Is WoW Pay 2 Win?

[TheRevenantHero]

no, my subscription example is exactly what you're saying, but you're just incapable of admitting you're wrong.
People that pay 15 dollars to play the game have an advantage over me, because they spend a few hours doing other things.

So since the game is also pay to play, it's always going to be pay to win, if we go by your definitions.

No your subscription example is utterly asinine. You are giving the definition of a strawman argument. Both players must pay a sub to play. But one player has the extra money to buy a massive level boost that puts them at an advantage over players NOT dropping $60 and have to start at level 1. Bringing the subscription into the picture is utterly irrelevant and is just you grasping at straws.

[Runicblood]

No your subscription example is utterly asinine. You are giving the definition of a strawman argument. Both players must pay a sub to play. But one player has the extra money to buy a massive level boost that puts them at an advantage over players NOT dropping $60 and have to start at level 1. Bringing the subscription into the picture is utterly irrelevant and is just you grasping at straws.

yeah man keep lying to yourself.
Look up some actual pay to win games while you're at it. I'm done trying to convince a strawman that he's just making up definitions that fit biased his point of view.

[TheRevenantHero]

yeah man keep lying to yourself.
Look up some actual pay to win games while you're at it. I'm done trying to convince a strawman that he's just making up definitions that fit biased his point of view.

Lmao you're really going to pull a "no you" on me? you're the only one with a strawman argument. This is a topic about additional paid services and you bring up subscription, which is utterly irrelevant to the topic. And now you're trying to accuse me of having a strawman argument which shows you either don't know what a strawman argument is or you're just not capable of debating anything in good faith. I'm leaning towards the latter. I'm not making anything up. you're just clearly incapable of admitting when you're wrong.

[Runicblood]

Lmao you're really going to pull a "no you" on me? you're the only one with a strawman argument. This is a topic about additional paid services and you bring up subscription, which is utterly irrelevant to the topic. And now you're trying to accuse me of having a strawman argument which shows you either don't know what a strawman argument is or you're just not capable of debating anything in good faith. I'm leaning towards the latter. I'm not making anything up. you're just clearly incapable of admitting when you're wrong.

Just look at that attitude lmao. QQ more
I'm sure you incapable of ever admitting someone else is right

[Captain Proton]

Do the world a favor and look up the definition of the word "advantage". Using the subscription as an example is nothing but a strawman. Whether you like it or not, the level boost is p2w.

Can you actually say what advantage a player gets instead of dodging the question? A boosted level 50 has no advantage over a level 50, nor anyone actually playing the game who has a character above 50.

[Runicblood]

Can you actually say what advantage a player gets instead of dodging the question? A boosted level 50 has no advantage over a level 50, nor anyone actually playing the game who has a character above 50.

he can't so he has to try and make himself look smart, rather than accepting he's wrong.
I doubt the guy even plays wow, he just comes to this forum to be a negative nancy.

From what I see in the guys post history, he actually doesn't play wow and actively says negative things about it. ntzntz. Way to go big boy.

[Raelbo]

dude, get over yourself. This is really not complicated.

Yup you are correct. It's not complicated at all. The fact that you still can't get it after this amount of explained raises serious concerns.


This is a MMORPG where the endgame is to obtain better gear, mounts, titles & achivments from tackeling challenging content with others.

The token opens up to give a big F to that. [/quote]

No it doesn't. I have explained why.

Buy token, get everything, call it a day.

Get good at playing the AH, get everything and more than those hapless idiots trying to buy tokens, call it a day.

It doesnt matter one bit that a selected few gets money out of it.Worst example is probably gladiator title. everyone that wants it just buy tokens and get it.

*Everyone* cannot buy tokens. There is a finite supply, and the more that try to buy it, the more the return tanks. Furthermore, even as a token buyer, you have to compete with every other player who has gold in the game. And given how tokens are obtained, there are many players out there with the kind of gold that it would take a massive fortune to try and compete with, especially when *everyone* else is also trying to buy tokens.

It's just not feasible, nor does it actually happen in reality, only in your theoretical opinion (together with those spherical, frictionless chickens)

In mere seconds you can get 120k gold in a few clicks. most players dont go out and grind that in short time, you know that. why even bother with it when you can buy token?

Because buying gold with tokens is horribly inefficient if you want enough gold to do anything meaningful. Just because it only takes a few seconds to complete the transaction, doesn't mean the money required took only a few seconds to acquire. And I can promise you right now that there are people in the game who can make gold faster than a lot of people can make the money required to buy it via tokens (especially when you consider what you actually have earn before tax and other monthly expenses to get to the point where you have disposable income).

For example, buying the Brutosaur. It would have cost around $500 to buy that with tokens. The vast majority of people who acquired Brutosaurs did so by making money in the game. I know I did. I know that the other 5 people in my guild who have one did. And of the 50 or so people I have spoken to who do own brutosaurs, only a handful did so with tokens.

