Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[deenman]

Then how does it exist to buy if you can't get it by playing normally? Do you not even understand how loot drops work in the game? Lol

no1 can realisticaly LOOT every piece of TF bis corrupted piece by just playing,unless you buy it from ah,and no player playing normaly will have all the bilions of gold you need to get them all on progress

[InflaterMouse]

You do it again.

I spent multiple months playing this game and I'm fully decked out in t3 gear. Buying gear is no advantage.

I spent multiple months leveling, buying a level 58 boost is no advantage.

No, that isn't the point. The point is if you level a character to level 58 and then boost a character to level 58 and stand them side by side to compare. Then you tell me how the boost gives an advantage. There won't be one.

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It is in the same ball park since both are forms of character power. Even if it isn't a loaded question as you say the same reasoning applies to gear right? Why do we have to create separate rules for gear? Why does pay to win change based on the item, advantage, phase of the moon, or current streamer influence?

Buying the gear doesn't get you an advantage over someone who earns the gear. So it can't be pay to win for the same reasons you claim leveling is not pay to win. But we both know that is silly. Because buying power is paying to win regardless of what you actually gain.

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It doesn't matter the direction a player takes after paying to win. The act of buying the boost is paying to win. Just because it is a form of it that doesn't really matter doesn't change that it is still paying to win.

rhorle, I respect your opinion and very much so how you express it. I just don't agree, and will bow out of the debate! Until next time

[WernerCD]

But the money is not creating gold? You are just getting gold from another player.

When people are incentivized to hack or farm gold for real world money, how does it not create gold?

[Clozer]

No, that isn't the point. The point is if you level a character to level 58 and then boost a character to level 58 and stand them side by side to compare. Then you tell me how the boost gives an advantage. There won't be one.

There is also no difference between someone who bought gear from the store and someone who grinded it himself? There is no point.

[rhorle]

No you DO NOT unless you are willing to spend shit tons of gold. It was estimated that Complexity Limit spend at least 30,000 USD worth of gold to buy all the BOE they used to achieve world first. That's exactly what P2W is! Even if it it doesn't automatically gives you a win, you have to pay to even have a chance to win!

The auction house does not give priority to anyone. So anyone has a chance to buy BoE's from there before wealthy individuals buy them up. If you are wagering you chance of competing based on BoE's you already didn't have a chance and are looking for a scapegoat to blame. You don't have to pay to even have a chance to win though. Because CL was still competing against other guilds and it isn't guaranteed that the boost from BoE's or real money would be what decided race.

[Ryzeth]

This argument is weak. Because shit tons of F2P mobile games lets you obtain premium currency through some sort of daily activities. By yours definition, none of those are P2W. The problem is those premium currency comes in so slow it's a hellova faster to just spend money to get them right a way (aka.. Starwar Galaxy of Heroes)..

Unless said premium currency gives you power that can't be obtained by just playing, then yes it's simply another pay for ease.

That seems to be you're overly narrow definition. Feigned outrage doesn't make you right, it just makes you look stupid.

Don't say someone's stupid when you can't even use the proper your. Hypocrisy isn't a good point to be arguing from.

Being able to spend $60 to skip 50 levels of content is then p2w by your definition. Since there is nothing in game that lets players skip that much of the leveling process without spending real money.

Nope. I very blatantly said an advantange others can't get. Levels aren't an advantage others can't get. Next.

[rhorle]

no1 can realisticaly LOOT every piece of TF bis corrupted piece by just playing,unless you buy it from ah,and no player playing normaly will have all the bilions of gold you need to get them all on progress

Plenty of people had it where a 5 million mount didn't drop their wealth that much. Also people can realistically get BoE loot since it all has to drop in the first place. It only sells for what people are willing to pay for it as well so it isn't the fault of the token that it sells for a lot. It does still mean you can get it from playing normally because that is why there are BoE's to sell to begin with.

You also didn't need BiS TF corruption in order to clear the content. If you strive for perfection you are going to have to pay a price. If you can't handle that price set your sights lower and the further changes to corruption reduced the impact anyways.

[Jester Joe]

Plenty of people had it where a 5 million mount didn't drop their wealth that much. Also people can realistically get BoE loot since it all has to drop in the first place. It only sells for what people are willing to pay for it as well so it isn't the fault of the token that it sells for a lot. It does still mean you can get it from playing normally because that is why there are BoE's to sell to begin with.

