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  1. #61
    Blizzard are lucky they started as strong as they did, otherwise by now with the terrible quality of the end game, it would be long dead. Addicted people are still playing this corpse, where blizzard are totally out of touch with anything that should be fun. They are all about extending the players time in game as much as possible with the least content possible. They even put as much possible stick in your wheels every expansion and like fucking clown have to walk it back every time (its almost like its intentional!) Cant enjoy more then one class, have to grind stuff again. Community warns them about shit every alpha and beta, they never read any of that feedback anyway. "Players dont know what they want" No, but you can tell what they dont want. Bunch of pointless incremental grinds to waste their time when content doesent exist.

  2. #62
    Light comes from darkness shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    First time seeing multiple mmos coming out? It was the same thing with rift,swtor,dcu, terra,gw2, ect all coming out around the same time.
    It was not the same thing at all, not even close.

    Simply because WoW was at its absolute peak in quality of content and it was still a rather fresh and growing game back in the 2006 / 2010 era.

    Today it is not "fresh" anymore and that is a big weight to carry. Then you have all the original Blizzard people, who used to care about the game and its players, leaving. We are left with a bunch of people whose goal is to please shareholders.

    We are in a very different situation and OP is pretty accurate.

    Imagine if you have 3 more games with just half of the popularity of FF14 and WoW out there... that is 4 alternative MMOs which look decent. At the current state of huge decline wow is experiencing, that would only hit it harder than ever.

    Worse part is that it is not the other games being good what damages wow.. it is it´s very own developers.


    Now, there´s still time enough to save it. Question is, will they? Even if they do, never expect WoW to be king again, odds are that the MMO player base will even splitting around all those new MMOs and WoW.

    This is good news: competition will raise quality. Then we will see who comes up on top.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    and other game developers are taking advantage of it.

    It just dawned on me while I was sat here, there doesn't have to be a singular WoW killer, with companies like Amazon, Riot, and Singularity 6 (and more) coming out with their own MMO's. All that has to happen is these developers individually absorb a chunk of the current WoW base. Blizzard essentially will compete with several major viable companies, instead of just 1 at a time when they are failing miserably. its just a matter of time.

    Does competition breed excellence?
    WoW killer post?

    WoW being a phenomenon was, is and most likely always will be a game that does not play by conventional logic. It is done when Blizzard says it is done, they have a very loyal fanbase.

    Like I have said in the past, looking at MMOs that have come and gone it will be very hard to shrink the wow player base below 2 million as long as it is available to play. There tends to be somewhere between 10-20% of your peak subscribers that will simply never leave until the doors are closed. The real big difference for WoW is it is taking a very long time to reach that point if indeed it ever will as per above.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.

  4. #64
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    It was not the same thing at all, not even close.

    Simply because WoW was at its absolute peak in quality of content and it was still a rather fresh and growing game back in the 2006 / 2010 era.
    All of those games came out in 2011 when wow was on its first downwards trend and people were saying all of the same things rather it be activsion had taken over, ghost crawler was killing the game, every one is moving to X other games, nothing has changed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    Well I admit I don’t trust the website in question, they even have wildstar having players still which... well, we both know that’s not true

    That said, some of their metrics such as activity outside of the game does point in the direction of ff14, and every WoW player I know except 1 has left SL and my guild has literally raided since vanilla without a break... until SL

    SL has basically turned my circle of WoW friends into ghosts, or playing classic tbc, or ff14 and patch 9.1 won’t be bringing most of them back

    Ff14 and ESO both are gaining clear momentum, and outside of tbc, SL is not and it’s clear it’s lost any momentum it’s had

    Plus, even if you like it, bfa was the most negatively received WoW expac ever. To follow bfa up with SL is the death of WoW to many
    Ah your talking about mmo population, ya that site is complete bull just using made up numbers and then cross referencing them with Reddit.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    All of those games came out in 2011 when wow was on its first downwards trend and people were saying all of the same things rather it be activsion had taken over, ghost crawler was killing the game, every one is moving to X other games, nothing has changed.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ah your talking about mmo population, ya that site is complete bull just using made up numbers and then cross referencing them with Reddit.
    I do think it’s probably true just based off personal experiences and chatter in my game circles, but yeah I do not trust that site at all. They legit still have wildstar having a healthy population

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo03 View Post
    I can’t see it being active players. The combat is awful and all I hear about it is how underwhelming the new content always is.
    I like it very much. The combat is not as engaging as that of asian MMOs but for me it is much more engaging and fun as WoWs combat. I played all the expansions, i really enjoyed them. They are smaller than WoWs expansion, usually only one or two zones but the zone is bigger and more packed than WOWs zones. The stories and quests are usually really good.
    I don't know if the raid-or-die crew likes it but for someone more casual that only wants to quest and do a few dungeons it's a great game.

