Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Drusin]

I mean.. Purchase currency with real life cash, use currency to purchase carries/mythic gear off AH. By definition, it's P2W. Doesn't matter what's inbetween. At the end of the day, you're still paying cash for power.

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See above.

Also, completing a raid is also winning. Paying cash, receiving gold, then spending it on someone to carry you to the end of a raid is also winning. Begins with pay, ends with win.

/Thread

Good morning Stardrift

Anyways, I'm not sure what your post says, I've already said that if you define p2w = winning = success then in your opinion wow will be p2w. Everyone has their own opinion of the meaning.

[rhorle]

So basically you're saying p2w doesn't exist. And that's utterly asinine.

No. I've told you this before as well and you even went "100% this" to me saying as such. Pay to Win exists but it is based on an advantage of power. It is not based on personal definitions of win like getting X mount, X transmog or other non-power things.

[iinverse]

This is pretty much the mentality of the WoW fanboys in this thread.

P2W is you pay, you win. But in wow if you're shitty, you will not win even if you throw thousands bucks into game. You can just pay to other guys for win it for you. But its in any game (not nessesary MMO, all other computer games and even games in real life too), so this means any game is P2W.

[P for Pancetta]

So, game-time is direct P2W, is what you are saying? You aren't getting gold directly from Blizzard, but from a player, so indirect.


It is gambling, and if you won a tradeable item, you could take it to the game, and get gold for it, so indirect P2W.

Is the item approved by Blizzard? Yes.
Is the item designed and generated by Blizzard? Yes.
Is the item produced by Blizzard? No, it is commissioned to another company.
Is the item able to be purchased with real money currency? Yes.
Is the item subject to gambling? Yes.
Is the item able to be claimed in-game? Yes.
Is the item able to be traded in-game? Yes, some are made with the intention to be traded, not all.
Is the item able to be sold for gold in-game? Yes

So, with more steps, is the TCG BoE item a product approved by Blizzard with the ability to be sold by a person who paid real money currency to earn gold? Yes.

So, with fewer steps, is the Token item a product approved by Blizzard with the ability to be sold by a person who paid real money currency to earn gold? Yes.

Or is it the steps that do not make it P2W? Because, a person can legally, without breaking ToS, make more steps to handle a token.

The sheer fact that it is gambling, and still gives you an advantage in-game if you win makes it much worse than a token.

No like I said before a subscription is Pay 2 Play, not Pay 2 Win these are distinct things read up on it as you keep confusing these things.

Your logic is flawed. Yes you can sell the TGC cards online but they're not designed to. and neither does blizzard receive any of the money the reseller asks for the card or code. Let me dissect your innate ramblings again:

Is the item approved by Blizzard? Yes.
Obviously.
Is the item designed and generated by Blizzard? Yes.
Maybe? I don't know I think it's more likely it's a collaboration between Blizzard and the company selling the cards.
Is the item produced by Blizzard? No, it is commissioned to another company.
Is the item able to be purchased with real money currency? Yes.
Yes and No. Yes you can purchase these cards/codes from other people. No you can't purchase these cards or codes from blizzard or the card company.
Is the item subject to gambling? Yes.
No the item isn't, what does this sentence even mean? what is being subject to gambling for an inanimate object? The way the card game is distributed is the gambling aspect of it, the loot0cards increase this effect. Owning or buying a loot card has nothing to do with gambling.
Is the item able to be claimed in-game? Yes.
No you can't claim the card ingame, you claim a reward based on the code on the card. You can still sell the card itself later.
Is the item able to be traded in-game? Yes, some are made with the intention to be traded, not all.
Is the item able to be sold for gold in-game? Yes
Both of these are true but none of these arguments you posted prove that this is P2W. through inventing convoluted paths paved with nonsensical arguments you're able to connect any two dots. But that doesn't mean its true.

The design of P2W is to generate more revenue by offering people to pay to gain an unfair advantage over others who play the game. The trading card game is based on the game but beyond the codes there are no interactions between the two products. The addition of the loot cards isn't P2W as you were never guaranteed to get one. The very reason that blizzard doesn't directly benefit from card sales is enough to lay down this preposterous claim (yes they do indirectly benefit from it as the mounts are exceptionally expensive and buying a few tokens might help in that aspect).

The tendency to oversimplify complex things leads to one creating a dichotomy between your understanding of the subject and the reality behind it.

It's not a hard topic at all. You obviously know very little about this topic, the industry behind it and coming up with arguments. Why choose to die on such a hill?

