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  1. #1

    [Speculation] Per spec multiple talent trees in 10.0

    Inspired by classic and building on the current way of how classes and specs work in retail, also, as a way to introduce an ever green multi-path progression system replacing borrowed power systems and legendary gear based abilities, this speculated change will bring multiple paths per spec allowing, for example, a frost mage to further choose a path that suits their play style.

    This system would also be replacing PvP-only talents and reintroducing iconic PvP talents as part of this new multi-path-talent tree per-spec progression system that is unlocked at max level - which would forever kill the idea of fourth specs and allow blizzard to focus on creating new classes instead as well as ensure that all the work that goes into borrowed power progression systems does not get invalidated or become obsolete with new expansions.

    Coupled with gear sets as the “temporary per expansion powers” giving players a fresh way of playing their favorite spec every raid tier and encouraging players to raid at their desired raid difficulty. This change alone will make WoW great again.

    Edit: it might not be multiple trees per spec but a multi branch single tree would be the same thing but visually organized into a single tree with multiple paths.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2021-06-11 at 09:07 PM.

  2. #2
    Speculated by who, exactly?

  3. #3
    So PvP talents are axed, and instead of old talent trees there's just talent paths...?
    Less total choices per spec to customize gameplay, but opens up potentially way more classes and specs in the future.

    We already have concrete info that even casuals will optimize Covenants. And while we could argue that players in reality have demonstrated they will just optimize all choices like these, maybe we could say people would just continue to optimize path choice like they have Covenants, and just eliminate any kind of semblance of talents altogether. It eliminates any and all gameplay modifying customization for your spec beyond your gear... but frankly, I think the game was already kind of working in that kind of direction already.

    If it opens up more classes and specs I think that's a lot more interesting than a ton of build options which just end up getting ignored by players anyway. Like, what's the point in having three paths if people are only going to pick one anyway? Same with the regular talents. May as well axe it all. Covenants have proven that the importance of choice no longer matters. So yeah, sure, get rid of it all. Apparently no one actually demonstrates choice when it's given to them when power comes into play - so why give them the options at all when they're just going to take those options away from themselves anyway?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    So PvP talents are axed, and instead of old talent trees there's just talent paths...?
    Less total choices per spec to customize gameplay, but opens up potentially way more classes and specs in the future.

    We already have concrete info that even casuals will optimize Covenants. And while we could argue that players in reality have demonstrated they will just optimize all choices like these, maybe we could say people would just continue to optimize path choice like they have Covenants, and just eliminate any kind of semblance of talents altogether. It eliminates any and all gameplay modifying customization for your spec beyond your gear... but frankly, I think the game was already kind of working in that kind of direction already.

    If it opens up more classes and specs I think that's a lot more interesting than a ton of build options which just end up getting ignored by players anyway. Like, what's the point in having three paths if people are only going to pick one anyway? Same with the regular talents. May as well axe it all. Covenants have proven that the importance of choice no longer matters. So yeah, sure, get rid of it all. Apparently no one actually demonstrates choice when it's given to them when power comes into play - so why give them the options at all when they're just going to take those options away from themselves anyway?
    It’s the mechanism through which you give choice that makes all the difference...that plus the longevity, time investment and overall feel good all of which are currently missing in the per-expansion borrowed power systems you mentioned.

    The current talent system is split into three separate paths each with its tree. As an example, one path is DPS focused in single target PVE, another path for aoe and the third for PvP (depending on the class you could have a tank sub spec) and you can mix if you like to experiment for fun at the expense of optimization. You can go pvp all the way and use that utility in PVE content including raids and dungeons if you like and your team is ok with you coming in specced for PvP into PVE content.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2021-06-11 at 04:11 PM.

  5. #5
    This is never going to happen.

    Also the entire idea of speccing down an entire tree for one type of damage (like ST) is awful. Having basic functionality of a class walled off into talents is already really annoying (consider, shadow's inability to do AE dmg without searing nightmare) and adds little to the game.

  6. #6
    Too much work. 10.0 will be pretty tuned down when it comes to that I guess and that's why we'll most likely get a new class. It's easier to just develop two skill trees for a new class than revamp all of the existing ones.