You also didn't need BiS TF corruption in order to clear the content. If you strive for perfection you are going to have to pay a price. If you can't handle that price set your sights lower and the further changes to corruption reduced the impact anyways.

WF race stacked masterful and void ritual because they needed it.

The raid was designed around having corruption, and most certainly not having stuff like "leech" as your corruption. That most certainly caused a situation where players at lower ends than WF needed the edge to help push.

[Marakara]

If you consider "pay 2 win" to mean "you can pay for an advantage that non-paying players can't get", then no it is clearly not

If you consider "pay 2 win" to mean "you can pay for an advantage that you wouldn't have otherwise", it is.

I don't agree with the 2nd statement, but I would in other games where you could pay to get more resources or refresh cooldowns (mobile games in general), so the line between the two is subjective and it's impossible to get a consensus. I feel strongly that you can advance in this game w/o paying and not have a tangible disadvantage w/o paying (I don't buy tokens/character boosts, but I don't see anything wrong with it I'm just cheap).

[rhorle]

WF race stacked masterful and void ritual because they needed it. The raid was designed around having corruption, and most certainly not having stuff like "leech" as your corruption. That most certainly caused a situation where players at lower ends than WF needed the edge to help push.

So in your opinion there is only BIS or Leech? There is nothing in between that was not best in slot but still good? No one needed BiS TF gear to clear Ny'alotha. You didn't need to spend "billions" on BoE's to get everything perfect.

[Jester Joe]

So in your opinion there is only BIS or Leech? There is nothing in between that was not best in slot but still good? No one needed BiS TF gear to clear Ny'alotha. You didn't need to spend "billions" on BoE's to get everything perfect.

You don't need to keep strawmanning to make your argument. I clearly said "like", meaning it was merely a single example.

And there's a reason why the WF guilds ended up in so much debt from trying to get Nyalotha cleared on mythic. There's a reason why everyone stacked specific corruptions and begged Blizzard to give a way to target corruptions.

I would doubt you'll find many, if any, Mythic N'zoth kills that didn't stack BiS corruptions.

[rhorle]

You don't need to keep strawmanning to make your argument. I clearly said "like", meaning it was merely a single example.

What? You are the one that equated me saying that you didn't need BiS TF Corrupted gear to "leach". The reason why world first guilds wanted every possible advantage is because they wanted every possible advantage they could get. I've never denied that lol. And of course people would stack corruptions that were simmed to be the best. Why are you mentioning things that no one has disputed?

Lol. Mythic N'zoth kills still do not change the fact that you didn't need perfect BIS gear in order to do the content. Not everyone is world first caliber and it is dishonest to even claim so. You clearly haven't spent much time in the community despite being a mod for this fan site if you don't think that people put to much importance on best in slot and everything else as being worthless.

[Jester Joe]

What? You are the one that equated me saying that you didn't need BiS TF Corrupted gear to "leach". The reason why world first guilds wanted every possible advantage is because they wanted every possible advantage they could get. I've never denied that lol. And of course people would stack corruptions that were simmed to be the best. Why are you mentioning things that no one has disputed?

Lol. Mythic N'zoth kills still do not change the fact that you didn't need perfect BIS gear in order to do the content. Not everyone is world first caliber and it is dishonest to even claim so. You clearly haven't spent much time in the community despite being a mod for this fan site if you don't think that people put to much importance on best in slot and everything else as being worthless.

...And this is why I said I shouldn't bother earlier. I gave you a perfectly legit response twice, and you give dismissive arrogant "Lol" and mockery instead.

Last time saying this. I didn't equate what you said to "leech". I pointed out that you would be wrong in saying people "didn't need to stack BiS corruption" because people DID have to to clear Mythic. I pointed out how the power scale between corruptions was godawful, because you had stuff that could literally cause fire mages to be able to melt bosses without any other classes on heroic within 30 seconds even (masterful) and then you had ones that would give you a bit of leech, or take less AoE damage.

The power scale was drastically off on them, hence people had to move to stacking their BiS corruption. I would venture to say you didn't even do much of Nya'lotha yourself if you think it's as simple as comparing it to "BiS".