[TheRevenantHero]

P2W is you pay, you win. But in wow if you're shitty, you will not win even if you throw thousands bucks into game. You can just pay to other guys for win it for you. But its in any game (not nessesary MMO, all other computer games and even games in real life too), so this means any game is P2W.

No. That's not what p2w means. Because if that was true then there isn't a single p2w game in existence. P2W is when you can spend real money to gain an advantage over players NOT spending real money. WoW allows you to spend $60 to skip 50 levels of content, directly buying power for your character that gives you an advantage over players NOT spending $60. Therefore, WoW is p2w.

[Pretorian]

...The definition of the word win has also been debunked, pay2win is about creating an unfair advantage...

Advantage over WHO?! Buying a boost so I can skip some levels does not give me an advantage over anyone, it just saves me time. I'm not buying max level straight away or super duper armor with it. It's just an optional QoL feature.

You buy a token from another player that farmed that gold in game, via Blizzard's approved system called Auction House. If no players farm gold, no players can buy tokens. It's a form of trade goods. WHAT you do with the gold in game afterwards, is not Blizzard's business; if you choose to buy a mount, leather, herbs or a CN boost, it's your choice but seems like this directly affects the definition of P2W now, isn't it?

P2W would be if would have, let's say, tier armor systems where in game you have T1 to T5 available to anyone but in the Blizzard shop you can buy T6 and T7 with $$, and those two you cannot acquire them in game by any means. Or a mount that's 20% faster than any other mounts in game and can only be acquired with real money.
As long as everyone pays the same subscription fee, has access to the full game, the items sold in the official shop are just cosmetic and do not give you any unfair power advantage against other players, the game cannot be classed as P2W.

What players choose to do between them in the game should not affect the definition of the game itself.

[TheRevenantHero]

Advantage over WHO?! Buying a boost so I can skip some levels does not give me an advantage over anyone, it just saves me time. I'm not buying max level straight away or super duper armor with it. It's just an optional QoL feature.

You buy a token from another player that farmed that gold in game, via Blizzard's approved system called Auction House. If no players farm gold, no players can buy tokens. It's a form of trade goods. WHAT you do with the gold in game afterwards, is not Blizzard's business; if you choose to buy a mount, leather, herbs or a CN boost, it's your choice but seems like this directly affects the definition of P2W now, isn't it?

P2W would be if would have, let's say, tier armor systems where in game you have T1 to T5 available to anyone but in the Blizzard shop you can buy T6 and T7 with $$, and those two you cannot acquire them in game by any means. Or a mount that's 20% faster than any other mounts in game and can only be acquired with real money.
As long as everyone pays the same subscription fee, has access to the full game, the items sold in the official shop are just cosmetic and do not give you any unfair power advantage against other players, the game cannot be classed as P2W.

What players choose to do between them in the game should not affect the definition of the game itself.

You literally explained how it's an advantage. It's skipping numerous hours of time. If you don't see how that's an advantage then you are either blind or you just refuse to say anything negative about woW.

[iinverse]

No. That's not what p2w means. Because if that was true then there isn't a single p2w game in existence. P2W is when you can spend real money to gain an advantage over players NOT spending real money. WoW allows you to spend $60 to skip 50 levels of content, directly buying power for your character that gives you an advantage over players NOT spending $60. Therefore, WoW is p2w.

I can pay for someone who will win any game for me. All games are p2w then.

WoW allows you to spend $60 to skip 50 levels of content, directly buying power for your character that gives you an advantage over players NOT spending $60.

Its convenience, not advantage. Advantage is to buy scroll which adds +20% crit to your toon over all that f2p player have.

Because if that was true then there isn't a single p2w game in existence.

There are a lot of such games on mobile. Also there are some PC games exists with things that aren't accessible for non-paying players, including direct increase of toon powers (like runes in Allods Online).

[NatePsy]

There is no "winning the game" in a MMO, but the guy spending real money would have clear advantages, and that's unfair, and that's what P2W is all about.

Exactly. Before tokens, you could buy gold yes but it wasn't official. People don't seem to understand that gold is the currency for raid/arena/dungeon boosts and by selling tokens, Blizzard facilitates paying to win now.

[TheRevenantHero]

I can pay for someone who will win any game for me. All games are p2w then.


Its convenience, not advantage. Advantage is to buy scroll which adds +20% crit to your toon over all that f2p player have.


There are a lot of such games on mobile. Also there are some PC games exists with things that aren't accessible for non-paying players, including direct increase of toon powers (like runes in Allods Online).

That is such an utterly asinine thing to say lmao. Your example is beyind stupid.