    COVID hurt their development so much, I think everything big is postponed until 11.0.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    Speculated by who, exactly?
    By the OP, I gather.

    Demon Hunters don't even have a third talent tree. Blizzard ain't lookin' to make more work for themselves. They will never, ever, add new specs.

    Adding an entire new class, a banner feature for an expansion, means designing two specs total. Adding a spec to existing classes, they would need to add twelve.

  8. #8
    Not too much work but simply taking all the work put into temporary systems in legion, bfa and SL and repackaging it. If anything, this system will free up time for the devs to create good content going forward and never bother with new borrowed power temp systems again aside from gear based set bonuses.

    If you wanna talk about too much work, look at covenants and what’s that other system called that gives you talent trees with some kind of a collection etc I forget the name, been a while.

    Also allows for adding interesting abilities without the need for an additional spec. For hunters you can make a tank sub spec for example. This would be the best of both worlds and never temporary nor borrowed which is so much work that is wasted and players hate it.
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2021-06-11 at 04:19 PM.

  9. #9
    New playstyles are a lot more work. They tried it, gladiator sub-spec for prot warriors. Immediately removed, they didn't want to support it.

    Borrowed power is borrowed for a reason. They don't want to cumulatively add abilities and bloat gameplay, they want every spec to have ~4-7 rotational buttons, and they want to add new powerful abilities every expansion. That's why they keep giving powers and then taking them away.

    Recently they've been removing legendary and set abilities too, simply because they do not want to keep supporting legacy stuff. Expect BFA azerite armor and the neck to stop working in the next expansion.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2021-06-11 at 04:33 PM.

  10. #10
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    Now look I'm of the opinion they're gonna use Classic as an excuse to kill talents entirely in 10.0.


    BUT "multiple trees per spec" is above and beyond impossible. I they did do the right thing and bring trees back it'd be the original "one tree per spec" and frankly probably the Cata form where you have to do your spec's tree to completion.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    New playstyles are a lot more work. They tried it, gladiator sub-spec for prot warriors. Immediately removed, they didn't want to support it.

    Borrowed power is borrowed for a reason. They don't want to cumulatively add abilities and bloat gameplay, they want every spec to have ~4-7 rotational buttons, and they want to add new powerful abilities every expansion. That's why they keep giving powers and then taking them away.

    Recently they've been removing legendary and set abilities too, simply because they do not want to keep supporting legacy stuff. Expect BFA azerite armor and the neck to stop working in the next expansion.
    Druids had a cool sub spec in wod that turned them into one of the coolest shape shifts ever, really miss it. Gladiator was very popular too.

    They can simply make one tree per spec with three to four branches, depending on the class, one pvp one utility/movement, one ST DPS, one AoE DPS, for healers they can add a sub role of healing via dmg dealing, tank shaman...etc.

  12. #12
    They absolutely could do that. They don't want to.

    Also splitting between ST and AE DPS would suck, you would need to switch your spec every fight, what a pain in the butt.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    They absolutely could do that. They don't want to.

    Also splitting between ST and AE DPS would suck, you would need to switch your spec every fight, what a pain in the butt.
    ST vs AE choices from talents is already the case.

  14. #14
    For some specs yes, and there it's a pain in the butt.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    For some specs yes, and there it's a pain in the butt.
    It’s only a pain because you cannot change talents between fights without a reagent. Would be nice to sell the reagent via NPCs for a trivial amount.

  16. #16
    It would still suck even then, it would just be one more button to press between fights. And oh, you forgot to respec before the boss, too bad, you need to l2p.

    Obviously some talents will be better than others in various scenarios, but the concept of purposefully setting AE vs ST talents to compete on the same tier needs to go away. It's poor game design.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It would still suck even then, it would just be one more button to press between fights. And oh, you forgot to respec before the boss, too bad, you need to l2p.