  7. #67
    The Insane Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justandulas View Post
    I do think it’s probably true just based off personal experiences and chatter in my game circles, but yeah I do not trust that site at all. They legit still have wildstar having a healthy population
    What ever the numbers are it’s safe to say there not at what ever mmo population says they are as they just divine life time accounts by Reddit but even in doing that they make up bull as they don’t go off of actual life time accounts they make up there own many times more Millions then officially announced.

    As far as my own view on which is doing better, id say I lean towards wow being still ahead if for the only reason being that the reporting earnings between the two still seem like quite a large gap if the last super data report is any thing to go off of though with super data shutting down all we have to compare that is investors reports which I don’t believe break up earning by game in either company.

  8. #68
    You all should know that the MMO Riot Games are making, will be the one that swallows WoW's population. Now there is always going to be WoW players (i will be one of them) because Riots new MMO game doesnt have what WoW has and that is ofcourse the lore of Warcraft and all that shit you know so i gotta go there to get that. Now this all depends on if Riot can deliver a truly great MMO something that is well made with interesting lore and SMOOTH as butter gameplay. As a bare minimum it has to have WoW's responsive gameplay. I hope they deliver something greatand as much as i love the Warcraft universe, i WANT to fall in love with other stories the same way i did for Warcraft 3 up to World of Warcraft and i really think Riot CAN be the one to do that for me and all of us.

    Time will tell we will see if they deliver im crossing my fingers thats for sure

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by shise View Post
    We are in a very different situation and OP is pretty accurate.
    I dont see it that way.

    WoW tourists were allways looking for different games, since they cant stand ANY GAME for more than a few weeks before "burning" out - or lets call it what it is, not able to deal with the social part of this MMO or any other MMO.

    WoW had allways something fun to do at every given time, but people choose to fixate on some niche and without social interaction of course its get dull and only the real hardcore grinders can enjoy the game played in such ways.

    boohoo, nobody cares for hose players.

    WoW got over time some mini games like M+ that attract more of this soloplayer type of players, who would normaly not stand any real MMO, so who really cares if the try a new game? They would try ANY GAME after a while, so nothing changes for WoW.

    I remember every time when a "WoW killer" launched, it was allways the same community feedback to the new MMOs and it was the similar kind of WoW player that was willing to spend time for some B/C class MMO, that had never a chance to replace WoW.
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  10. #70
    What year is it? This thread seems awfully familiar!

    People have been out here screaming that WoW is dead because the new devs/new expansion/new something is awful since TBC. Back when conspiracy theorists said that Kaplan was killing the game by balancing PvP around his girlfriend, as evidenced by supposedly naming a badge cloak for her.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    What year is it? This thread seems awfully familiar!

    People have been out here screaming that WoW is dead because the new devs/new expansion/new something is awful since TBC. Back when conspiracy theorists said that Kaplan was killing the game by balancing PvP around his girlfriend, as evidenced by supposedly naming a badge cloak for her.
    I believe the major difference you're looking at in your comparison is that you're comparing a growing and massive player base to one that has been shrinking and falling apart for a decade. I'm not trying to say wow is dead or whatever but the health of the game during BC in terms of population was objectively superior to anything we've seen in years at this point.

    The game at this point really has been dying and right now we're in a super long dry spell right at the start of an expansion. It would be amazing if this weren't the lowest point for retail WoW ever rather than it being a game coming up and growing. I don't even want to get into the whole game vs game thing and I'd rather just stick to the part where retail wow is pretty much trash right now and isn't doing much to hold onto its players
    Last edited by Erolian; 2021-06-16 at 01:57 PM.

  12. #72
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    and other game developers are taking advantage of it.

    It just dawned on me while I was sat here, there doesn't have to be a singular WoW killer, with companies like Amazon, Riot, and Singularity 6 (and more) coming out with their own MMO's. All that has to happen is these developers individually absorb a chunk of the current WoW base. Blizzard essentially will compete with several major viable companies, instead of just 1 at a time when they are failing miserably. its just a matter of time.