[TheRevenantHero]

Just look at that attitude lmao. QQ more
I'm sure you incapable of ever admitting someone else is right

I'm more than able to admit when someone is right....when they're actually correct. You have yet to give a legitimate point as to why the level boost isn't p2w and have only offered irrelevant strawman arguments.

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Can you actually say what advantage a player gets instead of dodging the question? A boosted level 50 has no advantage over a level 50, nor anyone actually playing the game who has a character above 50.

Two new players start playing the game. Player one drops $60 to immediately jump to level 50. Player two doesn't drop the money and must level from 1 to 50, which could take days. That is, by definition, an advantage in favor of player one. This isn't rocket science.

[crusadernero]

Yup you are correct. It's not complicated at all. The fact that you still can't get it after this amount of explained raises serious concerns.


This is a MMORPG where the endgame is to obtain better gear, mounts, titles & achivments from tackeling challenging content with others.

The token opens up to give a big F to that.

No it doesn't. I have explained why.



Get good at playing the AH, get everything and more than those hapless idiots trying to buy tokens, call it a day.



*Everyone* cannot buy tokens. There is a finite supply, and the more that try to buy it, the more the return tanks. Furthermore, even as a token buyer, you have to compete with every other player who has gold in the game. And given how tokens are obtained, there are many players out there with the kind of gold that it would take a massive fortune to try and compete with, especially when *everyone* else is also trying to buy tokens.

It's just not feasible, nor does it actually happen in reality, only in your theoretical opinion (together with those spherical, frictionless chickens)



Because buying gold with tokens is horribly inefficient if you want enough gold to do anything meaningful. Just because it only takes a few seconds to complete the transaction, doesn't mean the money required took only a few seconds to acquire. And I can promise you right now that there are people in the game who can make gold faster than a lot of people can make the money required to buy it via tokens (especially when you consider what you actually have earn before tax and other monthly expenses to get to the point where you have disposable income).

For example, buying the Brutosaur. It would have cost around $500 to buy that with tokens. The vast majority of people who acquired Brutosaurs did so by making money in the game. I know I did. I know that the other 5 people in my guild who have one did. And of the 50 or so people I have spoken to who do own brutosaurs, only a handful did so with tokens.[/QUOTE]

can you or can you not log in, buy token, get gold and obtain gear, mounts, titles & achivs right now and in the forseable future? You can.

BTW - sorry, this qoute thing seems to be messed up. Cant qoute your post without it turning out like that. Sorry for that!

[Ehrenpanzer]

If WoW becomes p2w I'd be more than happy to call it p2w but I stretch the definition just because it makes you feel better. It's okay for you to not like the game because of the services that Blizz offer, I just don't see the point of redefining p2w to express your displeasure.

You can buy currency with real money, then use that currency to purchase gear/runs/crafting mats etc from other players. Its pay to win with an extra step.

[Captain Proton]

Two new players start playing the game. Player one drops $60 to immediately jump to level 50. Player two doesn't drop the money and must level from 1 to 50, which could take days. That is, by definition, an advantage in favor of player one. This isn't rocket science.

Paying to skip low level content in a game where everything matters at end game is not an advantage lol. Convience? yes, but they gain no power not obtainable by playing a game, therefore its not pay to win. It's not rocket science.

[Runicblood]

I'm more than able to admit when someone is right....when they're actually correct. You have yet to give a legitimate point as to why the level boost isn't p2w and have only offered irrelevant strawman arguments.

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Two new players start playing the game. Player one drops $60 to immediately jump to level 50. Player two doesn't drop the money and must level from 1 to 50, which could take days. That is, by definition, an advantage in favor of player one. This isn't rocket science.

This guy seriously reported me for trolling. If that's not a sign of being incapable of accepting your logic might be flawed, idk what is.

"This guy has better logic than me that i cannot accept. better report him"

I gave you a legitimate point. - Level 1-50 is irrelevant. Being level 50 ~12 hours before the other guy means nothing and provides you with no advantage. Assuming they play the same number of hours per day,
Player 1 will be level 53, player 2 will be level 50 but with MUCH better gear.
Player 1 will be level 54, player 2 will be 55, since he had better gear at the start of the expansion.
Player 1 will be level 58, player 2 will be 59.
Player 1 will be level 59 3/4th, player 2 will be 60.

Huge advantage there.

Fast forward another few days, player 2, who got luckier loot, will have ilvl 220, while player 1 who was unlucky with be at ilvl 215.
Both players are still extremely behind and have much content to continue doing.

Your point of view is so biased, i can't even.

[Ange]

What you get from tokens is access. You can buy as many boosts as you want.

P2Win? What would this players even win after spending 10.000€ worth of gold this way?
People wont even invite you for a weekly vault m+ run. You could buy r.io rating push and people would still decline your invite just because of the low amount of keys done.

RMAH?
Are you even playing this game at all?

