Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Dhrizzle]

Doesn't that just demonstrate my point? Your definition of "clear advantage" is nuance you are hiding behind to not label something pay to win even though it is paying real money for power. You won't call it pay for win unless it is paying for the best, or a clear, advantage.

Well yes... that's what pay-2-win means. Paying to save time or paying to have something quirky that doesn't give an advantage isn't pay-2-win.

If it isn't giving an advantage over non-paying players then whatever is being paid for is just a saving of time. I'm not going to call it pay-to-win if someone uses real money to buy the same Mech as me even if it did save them a few hours grinding, and sure as hell not if they bought a Mech worse than mine.

[arkanon]

Well yes... that's what pay-2-win means. Paying to save time or paying to have something quirky that doesn't give an advantage isn't pay-2-win.

If it isn't giving an advantage over non-paying players then whatever is being paid for is just a saving of time. I'm not going to call it pay-to-win if someone uses real money to buy the same Mech as me even if it did save them a few hours grinding, and sure as hell not if they bought a Mech worse than mine.

What if it saved them 300 hours of grinding, and you are only half way through the grind, so dont have the mech? What if it takes 900 hours to grind it?

My point is, for some unknown (lol) reason, its always just "a couple of hours" or "a few hours" that is saved - its never 3 weeks, or 4 months. Why is that? Could it be that saying "a few hours" reduces the egregiousness of the P2W nature of the feature? Could it possibly be that when we start to talk real world scenarios, where the really "bad" examples of P2W features can save you HUGE amounts of time - unlocking the feature without paying is very unreasonable?

I also think its very strange that the defenders of P2W systems ALWAYS compare the P2W system to what they personally can achieve in game, rather than what the community as a whole can achieve. To a mythic raider, the ability to skip to max level and unlock an entire set of heroic gear probably doesnt really seem like a big deal - i know it wouldnt have to me personally. But what about heroic raiders? What about normal raiders? What about people who only do LFR? What about people who are still learning and working through heroic and M+0 dungeons?

[crakerjack]

Man, the WoW haters are really going to die on this hill desperately trying to convince others of a fallacy.

[vsb]

Yes, WoW is P2W. You can spend bakses, buy gold, buy gear from AH, buy gear from raids, buy M+ achievements, buy arena titles. Plenty of things available in the game for gold. And it's official, you won't get banned for it, it's the opposite, your account will be marked as a whale player in the internal support system and you'll avoid most issues happening with other players.

[Azmoden]

WoW is Pay to Play, and you need to Play in order to Win, therefore, WoW is Pay to Win.

/checkmate
/endthread

[rhorle]

See this is where you are being intellectually dishonest. If you want to feel right go right ahead.

How is it intellectually dishonest to state that people's primary reason to buy levels is to gain levels? Of course it saves time. Getting something quicker saves time but that "time skip" wouldn't have any meaning with out the character power attached to it.

[MoanaLisa]

There shouldn't be any grey areas. If either is pay to win, or not pay to win. Making excuses for what is and is not acceptable grinding is using subjective reasons regardless of if you like or dislike how much time it takes to grind. It has nothing to do with surmountable or insurmountable challenges. Just because a free option is offered doesn't mean a game is not also pay to win.

It's not that simple. Of course there are grey areas because there is no specific definition of what pay-to-win is that is acceptable to everyone. I think a lot of the justifications for "Well, if you can do this and this other thing, then buy a boost that's pay to win" are simply proxies for "I hate Blizzard" but that's a personal opinion.

Insistence that your definition is the only correct one which is implied in your replies isn't any more fair than others insisting that their different definition is the correct one. If everyone cannot agree to the terms of the boundary conditions then it becomes an exercise where everyone is talking past one another. This thread is full of that.

My position is that it doesn't matter. Blizzard has made the option to buy safe gold available and it can be used in any manner the player likes. It's none of our business how it gets used and Blizzard isn't doing anything that most other studios are already doing.

