Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[Dhrizzle]

I don't agree with this logic, but that's okay. If I set that aside for a second, can you explain to me what *would* be p2w, or what *would* be a competitive advantage?

If I follow your logic, I'm not sure any game is capable of being P2W, unless paying was the only possible way to acquire/achieve anything. Am I getting that right?

World of Tanks used to sell gold ammo that penetrated armour to cause extra damage, you could only get it by paying cash.

RIFT had item slots you had to pay cash to unlock, without them you would always miss out on stats for your character

[rhorle]

If we don't agree here, that's fine, but that's about as clear as I can be on my position I guess.

How can it be any clearer? You are saying that buying gold equals pay to win. I am saying that it is not pay to win because it does not include any wins in the transaction. Lol. I don't get how you can be confused here. Simply buying gold doesn't win you anything. You still have to do something with that gold. You are saying that you won prior to actually doing anything that gets what you define as the win.

Your own argument says that buying the gold isn't pay to win, but using the gold to get a win is pay to win. All the while saying using the gold to get a boost can't be pay to win because it uses normal game currency. You are super confused but keep trying to push that confusion off on others instead of yourself.

[potis]

Fine, let's use the MDI as a different example. Is that not evidence of a win?

Ignoring that you're calling your own personal opinion "fact" and mine "Feelings/opinions" (very cool), what would *you* define as a "win" then? Like is it even possible to win at a video game?

How about in life broadly? What is a win?

I am not calling my opinion anything, these are facts written by devs/the company itself years ago, which you either lack the knowledge of, or ignore in order to boost your opinion.

Again, MDI is like Arena, something created extra in the game itself to create a win situation, which all started from the e-sports explosion in 2006, which failed spectacularly and got ignore by then the biggest e-sport site because it was that shitty unbalanced.

MDI is Blizzards attempt to have any sort of interesting esport related to WoW.

Again, the secret is in the word -GAME GENRE-, do you understand the term?

You can win a MOBA game, you can win a strategy game, you can win a single player campaign mode, because the game finally finishes at some point and a winner is declared through a game mechanic forced ending.

MMORPGS do not have that function, because 1)They do not end 2)Your personal achievement on the matter is irrelevant, its literally claiming that if you log off in a MOBA with score 1-0 despite your team losing 1-50 on kills, you won the game, because you had 1-0.

Do you understand now why you are wrong, or do i need to write another essay for you to learn game genres?

[Echo of Soul]

WoW is a MMORPG, there is no win, they introduced a "win" for the extra aspect of "Arena PvP" and maybe there you can claim you won something.

You should let Blizzard know. If you can't win they can just sell gear directly in the store.

[Fendrith]

So if I think that logging into the game each day is a win, would you agree that WoW is pay to win since you have to pay to log in? That is the logic you are using. That if a person thinks that X is a win then that is how you can win the game. The two of you are arguing over having win be defined by the individual or the game.

The game clearly defines a "win" as part of the Hall of Fame. The first 100 guilds on each faction. After that restrictions are ended. If you get things after that you maybe be getting a win for your individual group but you are not getting a win for anything outside of that.

So Hall of Fame is a win, but CE isn't? Aren't they both just achievements?

So in your absurdist take on my argument, logging into the game is a win bc you say so, but things like m+ achievements aren't even though there's an MDI?

Very cool.

What is a reasonable win?

[rhorle]

MMORPGS do not have that function, because 1)They do not end 2)Your personal achievement on the matter is irrelevant, its literally claiming that if you log off in a MOBA with score 1-0 despite your team losing 1-50 on kills, you won the game, because you had 1-0.

To be fair all games have an end point. It is why we have to wait for new content patches and new tiers of content. There is always a set end point for a tier in WoW. Clearing a raid is equal to winning the MOBA match. It is not equal to logging off with 1-50 on kills as you try to equate it to. Furthermore Blizzard has set clear "Win" conditions each tier by creating the Hall of Fame.

So even if you ignore the group/personal level of winning a tier Blizzard has included a game wide way to win the tier. Be in the first 100 groups for each faction to clear new raid tier.

[Fendrith]

I am not calling my opinion anything, these are facts written by devs/the company itself years ago, which you either lack the knowledge of, or ignore in order to boost your opinion.

Again, MDI is like Arena, something created extra in the game itself to create a win situation, which all started from the e-sports explosion in 2006, which failed spectacularly and got ignore by then the biggest e-sport site because it was that shitty unbalanced.

