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  1. #121
    Brewmaster khazmodan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahbi View Post
    Ion and crew are awesome at systems and spreadsheets and metrics and numbers.

    They are horrible at fun.

    Ion has engineered the perfect game. Now if they could only engineer some fun...
    Perfectly said, Ion is a lawyer and an analytics guy but not an artist or an innovator and coming out of "elitist jerks" means he is a bottom line sort of guy. Bottom line people tend to be one dimensional people that are fine in the finance department but creating a great game experience takes people more excited by fun features and depth of creativity. The talent has left the building and anybody expecting anything more than generic time sink grinds and excessive monetization should wake up and smell the Blizzard corpse.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    Let’s look at current systems

    Covenants
    Soulbinds
    Conduits
    None of these are in any way changed by playing hardcore

    The maw
    Venari upgrades
    If you are a player that does one weekly quest in there you hit max rep months ago and you were on par with hardcore raiders

    Torghast
    They literally made a system to help more casual players get further and get required items to upgrade legendaries without doing it

    Dungeons
    M+
    Idk why this is seen as hardcore when you can do +5s easily and get weekly gear rewards that would be over normal raid level

    Raids
    Literally no change in story ending regardless of mythic only phases and you receive the same gear

    Hardcore essentially just speeds up everything at most but that’s to allow the hardcore players to enjoy the game which for many they actually did a lot more because of the fact these new systems work against them
    Everything you said is true, but people feel like they have to do all of it at the same time and harder content because when you see your favourite streamer banging out 25s, you think a 15 should be easy (which it is), but the average player struggles in a 8-10.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Insane amount... realy?

    Even people here lose it. There is not much content in general... treasure hunting is non excisting and new zones and stuff is for everyone.. the major develop time goes into the raids and dung. But for a while now its just not cutting it an we all know it.
    This patch literally added more than 50 mounts.

    I think like 3 of them are in a raid.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But many people play WoW for it's setting, the lore, the achievments, the collections. No clue why you are telling people to play FFXIV instead if that game has nothing of that?
    You must be mistaken, FF does everything better then WoW. By definition there can't be anything in WoW that is not in FF. That is the consens I am repeatedly reading in this WoW Forum.
    Sarcasm aside. I know that and know several people who do play this way. But none of them ever needed to have the game change to enjoy these things. They join the guild raids to get achievments and mogs and are playing in dungeons with others. These are not the people I directed my post at.
    I was targeting the toxic "casuals" who demand that the game shuld revolve around Herbalism and World Quests, because they can't be arsed to do the central content of the game and thus get bored quickly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    Never unstood people who play games only for "gameplay" lol. Also I played SWTOR casually since it's release for some time - it never really had any "good" endgame compared to WoW. PvP was great at the start but they botched it quite early.
    True, when I first stepped into a WoW raid in late WoD (when the guild switched here) the difference was incredible. I enjoyed some of the raids in SWTOR, like the whole Dread Master ones, but there is nothing on the level of WoW mechanics there.
    The lore is very important to me too (see my frequent posts in that sub forum), but it all means very little if I can't enjoy playing the game. It's not a book I am reading after all and I am do not expect a game build for raiding and dungeons to tell a high-level story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    And honestly, it wouldn't hurt WoW to get some ideas from both SWTOR and FFXIV.
    Yes, the combat was a bit more fluent in SWTOR for sure, and the animations were of course far superior, but then there was the engine and latency issue that kind of ruined that again. Trying to run a 16m raid in that game was a nightmare for the FPS and the bug fixing once a week was really testing players patience. But I would not say no to a personal story in WoW.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Atia View Post
    But many people play WoW for it's setting, the lore, the achievments, the collections. No clue why you are telling people to play FFXIV instead if that game has nothing of that? Never unstood people who play games only for "gameplay" lol. Also I played SWTOR casually since it's release for some time - it never really had any "good" endgame compared to WoW. PvP was great at the start but they botched it quite early.

    And honestly, it wouldn't hurt WoW to get some ideas from both SWTOR and FFXIV.
    I definitely only play WoW for the gameplay, and the social aspects of it. Literally the best large-scale cooperative content in gaming. Still. I had hopes for Planetside 2 for a hot second, but nah.