And it IS an advantage because you are literally skipping 50 levels of content. That's not something you can achieve in game and therefore it's p2w. And by your definition, p2w doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if it has an in game shop. If there's no ending, you can't win and therefore p2w games don't exist.

And once again, with your last comment, WoW is p2w then. Because as I said, you can't immediately skip 50 levels of leveling without paying so therefore it's p2w.

[Lochton]

No like I said before a subscription is Pay 2 Play, not Pay 2 Win these are distinct things read up on it as you keep confusing these things.

I was talking game-time, not subscription service. The token is, at your direct purchase, a product of game-time.

Your logic is flawed. Yes you can sell the TGC cards online but they're not designed to. and neither does blizzard receive any of the money the reseller asks for the card or code. Let me dissect your innate ramblings again:

But the TCG loot cards are designed to trade, and Blizzard DID receive money from the TCG sales when it was printed.

Is the item approved by Blizzard? Yes.
Obviously.

Something we can agree on.

Is the item designed and generated by Blizzard? Yes.
Maybe? I don't know I think it's more likely it's a collaboration between Blizzard and the company selling the cards.

No, it was designed and generated by Blizzard, you even claim it in-game.

Is the item produced by Blizzard? No, it is commissioned to another company.
Is the item able to be purchased with real money currency? Yes.
Yes and No. Yes you can purchase these cards/codes from other people. No you can't purchase these cards or codes from blizzard or the card company.

So, now we're saying, that if there are more steps, it is not P2W, even though Blizzard profits from the sale of it when it was produced? Nowadays, it is not produced but you still use your real money to purchase it, with a chance to gain gold if tradeable. It stops being P2W once every TCG code has been claimed or expired. Currently no date on expiration but it has been a topic apparently.

Is the item subject to gambling? Yes.
No the item isn't, what does this sentence even mean? what is being subject to gambling for an inanimate object? The way the card game is distributed is the gambling aspect of it, the loot0cards increase this effect. Owning or buying a loot card has nothing to do with gambling.

Is the TCG packs subject to gambling or not? Yes, it is RNG, it was deemed by higher-ups that things such as loot boxes and collection cards are gambling.

Is the item able to be claimed in-game? Yes.
No you can't claim the card ingame, you claim a reward based on the code on the card. You can still sell the card itself later.

You can claim the item in-game. You go to a website with the code, that website generates a code that you can use in-game, in Booty Bay to get your item, and making the loot card code invalid for future use.

Is the item able to be traded in-game? Yes, some are made with the intention to be traded, not all.
Is the item able to be sold for gold in-game? Yes
Both of these are true but none of these arguments you posted prove that this is P2W. through inventing convoluted paths paved with nonsensical arguments you're able to connect any two dots. But that doesn't mean its true.

You, others, and the definition states, that Pay2Win is when you pull out your credit card and use it for an in-game advantage is Pay2Win. Do you, or do you not, pull out your credit card to purchase an approved TCG pack where within there can be an item that can be sold for gold? It is just more steps.

The design of P2W is to generate more revenue by offering people to pay to gain an unfair advantage over others who play the game. The trading card game is based on the game but beyond the codes there are no interactions between the two products. The addition of the loot cards isn't P2W as you were never guaranteed to get one. The very reason that blizzard doesn't directly benefit from card sales is enough to lay down this preposterous claim (yes they do indirectly benefit from it as the mounts are exceptionally expensive and buying a few tokens might help in that aspect).

But Blizzard did benefit for the card sales back in the day? And the TCG loot item does offer advantages to someone? The fact that it is a gambling chance for you to get an item makes it a far worse P2W than the token, and the TCG cards that can be traded are still on the market but now it is out of Blizzard's and the production company's grip to control the card, and thus the touch of P2W stopped when the cards stopped being produced, which was in 2013.

The tendency to oversimplify complex things leads to one creating a dichotomy between your understanding of the subject and the reality behind it.

To me it is simple to see once you and others locked themselves to the argument that "credit card use to gain (in many different arguments) any sort of advantage = P2W", it went far off the rail when "visual advantage" was brought on the discussion by one, or the fact that any interaction with gold use from a token was P2W by another.

[Lochton]

Exactly. Before tokens, you could buy gold yes but it wasn't official. People don't seem to understand that gold is the currency for raid/arena/dungeon boosts and by selling tokens, Blizzard facilitates paying to win now.

Naw, I already gave the floor to that, just trying to point out that if it is that simplified, then TCG BoE loot made WoW P2W between October 2006 and March 2013.

[rhorle]

Its convenience, not advantage. Advantage is to buy scroll which adds +20% crit to your toon over all that f2p player have.

