Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[WernerCD]

This again. Everyone else with a positive IQ value, knows there isnt anything to win in WoW.

There also isn't anything to win via pissing matches in MMOC... yet here we are. "P2W is bad"..."WOW isn't P2W ARTARD!"

Personally, I don't think I'd call it P2W. P2W is buying characters that can't be gained via playing - or abilities that are more powerful than free abilities.

I WOULD call it Pay 2 Screw the economy... because all the money creates gold which punishes those who aren't paying by making things more expensive than they'd be otherwise. I can buy pots with gold... but when those pots cost 5x more because cash buyers are driving the prices up... shrug.

Until top guilds start "selling" runs through hard content - and that does happen occasionally... but even then THAT is limited and you'll generally not get TOP tier until right before it becomes obsolete...

[Semihagez]

Here is a very simple fact. When complexity limit got world first mythic CN back in Dec 23, they had an average ilvl of 220.. That's literally 1 weeks after CN Mythic got opened.. How the hell did they get that? Easy.. They dropped MILLIONS of gold to buy every single mythic/heroic BOE they can find from the auction house. And guess where those gold came from? Hint.. Wowtoken was extremely cheap back then...

[enigma77]

Sorta, but not the kind that gives unfair advantages to players who are willing to pay.

Example: pay to obtain otherwise unobtainable powerful gear that gives you an advantage over players who refuse to spend money

[rhorle]

but players selling Ahead of the curve + zillions pve boosts and pve/glad boost is not a problem ? it is more of a problem to me since the chat on most servers has become a permanent commercial

Using in-game currencies to offer services is not "pay to win". If that was the case then any game with the ability to trade is pay to win. Which then dilutes the meaning of the phrase to be irrelevant. Is a level boost technically pay to win? Yes. But in the spirit of the concept it is less so because the boosts are usually to to a lower level then current content. So you don't win anything relevant to others.

[Temp name]

Which means that WoW is pay-to-win in technical definitions only, not in practice.

It's not even pay to win by definition, since pay to win means that you pay for a huge advantage over people who don't buy that same thing. Like, if you could buy a level 63 character, that'd be hilariously broken, and pretty much required for anyone seriously playing the game. But no, they don't offer that. They offer you the option to get gold, which is already easily available in game, or a level 50 character, which takes like 25 hours to do if you're slow

[rhorle]

Here is a very simple fact. When complexity limit got world first mythic CN back in Dec 23, they had an average ilvl of 220.. That's literally 1 weeks after CN Mythic got opened.. How the hell did they get that? Easy.. They dropped MILLIONS of gold to buy every single mythic/heroic BOE they can find from the auction house. And guess where those gold came from? Hint.. Wowtoken was extremely cheap back then...

So? They also take out loans and have gold making farms with boosts in the "off-season". Buying the token doesn't make it pay to win because you don't buy the win from Blizzard. They can't buy any gear with that gold unless a player first sells them the gear. Does the Token, and gold, make things in the game far more accessible? Yep. But it isn't paying to win since you need some one in-game to offer the gold, BoE's, or other service.

[Temp name]

Here is a very simple fact. When complexity limit got world first mythic CN back in Dec 23, they had an average ilvl of 220.. That's literally 1 weeks after CN Mythic got opened.. How the hell did they get that? Easy.. They dropped MILLIONS of gold to buy every single mythic/heroic BOE they can find from the auction house. And guess where those gold came from? Hint.. Wowtoken was extremely cheap back then...

Here's a hint:
It was from boosting communities.


Wait, no, that wasn't a hint, that was the answer..
https://www.reddit.com/r/woweconomy/...t_40000_after/
Here's a thread from last world first race going over it
And a wowhead post going over it from dazar'alor: https://www.wowhead.com/news/methods...-studio-290137

[Lochton]

There also isn't anything to win via pissing matches in MMOC... yet here we are. "P2W is bad"..."WOW isn't P2W ARTARD!"

Personally, I don't think I'd call it P2W. P2W is buying characters that can't be gained via playing - or abilities that are more powerful than free abilities.

I WOULD call it Pay 2 Screw the economy... because all the money creates gold which punishes those who aren't paying by making things more expensive than they'd be otherwise. I can buy pots with gold... but when those pots cost 5x more because cash buyers are driving the prices up... shrug.

Until top guilds start "selling" runs through hard content - and that does happen occasionally... but even then THAT is limited and you'll generally not get TOP tier until right before it becomes obsolete...

But the money is not creating gold? You are just getting gold from another player.

[sam86]

Here's a hint:
It was from boosting communities.