    I have to constantly ask my girlfriend what the fuck is going on with the story and why anyone would care about it. I've felt that way since Vanilla. It's been generic, trope-y fantasy writing for its literal entire existence.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Insane amount... realy?

    Even people here lose it. There is not much content in general... treasure hunting is non excisting and new zones and stuff is for everyone.. the major develop time goes into the raids and dung. But for a while now its just not cutting it an we all know it.
    So you dont enjoy the casual content out there, hence it doesnt exist (?), damn this is just another average mmo-champ user, always good to see the hot takes in this forum.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    It's been generic, trope-y fantasy writing for its literal entire existence.
    Absolutely. But that is not necessarily a bad thing if it is done well.

    But yes, the story is a nice extra and I care about it, but it's not the focus of my playing or the reason why I play. That would be my guild that I have been with for over a decade now and the great raiding and dungeoning in WoW.

  8. #128
    "game changed they hired tryhards"
    so op apparently doesnt know the original devs where tryhards coming from everquest raiding.

    Theres a very simple explanation why retail is shit - their new hires are shit. Taking a look at twitter is like looking at the mental asylum, they hired a bunch of type lvl99 psycho full mythic raid gear looking at their post history including direct hate of wow players. Hiring someone who hates your customers and product is just asking for failure.

  9. #129
    Ion has failed to appreciate the effectiveness of simplicity. Think about how relatively simple the game used to be. Think about how chill the zones used to be. Now you're bombarded with a ton of systems and annoying zones that make you not want to level any alts because fuck going through all that shit again.

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well who else to blame, when the game is raid or die. Like what PvE endgame do you have beside mythic + and raiding? You can't say the game was designed for casuals, can you?
    How exactly is the game raid or die when you can get gear 6-19 below HEROIC raiding without setting foot in any instanced content? Or did you forget about the entire new zone full of rares, mogs, gear, pets, toys, and mounts to farm? You claim there is no PvE engame outside instances then in the same sentence completely ignore anything not in an instance as not endgame in the first place. There are people to whom world content is endgame. It's not you, but it still exists.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    So you dont enjoy the casual content out there, hence it doesnt exist (?), damn this is just another average mmo-champ user, always good to see the hot takes in this forum.
    I dont think you get it.. besides your comment is pretty useless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    This patch literally added more than 50 mounts.

    I think like 3 of them are in a raid.
    So what are you saying? That I am wrong cus there are only 3 mounts in the raid? Casusls are the new hardcore. Casuals will spend way more hours on "that" content.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-07-06 at 10:23 AM.
    Please read this blizzard: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...m_source=share also what could have been possible with Nightborne--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLr5dDXn5nE

  12. #132
    What even is the thesis of this thread? All of this daily stuff and world quests and grinds were added because people didn't want to raidlog or didn't want to raid (so after a point they had nothing to do).

    The vast vast majority of this infinite content (with the notable obvious exclusion of high-end m+) exists for and is aimed at the casual player, so they always have something to do.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    "hardcores" using casual aspects of a game doesn't change the fact its casual content.
    What are hardcores in your opinion and what does hardcore stand for theae days.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2021-07-06 at 10:49 AM.
    Please read this blizzard: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...m_source=share also what could have been possible with Nightborne--> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLr5dDXn5nE

  14. #134
    Brewmaster rogoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorgar Aurelian View Post
    Given that people like ion helped make the best content wow has had with things like ulduar it definitely wasn’t a mistake to hire them.

    Rather they should have bm move on from encounter design to higher rolls is a whole other question.

    - - - Updated - - -



    The game has always been raid or die with almost no end game content outside of raids and mabye some relevant dungeons.

    Expans like Sl and bfa likely have the most not raid content of any of them with things like islands torghast and other little things all over rather they are actually good or not.
    he had NOTHING to do with that content, it was made before wrath launched, at which point he was still the pleb running the EJ forums and an officer in the guild at the time, publishing guides done by josh (Lore), and hosting them on the EJ website, it wasn't until well after wrath ended that he got hired, i would suggest checking your info before making false statements like this.

    retired march 2013 RIP - returned january 2016, purely because paladins finally get Ashbringer!

