introspection.

[Super Dickmann]

Liadrin has no definable personality post-conversion. She has many appearances, but save for the fact that she likes the Light I'm at a loss to identify a single trait she has, a single relationship with any other character, positive or negative, or a single plot beat that couldn't be done by any other paladin and better. Whatever one may say about Alleria, there's no other character to slot in her role and she has definable traits, loyalties, grievances and relationships. Her dislike of the Horde, willful nature, her ties to the Alliance and the High Elves, her grudge against the orcs and both her marriage, her view of her son, her relevance to her sisters and her tutelage under Locus-Walker are all unique to that particular character.

Power and story-wise Alleria is better. Liadrin is one of those characters who's fanbase I genuinely can't for the life of me understand. It's not sex appeal as she's in full body armor and it can't be her scintillating personality or banter with other characters as she has none. Is it just the aesthetic? Is it nostalgia for about a year of the Blood Knights now near fifteen year old existence as recoloured human paladins? Is it the way she tells you repeatedly that Darkness Cannot Abide within the Light? Please, explain.

[Varodoc]

Since the thread has mutated into a thread about Character writing (which is obviously better than meaningless power levels), Alleria is obviously a better character than Liadrin. Liadrin doesn't even have a character, she's just a generic paladin who worships the Light because she is a paladin and naturally that's what a paladin does. Meanwhile Alleria is a complex character, both in the way she behaved before Legion (how she rushed to protect the Human kingdoms against the advice of her countrymen and how she was consumed by vengeance when her brother was killed by orcs, and had to be talked out of it by Turalyon), and after Legion. The way she was reintroduced into the story is perfect, making her a Void Elf simply gives her immense story potential at a time when the Void is becoming increasingly more prevalent in the storyline. Which is why her being absent from 8.3 was a crime, but at this point I'm beating a dead horse.

Alleria is an interesting character, with an interesting backstory, interesting motivations, and an interesting role in the storyline. Liadrin is literally just a generic paladin, she does not have a character.

[Aucald]

Liadrin has no definable personality post-conversion. She has many appearances, but save for the fact that she likes the Light I'm at a loss to identify a single trait she has, a single relationship with any other character, positive or negative, or a single plot beat that couldn't be done by any other paladin and better. Whatever one may say about Alleria, there's no other character to slot in her role and she has definable traits, loyalties, grievances and relationships. Her dislike of the Horde, willful nature, her ties to the Alliance and the High Elves, her grudge against the orcs and both her marriage, her view of her son, her relevance to her sisters and her tutelage under Locus-Walker are all unique to that particular character.

Power and story-wise Alleria is better. Liadrin is one of those characters who's fanbase I genuinely can't for the life of me understand. It's not sex appeal as she's in full body armor and it can't be her scintillating personality or banter with other characters as she has none. Is it just the aesthetic? Is it nostalgia for about a year of the Blood Knights now near fifteen year old existence as recoloured human paladins? Is it the way she tells you repeatedly that Darkness Cannot Abide within the Light? Please, explain.

I wouldn't call myself a fan of Liadrin - but she does have a story, even if it's not one that's touched on often. You can find most of it in the short story Blood of the Highborne, which details her former career as a Priest, then as the first of the Blood Knights, what led her to question the path after the psychic screaming of M'uru drove her former apprentice and fellow Knight insane and turned him into a murderer. Following her abandonment of the Blood Knight credo she has been more or less static as a character, but she still has a history and story. She also has a good deal of involvement in WoD and Legion as well, which adds to her characterization somewhat, though she remains a C-tier character in terms of overall importance to the ongoing story.

[Super Dickmann]

I wouldn't call myself a fan of Liadrin - but she does have a story, even if it's not one that's touched on often. You can find most of it in the short story Blood of the Highborne, which details her former career as a Priest, then as the first of the Blood Knights, what led her to question the path after the psychic screaming of M'uru drove her former apprentice and fellow Knight insane and turned him into a murderer. Following her abandonment of the Blood Knight credo she has been more or less static as a character, but she still has a history and story. She also has a good deal of involvement in WoD and Legion as well, which adds to her characterization somewhat, though she remains a C-tier character in terms of overall importance to the ongoing story.