    Does competition breed excellence?
    If only what you wrote hasn't been predicted ever since I joined in 2008. At that time posters told us that clearly Aion, Age of Conan and Warhammer would kill WoW. Later it was SWToR, GW, Rift, Wildstar etc.

    I guess FFXIV made a proper impact, but LotRo and SWToR should have made a much bigger one as well in my book. Being cultural phenomenons in pretty much all other areas...but somehow not as MMOs.

    If competition breeds excellence...all those games should have been excellent and WoW should be excellent. Now look at the usual threads in this forum ^^

    I really don't even know where you are aiming at with this? Apparently atm there are over 100 MMOs out there that make money / are actively played. Among the more popular are old ones like Runescape and Everquest apparently.

    5 or so years ago, WoW released the fact that over 100 million accounts were created. Obviously...with 4-12 million ppl playing, WoW has always lost a chunk..hell...you couls say massive chunks. Compared to the 10 million of WoW they lost 90% of ppl that once had an account. Compared to current WoW 95% or more, depending who you believe.

    All those new MMOs should have ZERO problem getting millions of players...even without getting them from WoW.

    Yet...so far with a few exception, they don't come close. When the next biggest thing to retail WoW s Classic WoW...yeah...i don't think it is Blizzard that has the problem

    https://bestreamer.com/gaming/most-played-mmorpgs/2/ (ok...so Classic is in 4th spot, but old ass Runescape in 3rd? - also...it is a "source" that I grabbed with a quick google. Do with it what you want or look at this https://mmo-population.com/list and pick it apart. Or even better...link your "favorite" list )

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Erolian View Post
    I believe the major difference you're looking at in your comparison is that you're comparing a growing and massive player base to one that has been shrinking and falling apart for a decade. I'm not trying to say wow is dead or whatever but the health of the game during BC in terms of population was objectively superior to anything we've seen in years at this point.

    The game at this point really has been dying and right now we're in a super long dry spell right at the start of an expansion. It would be amazing if this weren't the lowest point for retail WoW ever rather than it being a game coming up and growing. I don't even want to get into the whole game vs game thing and I'd rather just stick to the part where retail wow is pretty much trash right now and isn't doing much to hold onto its players
    WoW is extremely freaking old, and the MMO genre as a whole isn't what it used to be either. I would be more surprised if WoW didn't experience a decline.

    People have been trying to assign "the death of WoW" to their own grievances ever since the fabled Cata decline, but ultimately it can just come down to the era of the MMO being a cultural phenomenon coming to an end.

  14. #74
    To infinity and beyond det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erolian View Post
    I believe the major difference you're looking at in your comparison is that you're comparing a growing and massive player base to one that has been shrinking and falling apart for a decade. I'm not trying to say wow is dead or whatever but the health of the game during BC in terms of population was objectively superior to anything we've seen in years at this point.

    The game at this point really has been dying and right now we're in a super long dry spell right at the start of an expansion. It would be amazing if this weren't the lowest point for retail WoW ever rather than it being a game coming up and growing. I don't even want to get into the whole game vs game thing and I'd rather just stick to the part where retail wow is pretty much trash right now and isn't doing much to hold onto its players
    So..in short you say the same thing that the guy you quoted said. "...awfully familiar". Not least since you put in the bit about "The game at this point really has been dying" - adding the novelty word "really" as if so far everyone was wrong and it was only sort of dying.

    And yeah...saying the playerbase is falling apart and now it is a different situation? "...awfully familiar"

    But hey...make no mistake. I have been saying this since 2021 or so. Ofc WoW will shut down and die one day. Then everyone can once again crawl out from under the rocks and say "Told ya so"...in 2030...ish. Which I honestly don't even think is ridiculous that the game will still be played then.

    Look at MMos (even like SWToR) that happily exists with much smaller numbers. I absolutely see two more x-pacs, even if sub numbers go down to 3 million or 1.5 million progressively.

    Until then I am constantly amazed how people just look and point at WoW and not at the failure of other MMos to overtake that dying juggernaut.

    Oh well..maybe Jeff Bezos will

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Daemos daemonium View Post
    What ever the numbers are it’s safe to say there not at what ever mmo population says they are as they just divine life time accounts by Reddit but even in doing that they make up bull as they don’t go off of actual life time accounts they make up there own many times more Millions then officially announced.