[rhorle]

...And this is why I said I shouldn't bother earlier. I gave you a perfectly legit response twice, and you give dismissive arrogant "Lol" and mockery instead.

Saying I am straw manning is a polite legit response? Why is it that every time you meet a little bit of resistance you start slinging insults. Remember when you give me shit for responding to a post you made that didn't quote me? Why did you do the same if you were being honest and legit? Weird right? You always create these rules for everyone else but rarely follow them yourself.

Last time saying this. I didn't equate what you said to "leech". I pointed out that you would be wrong in saying people "didn't need to stack BiS corruption" because people DID have to to clear Mythic.

You did because you literally are the one that brought leech up as the alternative. LMAO. At least have the honest to stand by what you actually said. You also didn't need BIS TF Corruption in order to clear Mythic. There were alternatives that would work that were not bis but also not as worthless as leech. I don't have to reckon to know that you did zero Nyalotha to think that the only viable gear was best in slot.

Best in slot has never been the only viable gear.

[Jester Joe]

Saying I am straw manning is a polite legit response? Why is it that every time you meet a little bit of resistance you start slinging insults. Remember when you give me shit for responding to a post you made that didn't quote me? Why did you do the same if you were being honest and legit? Weird right? You always create these rules for everyone else but rarely follow them yourself.

I mean, if you're misrepresenting my post and putting words in my statement that I didn't say or purposely twisting them, I'm fairly certain it isn't rude anywhere to point out "hey, that isn't what I said". But every single one of your responses has been nothing but hostile.

You did because you literally are the one that brought leech up as the alternative. LMAO. At least have the honest to stand by what you actually said. You also didn't need BIS TF Corruption in order to clear Mythic. There were alternatives that would work that were not bis but also not as worthless as leech. I don't have to reckon to know that you did zero Nyalotha to think that the only viable gear was best in slot.

Best in slot has never been the only viable gear.

"LIKE leech". Meaning "This is an example of one case", not "This is the only case".

Also not that I care for this kind of trash, but I did clear Mythic N'zoth, so I'm telling you the exact situation I've seen encountered myself along with plenty of other guilds.
BiS gear isn't comparable to BiS corruption.

Lest you forgot, there was a bug at the start that corruption would proc on anything, including leveling gear, and even then Infinite Stars 3 on a low level green would outperform level 120 gear. That's how bad it was.

[Samuraijake]

You can buy gold with RL money. Gold can be used for anything in the game... including high level boes found in the world.

Yes its pay to win.

[rhorle]

"LIKE leech". Meaning "This is an example of one case", not "This is the only case".

As the only thing brought as "not bis" in your argument. And yet you think I have to twist and put words in your mouth. Lmao. If you didn't care for the kind of trash that is a epeen contest over clearing raids then why did you bring it up in the first place as way to try and insult me? Lol. This is just like the time you called everyone nerds for talking about wanda vision after you gave your two cents. You insult to deflect then try to make yourself seem superior.

BIS gear is BIS corruption. Best in slot never meant highest item level. But hey I'm twisting words or putting words into your mouth or some such. Blah Blah. Right? I have never stated that corruption was not stupidly unbalanced. So how could I forget that? Blizzard did a lot of work to get corruption into a decent system. That still doesn't change anything that I said.

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You can buy gold with RL money. Gold can be used for anything in the game... including high level boes found in the world. Yes its pay to win.

Gold only buys things that other players offer up for sale. It is not more pay to win then it was prior to the token being introduced.

[Semihagez]

The auction house does not give priority to anyone. So anyone has a chance to buy BoE's from there before wealthy individuals buy them up. If you are wagering you chance of competing based on BoE's you already didn't have a chance and are looking for a scapegoat to blame. You don't have to pay to even have a chance to win though. Because CL was still competing against other guilds and it isn't guaranteed that the boost from BoE's or real money would be what decided race.

The thing here to remember is.. real money = gold. So basically you are telling me that if a game gives everyone get an equal opportunity to buy something using real money, then it's not pay 2 win since everyone has the same chance. If that's your definition, then there is absolutely no pay2win game in this world because every F2P mobile game doesn't discriminate who can spend real world money or not. So even if some whale drop 5 grand on some in game item that boost him, that is not pay 2 win because everyone else can also drop 5 grand to buy the same thing as well.. Yeah.. ok.. your semanetic is just weird makes zero sense.