[rhorle]

Well yes... that's what pay-2-win means. Paying to save time or paying to have something quirky that doesn't give an advantage isn't pay-2-win.

Your examples all give advantages though yet you don't consider all of them to be paying to win. Because you are using nuance of how much advantages, what type of advantage, or how easily it can be gotten for free as ways to disqualify pay to win from being pay to win. Instead of saying acceptable versus not acceptable pay to win it is "this isn't pay to win".

- - - Updated - - -

It's not that simple. Of course there are grey areas because there is no specific definition of what pay-to-win is. I think a lot of the justifications for "Well, if you can do this and this other thing, then buy a boost that's pay to win" are simply proxies for "I hate Blizzard" but that's a personal opinion.

Of course it is that simple. It is easy to have a simple definition that doesn't change based on subjective grey areas depending on the individuals aversion to the label. It is entirely fair to say that buying power, of any type, is paying to win. How is that unfair? It doesn't allow for nuance. It doesn't allow for grey areas. It makes all power pay to win.

The problem you seem to be falling into is that pay to win has to be negative according to you. So it doesn't allow for acceptable and not acceptable ways of pay to win. Which is why those grey areas and nuance need to be included in the definition rather then considered after the definition. Of course it doesn't matter what people think because companies will do whatever they want. That adds zero discussion value though and is just dismissive.

[Triceron]

No it isn't pay to win.

At most it is pay to catch up. In absolutely NO way is buying a boost putting you ahead of everyone else that doesn't which is the definitive requirement for it being a true pay to win game. In buying a boost, you are REQUIRED to use other people who can actually traverse the content. The only way buying a boost or a token would be pay to win is if nobody else is required to get you the gear.

Pay to win is Neverwinter, where buying gear is not only completely possible but allows you to absolutely outgear everyone that doesn't pay.

Is there not a way to pay to put yourself ahead of everyone else? A spot in mythic raid runs, etc.

[Elbob]

Doesn't that just demonstrate my point? Your definition of "clear advantage" is nuance you are hiding behind to not label something pay to win even though it is paying real money for power. You won't call it pay for win unless it is paying for the best, or a clear, advantage.

I tend to like googles top result when you search "Define pay to win" - a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money.

Now this definition uses the word "advantage" over "power" and I think that is important. I also think the "significant" is subjective and not worth discussing, but what they mean by "advantage over those who don't" is important. Now I'm a 10/10m raider and obviously I didn't kill M Sylv week one but easily could afford my BoE's week one along with everyone else in my guild.

Now what in game advantage did WF guilds have over me and my guild that led to them killing Sylv much sooner then my guild? How was this advantage gained via access to the token, especially when confronted with knowledge that players in my guild had the gold to buy the same BoE's week 1? If you ask me there wasn't one. The advantage was out of game resources including time, support staff, player skill level, etc.... But that leaves us in a hole, if I couldn't pay for an advantage to help me and my guild clear as fast as WF guilds did... how is the game p2w? If I had spent money on wow tokens, would I have been able to help my guild clear the tier faster? No. My hypothetical counterpart that spend tons of money on wow tokens would have gained 0 advantage over my 0 wow token self.

Paying to have access to a currency you aren't limited in acquiring and can already have too much of doesn't cause P2W. It may facilitate some ease at irrelevant times but can also grant no advantage over some one who spent nothing. Kinda voiding the initial definition.

[Dhrizzle]

What if it saved them 300 hours of grinding, and you are only half way through the grind, so dont have the mech? What if it takes 900 hours to grind it?

Well then it would probably fall into being pay-to-win for all intents and purposes as I've mentioned at least twice now, though I'd be unlikely to play a game that requires that level of commitment for a basic feature anyway.

My point is, for some unknown (lol) reason, its always just "a couple of hours" or "a few hours" that is saved - its never 3 weeks, or 4 months. Why is that? Could it be that saying "a few hours" reduces the egregiousness of the P2W nature of the feature? Could it possibly be that when we start to talk real world scenarios, where the really "bad" examples of P2W features can save you HUGE amounts of time - unlocking the feature without paying is very unreasonable?