  15. #135
    Yeah, but sadly that mistake was made a long time ago.

    In general the "hardcore" game design kinda sucked the fun and life out of WoW. They pushed so hard for the M+/world first/arena esports and "balance" that they drove the game itself into the ground for it. I feel like WoW's development from about Cata onward is proof that the players don't actually truly know what they want out of a game and you should never hire hardcore players to design it.

    As others have said though I think this is pretty done and talked about by now. The sinking ship is already riddled with holes, the conversation has been had and argued on both sides. Sadly this is what we're left with.
    If you reply to me with a full essay I'm probably not going to bother reading it, sorry.

  16. #136
    Scarab Lord Motorman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wangming View Post
    Well who else to blame, when the game is raid or die. Like what PvE endgame do you have beside mythic + and raiding? You can't say the game was designed for casuals, can you?
    You can safely ignore raiding and have perfect fun in wow doing what you really like. I haven't raided since wotlk and always had gear on par with the best minus some transmog benefits. Like raiding, staying relevant needs effort. Those who complain are those who don't make an effort.
    WoW forums in a nutshell:
    m8 i've been around since Feb 2005, I know it all.
    i outgrew the games playerbase.
    So I was using a gold dupe hack. I don't know why i was banned for this. It is so unfair.
    People need an incentive to play content. "Its fun!" is simply not enough.
    Btw iam multi glad so plz dont tell me how to play, kkthxbye

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjohn View Post
    For me its the fact that every facet of the game benefits hardcore players more now. For example, one new problem in recent expansions is dungeons used to be considered casual content. Now it is hardcore content thanks to Mythic +.
    if you want to casualy do dungeons you still can, M+ didnt remove lower dificulties, everything up to mythic is how it was before, since it was added... hardcore players getting something new didnt remove casual content...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnjohn View Post
    Even transmogs and mounts require hardcore raiding if you want to get all the best ones.
    im sorry, when was this not true? in wotlk when "best" mounts droped form last boss of the raid on hardest difficulty?
    its not game benefits hardcore players more "now", but since the very begining... and actualy, casual players get more to do in last few expansions than ever before...
    Last edited by Lolites; 2021-07-06 at 11:23 AM.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    What are hardcores in your opinion and what does hardcore stand for theae days.
    Good question, I agree on that it certainly depends on each and every one of us. But for me it's someone who pushes themselves in whatever they take part in. Hardcore content is content that push that on players. So higher difficulties for example pushes players and thus it's hardcore content.

    World content doesn't do any of that, hence its casual content. You don't really need to push yourself to overcome a lot of the world content. Its fairly easy. With that said, you can still be a hardcore player focusing on casual content. So there is a difference between content being casual and hardcore compared to if a player is one of either.

    One who pushes themselves to farm mounts and transmogs vigorously certainly are a more of a hardcore collector. However the content itself is on the casual side. Unless you strive for the current highest difficulty mount and mogs. The. You'd be a hardcore collector raking part in hardcore content. Etc etc.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by M1r4g3 View Post
    its soulless devs with massive egos vs players in general,
    judging by this forum alon, i would say its devs vs. players with massive egos, how many posts "do this one thing i want to make the game better for everyone" did we have in last month? ive seen at least dozen

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by rogoth View Post
    he had NOTHING to do with that content, it was made before wrath launched, at which point he was still the pleb running the EJ forums and an officer in the guild at the time, publishing guides done by josh (Lore), and hosting them on the EJ website, it wasn't until well after wrath ended that he got hired, i would suggest checking your info before making false statements like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard Press Kit
    As a lead game designer on the World of Warcraft team, Ion’s primary responsibilities include contributing to the overall vision of the game and overseeing the creation of the game’s dungeon and raid content. Hazzikostas joined Blizzard Entertainment in the summer of 2008 as a game designer
    Wrath of the Lich King was released on November 13, 2008
    Check your whatnow?

    Maybe he didn't do any work on Ulduar, which came out in April 2009, but will have been in development for a good while. But he certainly didn't join Blizzard "well after wrath ended".

    Josh's guides were published by Tankspot.
    Last edited by klogaroth; 2021-07-06 at 11:32 AM.

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