[Jester Joe]

As the only thing brought as "not bis" in your argument. And yet you think I have to twist and put words in your mouth. Lmao. If you didn't care for the kind of trash that is a epeen contest over clearing raids then why did you bring it up in the first place as way to try and insult me? Lol. This is just like the time you called everyone nerds for talking about wanda vision after you gave your two cents. You insult to deflect then try to make yourself seem superior.

I'm not even sure where to start with this.

I don't care about "epeen contests". Plenty of people around these forums don't even play anymore, which doesn't make their input less valid, but on the same note it might make them unaware of truly how awful something might have been. For all I know, you haven't played since Wrath. Saying that you might not have spent much time in Nya'lotha or none at all isn't some litmus test of skill level. I don't know why you would think that.

On top of that, I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about calling people "nerds", as I have literally have a grand total of 9 posts in the WandaVision thread, and not a single one anywhere has the word "nerd". Hell, I even went back to that thread to see what you meant and it was literally you and me both disagreeing with Endus so I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about and you probably have me confused with someone else, which is some weird chip on your shoulder to have.

So you can go see yourself, I grabbed a random post around the time I was posting in there

BIS gear is BIS corruption. Best in slot never meant highest item level. But hey I'm twisting words or putting words into your mouth or some such. Blah Blah. Right? I have never stated that corruption was not stupidly unbalanced. So how could I forget that? Blizzard did a lot of work to get corruption into a decent system. That still doesn't change anything that I said.

Corruption literally nearly 80% of a fire mages damage.

That isn't nearly as close as having BiS slot gear stat wise. At all. It's a huge power swing from having any different corruptions than Masterful.

[rhorle]

The thing here to remember is.. real money = gold. So basically you are telling me that if a game gives everyone get an equal opportunity to buy something using real money, then it's not pay 2 win since everyone has the same chance. If that's your definition, then there is absolutely no pay2win game in this world because every F2P mobile game doesn't discriminate who can spend real world money or not. So even if some whale drop 5 grand on some in game item that boost him, that is not pay 2 win because everyone else can also drop 5 grand to buy the same thing as well.. Yeah.. ok.. your semanetic is just weird makes zero sense.

Not all gold is gained with real money unless you are getting all philosophical about how we all pay to play the game so its all pay to win. Buying gold only makes things accessible. You can't buy a boost if no one is offering to take you on a boost run. You can't buy a BoE is there are no one is selling a BoE. Everyone has the same oppurtunity in the game to make gold and buy a BoE item.

Each token bought is gold that someone had to make somehow in the game. I have never once equated pay to win to equal chance to spend real money. Of course everyone has the equal chance to spend real money duh. I have several times stated that pay to win is buying power. A token doesn't cause you to buy power it just gives you the chance to do everything that gold allows.

Gold is what allows you buy power and you can do that regardless of spending real money or not. The argument you think I am making isn't even semantics so that is why it makes zero sense to you. It is all a misunderstanding on your part.

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I don't care about "epeen contests".

Then why try and use it as an insult? If people that don't play still offer valid input then why would me having done Nya'lotha even matter? You contradict yourself right away. You always have some excuse ready for why you are not wrong or didn't actually do something when everyone can see your posts and insults. Weird huh? the wandavision thing is actually another mod my bad. They fall back on semantics, strawman, and other similar insults just like you do which is why I confused the two. Looking back they might not have actually called anyone nerds but didn't dispute it when I said they did /shurg.

Corruption literally nearly 80% of a fire mages damage. That isn't nearly as close as having BiS slot gear stat wise. At all. It's a huge power swing from having any different corruptions than Masterful.

Notice how you qaulified it as stat wise. I didn't include a qualifier like that because the best in slot gear is not always the best item level gear. It has been something that has existed since 2004. It has got better over the years and Blizzard has tried to make item level be the only thing that matters. But they haven't always gotten that right. But to be fair if two items had the same exact corruption but different item levels then the higher item level would be better.

Corruptions were a huge power swing. I never stated otherwise. I only stated that the bis gear was not the only viable gear. There were other viable corruptions then the best one for your class. Blizzard was doing a lot of hotfix balancing to both buff and nerf. With the later changes to the system it got a lot better but there were still more then one viable corruption. Everything else is you trying to argue things I never disputed.