MDI is Blizzards attempt to have any sort of interesting esport related to WoW.

Again, the secret is in the word -GAME GENRE-, do you understand the term?

You can win a MOBA game, you can win a strategy game, you can win a single player campaign mode, because the game finally finishes at some point and a winner is declared through a game mechanic forced ending.

MMORPGS do not have that function, because 1)They do not end 2)Your personal achievement on the matter is irrelevant, its literally claiming that if you log off in a MOBA with score 1-0 despite your team losing 1-50 on kills, you won the game, because you had 1-0.

Do you understand now why you are wrong, or do i need to write another essay for you to learn game genres?

Nice. Thanks for the insult. Really great discussion here. I do understand your point, so thanks for clarifying it. Would've appreciated that without you being an asshole lmao

I don't really agree with you, but the debate about what "winning" is, or that there are perhaps valid definitions of "winning" beyond literal win/lose scenarios isn't that interesting. In any case, I understand your perspective clearly now

[Clozer]

For the people who still didn't understand. There is no need to argue. P2W is widely known for buying ingame advantages with real moneys.

Buying levels is an ingame advantage that was bought with real moneys.

Conclusion: WoW is P2W.

It's that simple. Really.

[potis]

To be fair all games have an end point. It is why we have to wait for new content patches and new tiers of content. There is always a set end point for a tier in WoW. Clearing a raid is equal to winning the MOBA match. It is not equal to logging off with 1-50 on kills as you try to equate it to. Furthermore Blizzard has set clear "Win" conditions each tier by creating the Hall of Fame.

So even if you ignore the group/personal level of winning a tier Blizzard has included a game wide way to win the tier. Be in the first 100 groups for each faction to clear new raid tier.

Sure, lets accept that Hall of Fame has created a 3rd win situation along with the Gladiator Mount of the 0.1% top PvPers and the MDI winners, would really love to see people buying Gladiator Mount and win MDI with their money, Hall of Fame was attempted and guilds got destroyed/banned instantly.

[rhorle]

So Hall of Fame is a win, but CE isn't? Aren't they both just achievements?

Hall of Fame is much more then just an achievement since it also has a official leaderboard on the WoW website that lists it. Equating the two shows how dishonest you are being. If buying gold is a win then logging in is a win. Logging in is required to do anything that "wins" you the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Sure, lets accept that Hall of Fame has created a 3rd win situation along with the Gladiator Mount of the 0.1% top PvPers and the MDI winners, would really love to see people buying Gladiator Mount and win MDI with their money, Hall of Fame was attempted and guilds got destroyed/banned instantly.

MDI is a separate game. Separate servers. Seperate rules. Using it as the only win is like saying a football team didn't win unless they also won the Superbowl.

- - - Updated - - -

Buying levels is an ingame advantage that was bought with real moneys.

The amusing part is some of the people that find the token to be pay to win don't think the level boost is pay to win.

[Fendrith]

Sure, lets accept that Hall of Fame has created a 3rd win situation along with the Gladiator Mount of the 0.1% top PvPers and the MDI winners, would really love to see people buying Gladiator Mount and win MDI with their money, Hall of Fame was attempted and guilds got destroyed/banned instantly.

People definitely buy gladiator mounts, but your point is taken regardless. Your definition of "winning" is, in my opinion, absurdly narrow.

[potis]

Nice. Thanks for the insult. Really great discussion here. I do understand your point, so thanks for clarifying it. Would've appreciated that without you being an asshole lmao

I was never an asshole, but here is an example for you of an actual P2W.

When Neverwinter Online was released, 7 years ago? Or whatever it was, after the first week, you find out that in order to progress your sockets/enchants past the 6th tier , up to the existing 10th tier, you had to buy from the Cash Shop, the item that made the success 100%.

The item didnt exist as a drop for at least 2 more weeks where the 1 only dungeon that would drop it, by weekly or so chance would be released.

Thats P2W, actual progression that doesnt exist in game, everything else you guys wanna claim in order to hide your (not you, the thread itself) low skill to complete trivial tasks in the game like +15 or AOTC, is irrelevant.

[Fendrith]

The amusing part is some of the people that find the token to be pay to win don't think the level boost is pay to win.

I'm pretty sure there was a bunch of uproar about it being p2w when it was introduced...