I quite liked what I saw of that book from the bootleg German version that was up years ago. It fleshed out Liadrin well enough, even if she was a very far cry from the ice queen archetype she was in TBC, which I contend is the best version. It's her variant that turns her from that archetype into a standard paladin that I take issue with, as despite her featuring in the cases you mentioned along with BFA she doesn't really go anywhere. This isnt' really anything new for such a tertiary character, but what is and what I'm getting at is that she does have a fanbase the way other characters of such a calibre don't.

Aside from that, while I've said my piece on the TBC blood elves being the most interesting iteration a ton of times, what surprises me is that they haven't really reused the Blood Knight archetype for villains. There'd be a lot of drama in people who control the Light and they'd be a very different sort of foe to a fanatical kind of baddie, yet except for Benedictus this entire idea just got dropped.

[Aucald]

I quite liked what I saw of that book from the bootleg German version that was up years ago. It fleshed out Liadrin well enough, even if she was a very far cry from the ice queen archetype she was in TBC, which I contend is the best version. It's her variant that turns her from that archetype into a standard paladin that I take issue with, as despite her featuring in the cases you mentioned along with BFA she doesn't really go anywhere. This isnt' really anything new for such a tertiary character, but what is and what I'm getting at is that she does have a fanbase the way other characters of such a calibre don't.

Aside from that, while I've said my piece on the TBC blood elves being the most interesting iteration a ton of times, what surprises me is that they haven't really reused the Blood Knight archetype for villains. There'd be a lot of drama in people who control the Light and they'd be a very different sort of foe to a fanatical kind of baddie, yet except for Benedictus this entire idea just got dropped.

Personally speaking, while I understand the reasons the Blood Knights changed as a result of the events of TBC (e.g. the restoration of the Sunwell and the story of M'uru), I would've liked it if the Blood Knight order remained disconnected and thematically separate from the Silver Hand, Argent Crusade, and other umbrella Paladin groups. They could still re-adopt the more mainline Paladin model while holding themselves apart, more or less. I would've liked the same treatment for the Sunwalkers as well, as opposed to all Paladin groups sort of operating in a classical Paladin hegemony. There should be more differentiation and accompanying discord between the Paladin groups.

[Garretdejiko]

I just found it interesting that Alleria absorbed the powers of a Void Naaru, while Liadrin siphons the holy energies of a Naaru.

What if these 2 we're to fight?

The one with the bigger r34 fandom wins.

[Raisei]

Liadrin has no definable personality post-conversion. She has many appearances, but save for the fact that she likes the Light I'm at a loss to identify a single trait she has, a single relationship with any other character, positive or negative, or a single plot beat that couldn't be done by any other paladin and better. Whatever one may say about Alleria, there's no other character to slot in her role and she has definable traits, loyalties, grievances and relationships. Her dislike of the Horde, willful nature, her ties to the Alliance and the High Elves, her grudge against the orcs and both her marriage, her view of her son, her relevance to her sisters and her tutelage under Locus-Walker are all unique to that particular character.

Hmm, I don't think it's as bad as you say. Liadrins story is simply finished and it wasn't even that bad, but now there are other characters in the more important roles.

Her feeling that the Light betrayed the High Elves during their time of need is a pretty relatable tale. Especially since, as a Priest, she had build her entire life on the Light as something real and good. Seeing how it did nothing when the Helfs were murdered by the Scourge would shake someones faith. Her basically taking revenge on the Light by proxy through torturing a Naaru is a pretty organic continuation.

Broken down to the most base form she is Kael without that pesky Y-Chromosome, betrayed by those she trusted, her people murdered and homeless and her dipping into evil acts because she feels justified to do so. The difference is that where Kael went full psycho she backed away and redeemed herself. But that is pretty much the end of her story so far. Since then there has been very little done with her, apart from some voice lines.

It's one of the "problems" of WoW that there is such an enormous cast of characters, so giving each of them in-game stories to flesh them out is difficult. Personally I would love a continuation of the Legion Class Halls with a more direct focus on the companions there, Mass Effect style, to build our own character as well as fill the Lore characters with more life. But likely that is more then WoW can handle in-game.

I would also add that sex-appeal is not necessarily earned by wearing skimpy cloth. Even a man or woman in full plate armor can be very attractive.

[Vinictus]

Lady Liadrin wins easy, hands down.

How? Because I want her to.