I swing between extremes because that is how games tend to do it. It's pretty easy to see when a game is offering some convenience and when a game is offering just a token "free" path but expects players to pay.

I guess the main thing is to look at the game and decide whether or not it would be fun to you without paying. If you have to buy a level boost and pay people to run you through high end content I guess the game would be p2w to you, but it isn't something I've ever been tempted by and I suspect for most people who get boosted it isn't a major thing they need to do.

I also think its very strange that the defenders of P2W systems ALWAYS compare the P2W system to what they personally can achieve in game, rather than what the community as a whole can achieve. To a mythic raider, the ability to skip to max level and unlock an entire set of heroic gear probably doesnt really seem like a big deal - i know it wouldnt have to me personally. But what about heroic raiders? What about normal raiders? What about people who only do LFR? What about people who are still learning and working through heroic and M+0 dungeons?

I never do anything harder than LFR and I suck at making money...

[callipygoustp]

Considering how many people I know who are regularly, actively, paying for carries in M+, mythic raiding, and pvp..... yeah, WoW is most definitely P2W.

[Empower]

I tend to like googles top result when you search "Define pay to win" - a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money.

Now this definition uses the word "advantage" over "power" and I think that is important. I also think the "significant" is subjective and not worth discussing, but what they mean by "advantage over those who don't" is important. Now I'm a 10/10m raider and obviously I didn't kill M Sylv week one but easily could afford my BoE's week one along with everyone else in my guild.

Now what in game advantage did WF guilds have over me and my guild that led to them killing Sylv much sooner then my guild? How was this advantage gained via access to the token, especially when confronted with knowledge that players in my guild had the gold to buy the same BoE's week 1? If you ask me there wasn't one. The advantage was out of game resources including time, support staff, player skill level, etc.... But that leaves us in a hole, if I couldn't pay for an advantage to help me and my guild clear as fast as WF guilds did... how is the game p2w? If I had spent money on wow tokens, would I have been able to help my guild clear the tier faster? No. My hypothetical counterpart that spend tons of money on wow tokens would have gained 0 advantage over my 0 wow token self.

Paying to have access to a currency you aren't limited in acquiring and can already have too much of doesn't cause P2W. It may facilitate some ease at irrelevant times but can also grant no advantage over some one who spent nothing. Kinda voiding the initial definition.

If you must add a ton of exceptions and explanations for your argument to even remotely make sense you don't have much of an argument.

Now wow has always had pay to win in it. The thing annoying people now is how out of control it has gotten. It is to the point it impedes forming actual groups.

[Cyanu]

'Sorry if this is discussed anywhere else, could not find any Thread related to this.'

piss off troll


anyone with a half functional brain can tell you that it's not pay to win, at least not in any timely or relevant manner

sure you can buy BoE stuff AFTER the people who are actually winning put it on AH but that's only there to impress your casual guildies with your barely above average parse

illegally you can buy boosts in PvP too, but only AFTER the people who are actually winning are done getting glad on their mains and start boosting with their alts


so between 2 bad players gold makes a difference, between 2 good ones gold doesn't really matter

[Goat7]

No-one in WoW can pay money to get an advantage that can not be gained through just playing the game, therefore it's not pay-2-win.

lol

like this guy

[Empower]

'Sorry if this is discussed anywhere else, could not find any Thread related to this.'

piss off troll


anyone with a half functional brain can tell you that it's not pay to win, at least not in any timely or relevant manner

sure you can buy BoE stuff AFTER the people who are actually winning put it on AH but that's only there to impress your casual guildies with your barely above average parse

illegally you can buy boosts in PvP too, but only AFTER the people who are actually winning are done getting glad on their mains and start boosting with their alts


so between 2 bad players gold makes a difference, between 2 good ones gold doesn't really matter

It isn't illegal to buy a pvp boost but you have to be roughly a 2100 player in your own right to buy a glad boost. Looked into it once for a protodrake mount since pvp doesn't interest me usually beyond getting the elite set.