Also, I think there'd be more uproar if you could boost to max as opposed to the entry point for current content

[potis]

People definitely buy gladiator mounts, but your point is taken regardless. Your definition of "winning" is, in my opinion, absurdly narrow.

There is nothing narrow about it, thats literal the only thing that can be considered a win over some other player in WoW, and loosely i can accept Hall of Fame to a certain degree, but as i am gonna answer to @rhorle here to not make 2 posts.

How is Method/Limit world first with example of 242 item level, versus 100th Hall of Famer, with 249 item level + the conduits + stamina bonus, 2 months after?

All these situations do not really have the elements of a win, i can loosely accept Hall of Fame as a major in game achievement, but a win..eh, not really but okay? I guess.

[Dhrizzle]

For the people who still didn't understand. There is no need to argue. P2W is widely known for buying ingame advantages with real moneys.

Buying levels is an ingame advantage that was bought with real moneys.

Conclusion: WoW is P2W.

It's that simple. Really.

Pay-to-win is when you buy an advantage that can't be earned by playing the game, nothing in WoW allows for that.*

You don't have to like the way WoW lets you pay-for-convenience or pay-2-skip some of the content but pretending it is the same as systems that make your character stronger in ways that no-one could replicate without also paying money is just dishonest.

*Unless you are an avid collector who sees getting all of the mounts or pets as "winning" in which case WoW is practically** a p2w game.

**I say "practically" p2w because the WoW token allows you to earn store-cash by playing the game so in theory every mount can be earned in game, it's just a question of how practical or feasible it is to buy all the mounts with gold-cash transferring.

[Fendrith]

I was never an asshole, but here is an example for you of an actual P2W.

When Neverwinter Online was released, 7 years ago? Or whatever it was, after the first week, you find out that in order to progress your sockets/enchants past the 6th tier , up to the existing 10th tier, you had to buy from the Cash Shop, the item that made the success 100%.

The item didnt exist as a drop for at least 2 more weeks where the 1 only dungeon that would drop it, by weekly or so chance would be released.

Thats P2W, actual progression that doesnt exist in game, everything else you guys wanna claim in order to hide your (not you, the thread itself) low skill to complete trivial tasks in the game like +15 or AOTC, is irrelevant.

Was there a chance you could progress past the 6th tier at baseline? All the item did was make it 100% right? So in theory, you can still progress past the 6th tier without every spending a dollar?

Also, are you really claiming you weren't being an asshole while calling me and others who disagree with you low skill without knowing anything about us? Or without the condescending "Do you understand now why you are wrong, or do i need to write another essay for you to learn game genres?"

I'm happy to engage in the actual discussion at hand, but could you keep the insults to yourself? I promise I don't struggle to get CE, AOTC, +15s, or rating in arena. Not that it's particularly relevant

[Alithia]

No you did not. The price for that is 435€, mount included. If you paid that much .. oh boy the joke is one you.

[Kumorii]

I just paid 2.5k USD for Sylvannas Mythic and Full Gear run.

Is it pay 2 win?

Nope, the service is provided by players. If that's pay2win. Then all games are because you can pay others to do work for you in almost every game... And it also happens in every game where its possible.

Any game with progression has players buying and selling services for real money.

[rhorle]

How is Method/Limit world first with example of 242 item level, versus 100th Hall of Famer, with 249 item level + the conduits + stamina bonus, 2 months after?All these situations do not really have the elements of a win, i can loosely accept Hall of Fame as a major in game achievement, but a win..eh, not really but okay? I guess.

How can a race have more then one person qualify? First past the post is not the condition of Win being used with hall of fame. That seems to be the problem with all of your arguments. You keep mixing different win conditions and expect them to all be equal.

[Fendrith]

Pay-to-win is when you buy an advantage that can't be earned by playing the game, nothing in WoW allows for that.*

You don't have to like the way WoW lets you pay-for-convenience or pay-2-skip some of the content but pretending it is the same as systems that make your character stronger in ways that no-one could replicate without also paying money is just dishonest.

*Unless you are an avid collector who sees getting all of the mounts or pets as "winning" in which case WoW is practically** a p2w game.

**I say "practically" p2w because the WoW token allows you to earn store-cash by playing the game so in theory every mount can be earned in game, it's just a question of how practical or feasible it is to buy all the mounts with gold-cash transferring.

I think this is the thrust of the discussion... people just don't agree on what p2w means or what even "winning" means.

If we accept your definition here, then yeah, you're right. But the crux of the issue is that some number of people don't accept that definition.