[Super Dickmann]

Personally speaking, while I understand the reasons the Blood Knights changed as a result of the events of TBC (e.g. the restoration of the Sunwell and the story of M'uru), I would've liked it if the Blood Knight order remained disconnected and thematically separate from the Silver Hand, Argent Crusade, and other umbrella Paladin groups. They could still re-adopt the more mainline Paladin model while holding themselves apart, more or less. I would've liked the same treatment for the Sunwalkers as well, as opposed to all Paladin groups sort of operating in a classical Paladin hegemony. There should be more differentiation and accompanying discord between the Paladin groups.

I'm legit surprised by this since we've gone at this before from separate standpoints, but I entirely agree that turning both the Blood Knights and especially the Sunwalkers into the standard paladin archetype has been to their detriment. In the case of the Sunwalkers it's black and white - they simply aren't paladins at all except in a gameplay sense and yet Blizzard forgot this in all but their first appearance. In the Blood Knights' case it's a broader problem of the Blood Elves in general. It makes total sense that a deeply conservative people who've been doing things one way very successfully for several thousand years, who it took the deaths of 90% of their population to shift in any way would revert as soon as the crisis is resolved. It's that knowing this, the route should not have been taken in the first place because while it makes total sense that with the Sunwell restored by a literal act of God Liadrin and Co revert to being generic paladins, it also eliminates their sole distinguishing features.

This is not to say you couldn't have taken them in a different route even with the handicap that is the Sunwell being restored. The Sunwell being tied to every elf means they don't actually need to follow the faith, yet this is never explored and Liadrin is so tied to her moment of disillusionment and coping with the crisis that going 'lol, the Light loves you' defuses her core conflict and so every other aspect of her personality. I know and agree with your entire take on her character @Raisei, it's just that that character began and concluded within the same expansion and since then has been featured quite a bit for a tertiary personality without gaining other traits. A static character isn't anything bad provided what they do is distinct and interesting but Liadrin doesn't have that. It was an issue with some of the Order Halls in general, the paladin one being a particularly galling example.

[Jackstraw]

A static character isn't anything bad provided what they do is distinct and interesting but Liadrin doesn't have that. It was an issue with some of the Order Halls in general, the paladin one being a particularly galling example.

What do you mean by that? I quite liked the sense of camaraderie the Paladin hall transmitted, characters were interesting - hell, I'd have expected this sense of common bonding from the Warrior class hall but Warriors got to play with Godlike beings and angels, whereas Paladins did the nitty gritty fighting.
But I digress.

Liadrin in my experience is beloved by the set of players who got to experience the first iteration of Liadrin, the Blood Knight Matriarch. There were dialogues if I recall correctly during the Paladin quests throughout Eversong that fleshed out both the Blood Knights and her as a ruthless order, siphoning the light to do their bidding as opposed to praying to the light to get her blessing. And yes, over the years the character got diluted, but there's a fondness of her I quite recall, and can totally relate to the catharsis of M'uru sacrificing itself to cleanse the Sunwell because after all these years a creature of pure light grew simpathetic with the plight of the Blood Elves, and in this same act creating a change of hearts in Liadrin and her people. It' s a nice moment.

Sadly that is all there is to it, of course. But in a way it's something similar to Sylvanas: Liadrin supporters like a version of the character as it was before the rewritings and as presented in past iterations of the game.

[cparle87]

Yeah right. Alleria was one of most orc-hating people in the war. She would never join the Horde, all of her dialogue during Legion and later make that clear. She wants the Blood Elves to redeem themselves and rejoin the Alliance, not the other way around.

We already have the Nightborne enslave themselves to the Horde and their Banshee Kween for no reason other then wasting good characters on a faction that only exists to start pointless wars every 3 years, let's leave Alleria out of that.

Or it could be some good character development. If you think about it nearly all the Horde races were enemies at one point and learned to put it in the past and work together. I always figured the worgen should've been Horde, it could've been done. Just replace the forsaken invading with humans, what with Varian swearing at Undercity to not let a human kingdom remain in the hands of monsters, and the night elves with Horde druids. Genn could have some humble pie and character development being in debt to orcs and grow a bit. Not that his bond with Anduin isn't touching and all.

[Nyel]

- Also Liadrin isn't the host of a Naaru's power? When did she absorb a Naaru? Meanwhile Alleria indeed absorbed the Void Naaru L'ura, as well as another Void Demi-God prior to that, making her the vessel of TWO VOID DEMI-GODS.

The Blood Knights, the Blood Elf Paladins, gain their power from absorbing the Light of the Naaru. I didn't know this until recently where I leveled my Horde Paladin. Maybe they already have retconned it, but it's how Blood Elves gained the power of the light and were able to become Paladins.