[M1r4g3]

I tend to like googles top result when you search "Define pay to win" - a game where paying real money gives players a significant advantage over those who don't spend any money.

Now this definition uses the word "advantage" over "power" and I think that is important. I also think the "significant" is subjective and not worth discussing, but what they mean by "advantage over those who don't" is important. Now I'm a 10/10m raider and obviously I didn't kill M Sylv week one but easily could afford my BoE's week one along with everyone else in my guild.

Now what in game advantage did WF guilds have over me and my guild that led to them killing Sylv much sooner then my guild? How was this advantage gained via access to the token, especially when confronted with knowledge that players in my guild had the gold to buy the same BoE's week 1? If you ask me there wasn't one. The advantage was out of game resources including time, support staff, player skill level, etc.... But that leaves us in a hole, if I couldn't pay for an advantage to help me and my guild clear as fast as WF guilds did... how is the game p2w? If I had spent money on wow tokens, would I have been able to help my guild clear the tier faster? No. My hypothetical counterpart that spend tons of money on wow tokens would have gained 0 advantage over my 0 wow token self.

Paying to have access to a currency you aren't limited in acquiring and can already have too much of doesn't cause P2W. It may facilitate some ease at irrelevant times but can also grant no advantage over some one who spent nothing. Kinda voiding the initial definition.

So what? Why would there have to be an advantage in every single situation for it to be called p2w?
What if you're a super-casual that plays 15min a week and only sits and chats in a city in some *insert whatever mmo You think is actual p2w* care about someone buying a 1shot pvp spells or something that doesn't directly affect them? Is the *insert whatever mmo You think is actual p2w* suddenly not p2w now? The fact that your definition changes depending on the situation makes your definition pointless, the term is black and white, either there is an advantage in general across the entre playerbase or there isn't, anything that disrupts the balance/fairness and allows for money outside the game to influence the game inside it is p2w.

[rhorle]

Now this definition uses the word "advantage" over "power" and I think that is important.

I think you perfect sum up the problems with using advantage. It is relative to a lot of things. Compared to world first guilds nothing would give you an advantage. A guild comparing themselves to your guild could potentially buy an advantage if gear or something was available directly for purchase. It is why power is the safer thing to use for "pay to win" over advantage. Because power doesn't change. It either is or is not power. The only thing that changes with power is how advantageous it is which should be how we choose acceptable and unacceptable pay to win rather then if it is even called pay to win.

Personally I don't see the token as pay to win because it is just currency. It isn't directly buying the win that currency enables and like you say it isn't limited in the game. It isn't a currency just to support "free" play in a pay to win system. Level boosts, while a time skip, or paying to win because it offers power even if that power isn't relevant to end-game play. It is an acceptable form of paying to win because of its low advantages.

[Spicymemer]

Im an idiot, disregard everything ive said

True.

Wow is pay 2 win, now stfu nerd, 13,000 posts, get a life.

[Empower]

I think you perfect sum up the problems with using advantage. It is relative to a lot of things. Compared to world first guilds nothing would give you an advantage. A guild comparing themselves to your guild could potentially buy an advantage if gear or something was available directly for purchase. It is why power is the safer thing to use for "pay to win" over advantage. Because power doesn't change. It either is or is not power. The only thing that changes with power is how advantageous it is which should be how we choose acceptable and unacceptable pay to win rather then if it is even called pay to win.

Personally I don't see the token as pay to win because it is just currency. It isn't directly buying the win that currency enables and like you say it isn't limited in the game. It isn't a currency just to support "free" play in a pay to win system. Level boosts, while a time skip, or paying to win because it offers power even if that power isn't relevant to end-game play. It is an acceptable form of paying to win because of its low advantages.

Hate to point out your ignorance but you know method(limit?) admitted to buying millions of gold during a interview post race before right?