[TheRevenantHero]

Paying to skip low level content in a game where everything matters at end game is not an advantage lol. Convience? yes, but they gain no power not obtainable by playing a game, therefore its not pay to win. It's not rocket science.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/advantage

Since you and other people apparently don't know what the word advantage is. Just because you want avoid calling it an advantage doesn't mean you're right in any way.

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This guy seriously reported me for trolling. If that's not a sign of being incapable of accepting your logic might be flawed, idk what is.

"This guy has better logic than me that i cannot accept. better report him"

I gave you a legitimate point. - Level 1-50 is irrelevant. Being level 50 ~12 hours before the other guy means nothing and provides you with no advantage. Assuming they play the same number of hours per day,
Player 1 will be level 53, player 2 will be level 50 but with MUCH better gear.
Player 1 will be level 54, player 2 will be 55, since he had better gear at the start of the expansion.
Player 1 will be level 58, player 2 will be 59.
Player 1 will be level 59 3/4th, player 2 will be 60.

Huge advantage there.

Fast forward another few days, player 2, who got luckier loot, will have ilvl 220, while player 1 who was unlucky with be at ilvl 215.
Both players are still extremely behind and have much content to continue doing.

Your point of view is so biased, i can't even.

Your point of view is the one that's skewed. A headstart is, by definition, an advantage. It doesn't matter what end result you think there might be. Paying $60 to skip content to quicker get into end game content is 100% p2w.

[Runicblood]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/advantage

Since you and other people apparently don't know what the word advantage is. Just because you want avoid calling it an advantage doesn't mean you're right in any way.

going to say it again. the boosted player is not in an advantage because non boosted player will have better gear at level 50.
He pays for disadvantage. Again, your logic is flawed.

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https://www.dictionary.com/browse/advantage

Since you and other people apparently don't know what the word advantage is. Just because you want avoid calling it an advantage doesn't mean you're right in any way.

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Your point of view is the one that's skewed. A headstart is, by definition, an advantage. It doesn't matter what end result you think there might be. Paying $60 to skip content to quicker get into end game content is 100% p2w.

I feel like you didnt even read what i said.
Player that did not boost, assuming they play the same amount of hours per day, will most definitely be at end game content beforeboosted

[kaminaris]

It would be quite interesting if Blizzard suddenly decided to remove mythic raids and/or m+, or at the very least the cool rewards hidden behind them.

Imagine if they made all of the content more accessible for everyone(and by that I dont mean LFR). imagine if the cool rewards from each content patch(like mounts) were obtainable for most people.

I would vager that if AOTC(and mounts tied to it) was a reward most people could obtain fairly easily by playing the game on the regular while getting good gear at a reasonable pace, boosting would go down. Or they just removed those rewards tied to raids and moved them to other sections of the game as a reward.

The only ones who would cry are the ones doing m+20 or higher keys and mythic raiders.

Clap

This man gets it.

You don't really have to remove them, just make alternative ways to get them, ie some currency you grind, that takes longer but gives you AOTC/Curve mounts, even after expansion ends.

Obviously I am talking about realistic ways, not 1% or other rng bullshit. That is how XIV works btw.

[TheRevenantHero]

going to say it again. the boosted player is not in an advantage because non boosted player will have better gear at level 50.
He pays for disadvantage. Again, your logic is flawed.

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I feel like you didnt even read what i said.
Player that did not boost, assuming they play the same amount of hours per day, will most definitely be at end game content beforeboosted

There is absolutely no way the nonboosted player will be endgame content before the booster unless the booster paid for the boost and just decided not to play the game. They will get the chance to farm for higher level gear long before the nonboosted player can. You're the only one with exceptionally flawed logic. While the nonboosted player is leveling through old content, the boosted player is already working towards max level and will hit that max level a lot sooner. You're one with flawed logic.

[Captain Proton]

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/advantage

Since you and other people apparently don't know what the word advantage is. Just because you want avoid calling it an advantage doesn't mean you're right in any way.

It's clear you've never actually seen a P2W game lol. Hint: You don't win at level 50.

[TheRevenantHero]

It's clear you've never actually seen a P2W game lol. Hint: You don't win at level 50.

It's clear you don't understand what p2w is. Hint: In MMOs it has nothing to do with "winning" and everything to do with using real money to gain advantages over players who aren't dropping cash. If we were to take the exact definition of "win" then that would mean p2w MMOs don't exist and that would be a ridiculous thing to say.

[Captain Proton]

It's clear you don't understand what p2w is. Hint: In MMOs it has nothing to do with "winning" and everything to do with using real money to gain advantages over players who aren't dropping cash. If we were to take the exact definition of "win" then that would mean p2w MMOs don't exist and that would be a ridiculous thing to say.

Ah you still don't understand, that's alright. There's nothing you can't gain by playing. It's not Pay to win. Instead of obsessing over the definition of advantage, you should actually see wtf pay to win actually is.