Wait, no, that wasn't a hint, that was the answer..
https://www.reddit.com/r/woweconomy/...t_40000_after/
Here's a thread from last world first race going over it
And a wowhead post going over it from dazar'alor: https://www.wowhead.com/news/methods...-studio-290137

yeah sure they are radiant of honesty, i remember way back in tbc/wrath when they also were full of honesty, until literally the seller exposed them (and blizz still didn't ban for that reason, they banned for 'cheating' mechanics)
No idea about today hardcore raid community but back then unless u literally dedicate ur life 24/7 to wow u had to buy gold to be able to compete on top lvl, a new raid out u must get everything day 1, even a single gem is a must, ironically back then gold had little to no value for 99% of wow players since no mounts to sell or mini pets, gold was for consumables (which are cheap), repairs and done, having 20k is like having 200k, u only need gold for maintenance for most wow players, since gold didn't equal to any real life money

[Lochton]

Here is a very simple fact. When complexity limit got world first mythic CN back in Dec 23, they had an average ilvl of 220.. That's literally 1 weeks after CN Mythic got opened.. How the hell did they get that? Easy.. They dropped MILLIONS of gold to buy every single mythic/heroic BOE they can find from the auction house. And guess where those gold came from? Hint.. Wowtoken was extremely cheap back then...

Not to mention they borrowed a lot of gold too.

Then again, that method isn't new either.

[shoc]

Yes, BoE + WoW Token means Warcraft is 100% pay to win, up to and including 'pay to be #1'.

[sam86]

But the money is not creating gold? You are just getting gold from another player.

and he is creating gold from in-game mechanism, gold isn't constant in wow, u can get infinity gold as long there is a chineese gold farming bot herbing druid in necrolords
so money is getting gold from someone else, but gold itself is being made from anything

[Lochton]

So? They also take out loans and have gold making farms with boosts in the "off-season". Buying the token doesn't make it pay to win because you don't buy the win from Blizzard. They can't buy any gear with that gold unless a player first sells them the gear. Does the Token, and gold, make things in the game far more accessible? Yep. But it isn't paying to win since you need some one in-game to offer the gold, BoE's, or other service.

I've tried telling this point and they just twist it by saying, "Blizzard is making it P2W indirectly".

[rhorle]

Yes, BoE + WoW Token means Warcraft is 100% pay to win, up to and including 'pay to be #1'.

Nope. Because players supply BoE's. If no one lists a BoE for sale then you can't buy anything with gold even if you sourced that gold from a token. If buying a BoE makes the game pay to win then it has always been pay to win since Vanilla.

[Lochton]

and he is creating gold from in-game mechanism, gold isn't constant in wow, u can get infinity gold as long there is a chineese gold farming bot herbing druid in necrolords
so money is getting gold from someone else, but gold itself is being made from anything

Yes, that is common knowledge but your money does not create gold alone. You flipping your card does not generate the gold, someone actually puts in work for it, and buys a product from you, gaining game time and you gain gold.

[rhorle]

and he is creating gold from in-game mechanism, gold isn't constant in wow, u can get infinity gold as long there is a chineese gold farming bot herbing druid in necrolords so money is getting gold from someone else, but gold itself is being made from anything

That doesn't mean tokens create gold though. A token can only give gold if someone has the gold to buy a token. It just transfers.

[Rinnegan2]

as soon as you can buy something that another player had to earn / can't earn without spending real money it is instantly pay 2 win.

someone bought 1 level with real money? pay 2 win.

someone bought a mount with real money? pay 2 win.

someone bought a pet with real money? pay 2 win.

[Lochton]

Nope. Because players supply BoE's. If no one lists a BoE for sale then you can't buy anything with gold even if you sourced that gold from a token. If buying a BoE makes the game pay to win then it has always been pay to win since Vanilla.

Makes me ponder with this scenario...

... If it is P2W to buy BoE's with gold from Blizzard, have we just created a brand new issue? P2W Product scarcity/shortage?

[rhorle]

as soon as you can buy something that another player had to earn / can't earn without spending real money it is instantly pay 2 win.

That is silly. Every micro transaction shouldn't be considered pay to win. Just say you are against micro transactions or cash shops. Pay to win is a term that was created to create a difference between types of cash shop purchases.

[Malania]

as soon as you can buy something that another player had to earn / can't earn without spending real money it is instantly pay 2 win.

someone bought 1 level with real money? pay 2 win.

someone bought a mount with real money? pay 2 win.

someone bought a pet with real money? pay 2 win.

This is not the definition of p2w and it's not even rational. All Microtransactions are not pay to win.

I really think people are bogged down with some rather random and arbitrary concepts of what "winning" is in an mmo.