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  1. #101
    MMO's used to be one of the very few places where people can go online, meet new people and roleplay as someone else. People dated and got married over this game. However, these days we pretty much live online. So the game part of the MMO is here, but the charm is gone. Leveling is a time killer that hasn't got much to offer to most.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaise View Post
    MMO's used to be one of the very few places where people can go online, meet new people and roleplay as someone else. People dated and got married over this game. However, these days we pretty much live online. So the game part of the MMO is here, but the charm is gone. Leveling is a time killer that hasn't got much to offer to most.
    This. the RPG experience is long gone, and exchanged for a more diablo 3/destiny 2 like seasonal experience where people come/go cuz it's just a game... not a living, breathing world.

    there's a reason the classic realms are charming people in, because it offers a more RPG like experience that WoW has long since forgotten about, so much so that many don't even remember it or never experienced it.

  3. #103
    I have said for years that the solution is leveling should be its own progression system with its own rewards, just like PvE and PvP. When you want to enter a BG or arena, you join a queue and warp in, play and then exit when you are done. You have a panel to show your progress and reward list. You just do that with leveling. When you want some leveling, you enter the game mode and get warped to the starting zone at level 1. You can play thru the leveling game as long as you want. You can then exit leveling mode at any time (let's say you made level 13) and get warped back to where you were at max level again, saving your leveling progress. 3 days later, if you want more leveling, you re-enter the game mode and get sent back to the spot in the world where you were and are level 13 again. There is a button to reset your leveling progress to level 1. There is a panel to show your progress and a reward list. You get rewards every time you hit max level.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    I have said for years that the solution is leveling should be its own progression system with its own rewards, just like PvE and PvP. When you want to enter a BG or arena, you join a queue and warp in, play and then exit when you are done. You have a panel to show your progress and reward list. You just do that with leveling. When you want some leveling, you enter the game mode and get warped to the starting zone at level 1. You can play thru the leveling game as long as you want. You can then exit leveling mode at any time (let's say you made level 13) and get warped back to where you were at max level again, saving your leveling progress. 3 days later, if you want more leveling, you re-enter the game mode and get sent back to the spot in the world where you were and are level 13 again. There is a button to reset your leveling progress to level 1. There is a panel to show your progress and a reward list. You get rewards every time you hit max level.
    I don't think COD like prestige systems are the answer, either. I get what youre going for, but the game already has too big of an issue feeling completely seasonal and not expansional... a prestige system would just cement the seasonal system in place forever

  5. #105
    In many cases yes. In WoW it is completely redundant and serves little purpose outside of locking your character out of equipping endgame loot at a lower level.

    But if you are going to have leveling, then you should get rid of some other systems as they do the exact same thing that leveling does

  6. #106
    I think it is pretty pointless in WoW anymore. Truth be told if they just released new 5 mans, raids, and bgs/arenas on the regular it probably would go a lot further for them then creating a new land most people won't visit much outside of the leveling experience. Could easily be snipped out. The game is more or less a lobby and you just travel to locations if you decide to do content at a certain difficulty level. That is really all the world serves anymore. If they just occasionally modded the existing maps in the game to add in current endgame level 5 mans and raids it would still serve that purpose without having to create 5-6 new zones every expansion. Would also open up the themes a lot more. You could have a new 5 man that is discovered in Pandaland that could revisit those themes. Then one that opens in Kalandor and uses those themes. So on and so on though the whole list. Instead we probably just end up with a lot of heaven/hell stuff in this expansion because it is totally jammed into it.

    Then with how they can add items into the game these days that modify game play (think artifact weapons, set bonus, and even something like the bow off the last boss in the next raid) characters rotations and gameplay could be changed up and modified without the need of levels or tons of new spells. You just hardcore balance what exists and since you got forever it might at least get to a reasonable level. Then you add in modifiers that last for a "season" and switch those up over time. Keep things that work REALLY well.. trash those that don't.. expand the game without levels.

    Problem is all this doesn't sell boosts. It doesn't sell copies of a game. It generates less money, less hype, and thus.. will never ever ever happen.

  7. #107
    Leveling is still plenty fine, the problem is with games doing a bad job at making the leveling process interesting. "Go kill 10 boars" is just as boring on lvl 4 than it is on lvl 64 or lvl 100.
    You often don't notice the level in itself in singleplayer RPGs, because you're invested in the story and want to see what happens next, whereas in MMOs, they often treat you like some lower being and random NPC X sends you to pick up poop to fertilize their farm. Admittedly it's not helping that many are skipping most questtexts, but there is rarely an incentive to read the random kill quest on some random npc in the wild.
    SWTOR made an attempt with voicing every quest (atleast at launch, no clue how it is these days), but at some point, you notice how many of them are just "oh no, my sister is sick, please gather medicine from random monster" and start skipping aswell.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I don't think COD like prestige systems are the answer, either. I get what youre going for, but the game already has too big of an issue feeling completely seasonal and not expansional... a prestige system would just cement the seasonal system in place forever
    Actually this system pre-dates COD. It would be "remort" system found on online MUDs back in the 1980s...
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  9. #109
    The way WoW does it? Oh hell yes.

    If you want to know how leveling in an mmo should work, go play SWTOR (basically it's a single player rpg story with choices you can make etc).

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    This. the RPG experience is long gone, and exchanged for a more diablo 3/destiny 2 like seasonal experience where people come/go cuz it's just a game... not a living, breathing world.

    there's a reason the classic realms are charming people in, because it offers a more RPG like experience that WoW has long since forgotten about, so much so that many don't even remember it or never experienced it.
    Bad news: Classic realms are also seasonal, since vanilla is now a ghost town and the same thing will happen with tbc in about two years. And people still come and go in whatever classic realm is live, too.