    As far as my own view on which is doing better, id say I lean towards wow being still ahead if for the only reason being that the reporting earnings between the two still seem like quite a large gap if the last super data report is any thing to go off of though with super data shutting down all we have to compare that is investors reports which I don’t believe break up earning by game in either company.
    While i disagree on who i suspect is on top (i actually suspect both ff14 and wow are neck and neck and ESO is creeping on both too) i think we can both agree i don't agree with that websites numbers at all. They literally just admit they guesstimate things based on forum activity and sentiment feelings and crap. It's just nonsense.

    even if ff14 is ahead, which i suspect it may be, i damn sure don't trust any # that site produces

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    So..in short you say the same thing that the guy you quoted said. "...awfully familiar". Not least since you put in the bit about "The game at this point really has been dying" - adding the novelty word "really" as if so far everyone was wrong and it was only sort of dying.

    And yeah...saying the playerbase is falling apart and now it is a different situation? "...awfully familiar"

    But hey...make no mistake. I have been saying this since 2021 or so. Ofc WoW will shut down and die one day. Then everyone can once again crawl out from under the rocks and say "Told ya so"...in 2030...ish. Which I honestly don't even think is ridiculous that the game will still be played then.

    Look at MMos (even like SWToR) that happily exists with much smaller numbers. I absolutely see two more x-pacs, even if sub numbers go down to 3 million or 1.5 million progressively.

    Until then I am constantly amazed how people just look and point at WoW and not at the failure of other MMos to overtake that dying juggernaut.

    Oh well..maybe Jeff Bezos will
    Hmm no its not familiar at all outside of maybe words that people choose to use. The point was that now vs then is completely different because we have data to prove that many many years ago people saying it were just flat out wrong and the game was actually growing and becoming more where as these days we have data to point to the exact opposite

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    Why would you pay and play for this
    I forgot to mention this. We're all paying monthly for the game - i find progressively more difficult to justify the subscriptions when i cannot get what i want out of it. So far, i stopped playing multiple times before SL just to promptly return. Which isn't bad imho, it's just what i would do if i jumped from game to game; hell it's even cheaper compared to buy a new game each month or so.

    But when you start considering how much you're spending and not getting "enough" from it (which is different for every player) something's not working right imo.
    You tried, and you failed. What have you learned? That's better not to try at all.

  18. #78
    The Undying Gehco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanstos View Post
    and other game developers are taking advantage of it.

    It just dawned on me while I was sat here, there doesn't have to be a singular WoW killer, with companies like Amazon, Riot, and Singularity 6 (and more) coming out with their own MMO's. All that has to happen is these developers individually absorb a chunk of the current WoW base. Blizzard essentially will compete with several major viable companies, instead of just 1 at a time when they are failing miserably. its just a matter of time.

    Does competition breed excellence?
    Well, I do not think we will see S6 with Palia killing WoW, as they consider themselves a lifestyle MMO (think other terms used were, Sims MMO, and at the current, do not even plan to have PvP or larger raids.

    But to your last line. Competition does indeed breed excellence. And Blizzard has been sitting on the throne for a while, and the only one up nibbling at the seat, is FFRRXIV, and they even had to try for a second time before they could.

    As for Amazon and Riot, we'll wait and see but it should tell Blizzard that more companies are growing up to the idea of operating a AAA MMORPG.
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  19. #79
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yes, competition breeds excellence. The rest of OPs post is a bit silly though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Minikin View Post
    "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never....BURN IT"

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    I forgot to mention this. We're all paying monthly for the game - i find progressively more difficult to justify the subscriptions when i cannot get what i want out of it. So far, i stopped playing multiple times before SL just to promptly return. Which isn't bad imho, it's just what i would do if i jumped from game to game; hell it's even cheaper compared to buy a new game each month or so.

    But when you start considering how much you're spending and not getting "enough" from it (which is different for every player) something's not working right imo.
    I've said for years that MMOs are actually pretty freaking expensive to play. (I think I counted that Firelands cost players around $380 to play - for example - if they stayed subbed through the whole cycle)

    People usually argue, "But you got so much playtime over the course of that time!" and maybe you did, sure. But was the quality of that time really that high? It's entirely subjective, of course. But it doesn't sound like it to me.

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