    Obviously some talents will be better than others in various scenarios, but the concept of purposefully setting AE vs ST talents to compete on the same tier needs to go away. It's poor game design.
    Agree that ST and AE should not compete as talents. Would be nice if we could get a choice of a few similar abilities to compete with each other instead..etc. this would make the new talent tree much more interesting indeed where you could have new sub spec play styles introduced via talents.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    Agree that ST and AE should not compete as talents. Would be nice if we could get a choice of a few similar abilities to compete with each other instead..etc. this would make the new talent tree much more interesting indeed where you could have new sub spec play styles introduced via talents.
    I really don't even think its poor design. The actual poor design is what they've turned the talents into in the last few years where there is just a mathematically correct universally applicable answer in virtually all reasonable scenarios and many classes hardly change talents if they even change at all. At least deciding between aoe and st talents entails a gameplay shift that you intentionally opted for and that decision making process justifies the existence of the talent tree. If they're going to continue on with the talents as they are where many specs don't change anything then I don't even see why the talent tree exists to begin with.

    I think ideally it worked the best around the time period of MoP where classes like mage had themed rows where you picked different styles of gameplay depending on your situation. Like living bomb vs nether tempest vs frost bomb or to make it more obvious it was single target vs multidot cleave vs burst. You would situationally like to use all three of those but if you look at mage talents now on WCL you'll recognize that they virtually never change any talents at all and the one row where they do if you play mage you'll recognize the change from flamepatch to either conflag or living bomb to be mostly ceremonial and a marginal increase when its applicable.

    Basically fire mage talents since I've been using mage as an example are just a trap decision tree. You either select the singular correct build or you're just an idiot and if you want to mix/max a little more you can swap one talent on sludgefist and decide if you care about a hundred dps on single target or not with another talent. That's it. An entire tree boiled down to two changes that have little to no impact. That is horrible design. In fact its also hilarious design as well because if you go back in time to when they removed the classic style talent trees and instead gave us what we see in modern wow now that problem is the exact problem they thought they were fixing. When they did the whole three option row thing we were intended to swap our talents situationally instead of being trapped in a "correct" cookie cutter build that we almost never deviated from. Somehow the newer WoW devs have recreated that same exact issue with our three option talent rows. I'm not sure if they even understand why that change was made in MoP or why we were allowed to freely swap that stuff as much as we wanted. That was the intended design.
    Last edited by Erolian; 2021-06-12 at 01:24 AM.

  19. #19
    I'm struggling to understand what problem this is fixing.

    Yes, the current trees have way too much; Blizzard 'balance' (i.e not getting a parse for three expansions), 'PvE, PvP and never' trees and lazy passive buffs instead of what we were promised in MoP. But (and I will die on this hill) the system is still better than the vanilla - cata trees.

    0.25% offhand white swing damage only feels good because you're getting a dopamine hit every few hours of play, it never means anything for your playstyle or your character.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I'm struggling to understand what problem this is fixing.

    Yes, the current trees have way too much; Blizzard 'balance' (i.e not getting a parse for three expansions), 'PvE, PvP and never' trees and lazy passive buffs instead of what we were promised in MoP. But (and I will die on this hill) the system is still better than the vanilla - cata trees.

    0.25% offhand white swing damage only feels good because you're getting a dopamine hit every few hours of play, it never means anything for your playstyle or your character.
    The problem is the extremely hated and avoided borrowed power max level talent tree systems that come and go in different shapes every expansion.

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    Just to give an example to clarify this system:

    Depending on the class, for example for tank/prot spec warriors, you can have a talent tree with three paths: one focused on dps with a sword&shield but at the expense of survivability, another path focused on aoe tanking, and a final path focused on self-healing/PvP. The base spec already takes care of single target play style and so it doesn’t need to have its own path. We can see with this system, prot spec tanks don’t have to think twice which sub spec to go with in dungeons as it is obvious and doesn’t compete with any other choice unless self-healing is preferred when soloing dungeons or Torghast etc.

    Imo this is much better than 4th specs as it basically turns every spec into three distinct play styles making the game incredibly more fun and diverse with a total of 9 play styles for warriors for example.

    The way to unlock this would be done through epic class fantasy quest chains and story telling. This is the kind of content players want, besides challenge modes, endless solo (Torghast, mage tower, islands turned soloable) and more dungeons, lots more! (Can’t ask for more raids coz they seem to go with a max three raid tiers per expansion now, but it would be nice if older raids are turned into 10 man dungeons queueable like LFR but serve another purpose than gearing/power up)
    Last edited by RemasteredClassic; 2021-06-13 at 01:13 AM.

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