[Jackstraw]

The Blood Knights, the Blood Elf Paladins, gain their power from absorbing the Light of the Naaru. I didn't know this until recently where I leveled my Horde Paladin. Maybe they already have retconned it, but it's how Blood Elves gained the power of the light and were able to become Paladins.

That was in the past. I think you're leveling in Classic? I just don't know if M'uru is still in the dungeons of the order temple.
Anyway, since the end of TBC Blood Knights tap into the light via the Sunwell.

[wargone]

Yea the only thing thise 2 have in common is they are both elves.

Liadrin is just a paladin. A strong and good paladin. But nothing makes her better then any random Uthur or any paladin.

Alleria have absorbed the power of 1 Void naru and Also stuff in the past, She is Beyond powerfull. She is A (if not S tier) level of power, Look at Tyrande or sylvanas

[Varodoc]

The Blood Knights, the Blood Elf Paladins, gain their power from absorbing the Light of the Naaru. I didn't know this until recently where I leveled my Horde Paladin. Maybe they already have retconned it, but it's how Blood Elves gained the power of the light and were able to become Paladins.

Being infused with the Light of the Naaru =/= Absorbing the Naaru itself.

There's a difference between being infused with the power of a Naaru, and literally absorbing that Naaru, which is what Alleria did to L'ura.

What Alleria did has no precedent in the entire Warcraft franchise. I can't think of any other character that literally gorged themselves on a Naaru's essence. The one that comes closest is AU Velen, who sacrificed himself to redeem the AU Naaru. But naturally he never absorbed it as he died.

[Jackstraw]

Being infused with the Light of the Naaru =/= Absorbing the Naaru itself.

There's a difference between being infused with the power of a Naaru, and literally absorbing that Naaru, which is what Alleria did to L'ura.

What Alleria did has no precedent in the entire Warcraft franchise. I can't think of any other character that literally gorged themselves on a Naaru's essence. The one that comes closest is AU Velen, who sacrificed himself to redeem the AU Naaru. But naturally he never absorbed it as he died.

There's plenty of parallels though: all Demon Hunters consume demon hearts to get their power, Illidan is basically bathing in fel, the Zul'drak trolls consumed their loas, Varian had a wild god inside, Garrosh tapped into the heart of Y'shaarj and sought to fuse with it, and I'm surely missing someone else.

[Encaitar29]

Darkness cannot abide within the Light!

Liadrin glare intensifies.

But on a more serious note - Liadrin isn't draining the Naaru anymore, the power of the Sunwell is now the source of Blood Knight's power, which's a mix of Holy and Light. A more harmonious relationship with the Light also made Liadrin stronger as suggested in the sources, however I doubt that she can be on par with someone who actually absorbed an entire Naaru as Alleria did.

[Varodoc]

There's plenty of parallels though: all Demon Hunters consume demon hearts to get their power, Illidan is basically bathing in fel, the Zul'drak trolls consumed their loas, Varian had a wild god inside, Garrosh tapped into the heart of Y'shaarj and sought to fuse with it, and I'm surely missing someone else.

There's obviously a difference between generic demons and a Void Naaru, so the similarity with the Demon Hunters doesn't hold. You can't compare L'ura to some random demon of the Legion. L'ura is severely underestimated, but she was a fearsome force. In fact she was able to take over Mac'aree from the shadows to the point that even the Legion didn't dare go into that territory, and then she simply acted as a beacon to manipulate the ethereal armies (hence why the zone is overrun with ethereals, they are answering L'ura's call). And obviously in the AU universe the Dark Star (a Void Naaru) was shown capable of annihilating the population of Karabor in its entirety in Velen's vision.

The problem as I've been saying since the beginning is that Blizzard would rather make the 10th model for Thrall rather than involving Alleria in some major way in the storyline (the books don't count because only 1% of the players read them and they are not a visual medium), which means that she isn't allowed to demonstrate her full powers. Regardless from what was shown of the Void Naaru she is one of the most powerful leaders on Azeroth. Liadrin stands no chance, she's just some random paladin.

In fact Alleria can single-handedly bring down Thalassian civilization just by corrupting the Sunwell if she wanted to so :shrug:

[Grazrug]

Due to Alliance bias Alleria is better. If we are lucky she ends up as raid boss some day after she gives in to the whispers. One less alliance mary sue to worry about.