A level skip is most certainly a advantage and power related. It is also directly bought from the developers for money. The level boosts are pay to win. Many accept them is perfectly fine because the power you do gain is of low relevance to end game activities since it puts you at the previous expansions level cap.

[rhorle]

Exactly. Before tokens, you could buy gold yes but it wasn't official. People don't seem to understand that gold is the currency for raid/arena/dungeon boosts and by selling tokens, Blizzard facilitates paying to win now.

No. Using gold to gain advantages is a normal part of the game. Blizzard is facilitating the trade of gold. What a person does with that gold is up to them and is not pay to win just because some, or all, of the gold came from a token.

[rhorle]

You buy gold from Blizzard, you pay other dude to carry you = You Win = You are ahead of any random dude.

You don't buy gold from Blizzard but from another player. The token does not create gold. You pay $20 for a $15 token that is used to trade gold with another player. What happens with that gold is irrelevant to the transaction for that gold.

[shoc]

The token is direct P2W your opinion is irrelevant.
The TCG lootcards are more complicated, Tcg cardpacks did not guarantee a lootcard. It's not P2W but it is a form of gambling. Peer reviewed research has shown a clear correlation between spending patterns on booster style games and problematic gambling behavior

Gatcha-style gameplay and therefore TCG is still a form of pay-to-win, the biggest spenders in freemium MMOs spend upwards of $100k+ on gatcha rolls, and it's still Pay-to-Win when they do it. You don't 'win' very much, just rare mounts and cosmetics, but you still gain something based on the consumption of real life money.

[Lochton]

You buy gold from Blizzard, you pay other dude to carry you = You Win = You are ahead of any random dude.

You buy game-time from Blizzard, you choose to sell it on the auction house for gold, you then use that gold to get carried = indirect P2W.

I did not disagree on that, did I, or was it the term I used you didn't understand?

[rhorle]

You buy with cash a Token, get tons gold gold that other people would take days to get = You win = P2W

Merely having gold doesn't win you anything. Otherwise you would have already lost to the people that traded their gold for your token. Right?

[iinverse]

That is such an utterly asinine thing to say lmao. Your example is beyind stupid.

Its according to your definition of P2W.

And it IS an advantage because you are literally skipping 50 levels of content. That's not something you can achieve in game and therefore it's p2w. And by your definition, p2w doesn't exist. It doesn't matter if it has an in game shop. If there's no ending, you can't win and therefore p2w games don't exist.

Nobody cares, that you leveled your toon 2 days faster. It doesnt play any role even on start of xpac, because of ranked content release delay is several lockouts.

[Stardrift]

Sure it does. The currency and the system for that currency matter. If gold was given out in a trickle and primary gained by micro transaction then it would be pay to win. If it was sourced by Blizzard it would be closer to pay to win. If the win was coming from Blizzard it would be pay to win.

As it is the win comes from players after using a normal in-game currency. It doesn't matter the source of that currency as we all pay at some point in order to get gold. Because of the subscription price right? If the subscription price has not made the game pay to win then obviously indirect links to real money are not relevant.

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"I also told you that I can't estimate the times but told you that I can sometimes clear a zone of Anima quests before my HS is off cool down"
"It was pretty easy to clear the 11 or so Anima quests up each day in an hour of play. Even opening chests can work towards requirements on some callings to make it even faster."

I answered it. I just didn't give the answer you and him were apparently looking for. My estimate of up to 2,500 is not wrong. You can get 1,500 to 2,500 so when talking about ranges you include the low end and the top end. Right? Both you and him are looking for any little detail so you can shout at the top of your lungs how wrong it is. When it still doesn't change that there is a relatively easy way to get at least 150k a week.

Is it practical for everyone? Nope. But that wasn't the original question was it? Let me guess you don't even know the original question right? Why didn't you attack the other poster for not answer questions as well? Weird right?

Have you played the game recently to time how long it takes to do a calling? You don't need to be a raider in order to do World Quests quick. World Content gear tops off at 194 with Covenant gear at 196. It is extremely easy to gear alts to out gear world content. 190 is not very under geared for world content. You clearly have not played the game recently at all if you think that is the case. I also never said it was casual. I said after set up it is relatively easy to do a calling which it objectively is. 3 chests or rares is easy. 4 to 5 world quests is easy. Two floors of Torghast is easy (layer 1). All of the callings are easy.

If you struggle, even at 190 gear, to finish any calling then the problem is skill level of the player and not the game.

The win does come from Blizzard. It's in their product.

Pay money -> receive currency -> buy power with currency. P2W