    The problem is not the game, the problem is that people wish it wasn't 2021. We have infinite things competing for our attention now.

  11. #111
    I think the worst thing about WoW's levelling, is it forces you to do the same thing on each toon as you go through the content.

    Really, doing it once and then being able to level anywhere would be enough.

    Threads of Fate isn't really doing it for me if I'm honest. I'd happily level to give each class time to sink in, but the thought of pushing my remaining classes through the same fucking abysmal Shadowlands content yet again has me reaching for other games.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    The old moral was, the real journey in an MMO was the levelling experience the journey to get there. Now days its all about getting there as fast as possible no one wants to level, its 'gotta get there, gotta get the gear, gotta go fast, gotta see that max level stuff'.

    You feel levelling just needs to go or be replaced with something else? You feel like the gaming sphere has just moved on?
    Leveling is part of the RPG half of MMORPG.

    Usually leveling gives you a sense of growth. It's a little less now with how old zones scale, but the scale is capped depending on the expansion it belonged to. (While writing that I forgot about the level squish, but I'm sure at worse they scale to 50.)

    You could remove leveling from wow. Then it would be like any other seasonal game. Every few seasons has a gear reset. But then that would destroy their world building and story (i know it's bad already).

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    I have literally no idea what you are talking about. My title? I'm not the OP.
    Yeah, sorry about that, didn't check the name and assumed you were the OP
    Doesn't change the core of the argument though.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyris Flare View Post
    Bad news: Classic realms are also seasonal, since vanilla is now a ghost town and the same thing will happen with tbc in about two years. And people still come and go in whatever classic realm is live, too.

    The problem is not the game, the problem is that people wish it wasn't 2021. We have infinite things competing for our attention now.
    Indeed.

    Also, it's funny hearing people talk with such nostalgia about how Classic was this social wonderland with an amazing Role-Playing Game experience and world that was alive and shit.

    For one, that just wasn't true. Most of the world was dead as shit back then, too. People stood around in Org shouting for groups half the time anyway. And nevermind that WoW was considered to be the casual/anti-social MMO on the market at that time, since you could solo most everything and barely needed other people out in the world for anything.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Leveling is part of the RPG half of MMORPG.

    Usually leveling gives you a sense of growth. It's a little less now with how old zones scale, but the scale is capped depending on the expansion it belonged to. (While writing that I forgot about the level squish, but I'm sure at worse they scale to 50.)

    You could remove leveling from wow. Then it would be like any other seasonal game. Every few seasons has a gear reset. But then that would destroy their world building and story (i know it's bad already).
    Why would it destroy the world or story? Why could there not still be main questlines and such that players do to go through the zones, follow the story, and unlock attunements, gear, mounts, abilities or other things that are less gating?

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    But then that would destroy their world building and story (i know it's bad already).
    What do levels have to do with world building or story? Neither have anything inherently tied to an arbitrary number next to a characters name. Hell, Secret World has IMO the best world-building of any MMO by miles, and a much better story than most/all to boot. And it did all that without character levels (or even formal classes!) back when it originally released. There was still player power progression/growth and whatnot, just more tied to gear/abilities than character levels.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I don't really understand your reasoning. It'd make more sense to ask "should leveling be put again back in the center", wouldn't it ?
    I am playing devils advocate to things I keep hearing and the way people approach levelling MMO's.

    By the way I love levelling, but my argument is making a case for why others do not. I am more interested in the direction of levelling and how it was approached back in the day to how its approached now. And what can be changed to make levelling more appealing, even if that means getting rid of it. Not saying we SHOULD get rid of levelling, more looking for solutions

  17. #117
    no. I mean most of the only good or at least tolerable story telling happens when you level. not just in WoW but most RPG's. even as I despise the over arching plot line going on in WoW the lore and stories in each zone are by far the best parts of the game in that regard.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Why would it destroy the world or story? Why could there not still be main questlines and such that players do to go through the zones, follow the story, and unlock attunements, gear, mounts, abilities or other things that are less gating?
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    What do levels have to do with world building or story? Neither have anything inherently tied to an arbitrary number next to a characters name. Hell, Secret World has IMO the best world-building of any MMO by miles, and a much better story than most/all to boot. And it did all that without character levels (or even formal classes!) back when it originally released. There was still player power progression/growth and whatnot, just more tied to gear/abilities than character levels.
    Was equating the leveling experience with the questing experience. Even without the arbitrary level system, you would still have the chore of doing those quests to experience the content. Perhaps there is something fundamental that I'm missing, but without those it really wouldn't be an RPG.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    Was equating the leveling experience with the questing experience. Even without the arbitrary level system, you would still have the chore of doing those quests to experience the content. Perhaps there is something fundamental that I'm missing, but without those it really wouldn't be an RPG.
    Quests and whatnot aren't inherently tied to levels. And if the quests are "chores", they're bad quests. Secret World did a good job in making some of them more interesting with investigation missions that did everything from forcing you to look up morse code to translate a message to going to fake company sites to look for information (like, an IRL site but it's presented in-universe). Has plenty of the standard "kill X" quests too, but those investigation missions help balance things out.

  20. #120
    Leveling is cool if it's exciting, engaging, fun, and doesn't feel like it keeps you from the actual meat of the game.
    Right now, no mmo on the market offers this.
    People will bring up FF14 as an example of a good leveling experience, but i couldn't disagree more. That game's leveling is unbearably slow and tedious, and it has the worst implementation of "locking content behind quests" that i've ever seen.

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