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  1. #81
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    we have the 4 seashells surrounding the chart. plus, we never got full murloc lore in 20 years. something's fishy...
    That made me laugh. I think those ornamental frames are just made for visual purposes.

  2. #82
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Here's some of the differences between the two systems (amongst their many similarities):

    Titans Brokers
    All powers are equal, have the same size. However, Light vs Void is more important Life and Death are the greatest powers and the main opposition of the cosmology
    More detailed. Powers subdivided.
    Ex: Life->Nature->Wild Gods.
    Order->Arcane->Titans
    etc.
    The powers are simplified, no mention of magic schools or denizens.
    Emerald Dream and Shadowlands are distinct from Life and Death No mention of Emerald Dream and Shadowlands. Seems like they are identified with Life and Death.
    Positive powers (Order, Life, Light) placed in opposition to the negative (Disorder, Death, Void) Positive powers placed in equilibrium with the negative, forming two intertwined triangles (à la Star of David)
    Material world called "Reality", which goes so well with the objective, orderly nature of the Titans Material world called "Great Cycle", as the place where the cycle of Life and Death occurs, which is the main concern of the Shadowlands afterall.
    Elemental planes viewed almost as demi-powers of their own, as if Reality was emanating from the elements. Reality is dominated by the powers. Elemental planes more closely linked to the Great Cycle and part of it. That coloured circle is almost as big as Light, Shadow, Order and Disorder circles, and superposed to the other circles. I wonder if the 7th power does not reside there?

    I think it's interesting to see the point of views of different groups. We had the Titans view, and now we have the Brokers. I find it hilarious that the Brokers judge the Titans as arrogant and as showing hubris, while that Broker's choice of words is by itself full of arrogance and hubris. A warning to us not to take this chart at face value. But maybe the writers really wanted to present a simpler version of their cosmology, but kept things open to new changes by making the Broker so obviously full of himself.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Kokolums View Post
    we have the 4 seashells surrounding the chart. plus, we never got full murloc lore in 20 years. something's fishy...
    Na, it's just a bit clammy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by StationaryHawk View Post
    Of course not, but I didn't need a "refined" cosmology to tell me that the Brokers consider the Shadowlands important.
    Well, if that's the narrow view you want to take at it, then you're best off not bothering with this forum. I got at least 4 other pieces of info from that image that seem to have passed you by and tell us more about the differences between how the Titans view the cosmos and how the Brokers do.

  4. #84
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Don't worry, it'll be irrelevant in a year or so when the next book comes around with more perspective.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by BaumanKing View Post
    Broker's comment about the absurdity of Chronicle's map feels like Danuser's jab at Metzen. Completely disrespectful.
    This is how I felt too. I'm having really mixed feelings right now. Chronicle is the entire reason I love and play wow. Metzen created a Bible for us. Grimoire feels blasphemous. I keep telling myself, stay calm, don't overreact. But right now my feelings are pretty raw and it feels like a slap in the face

  6. #86
    I get that this whole thing is all perspective, but I really hate that the idea that the primal agents of chaos are literally an ordered organization of fel beings. If it wasn't for Sargeras literally ordering them into a unified army, there would be no greater 'Chaos' force out there seeking to unwravelling order, as there should always be when considering a balance between cosmic Order and Chaos.

    Like in 40k, it's not just the Chaos Marines and their dark Primarchs who are the threat to the universe, there's still a heirarchy above of Chaos Gods who corrupted them all in the first place.


    But then, thinking about it, this means they're gonna 'Zovaal' another First One-style Chaos being into the lore and say he was the one who made Sargeras do everything Chaosy, and he's responsible for everything Fel.....
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I get that this whole thing is all perspective, but I really hate that the idea that the primal agents of chaos are literally an ordered organization of fel beings. If it wasn't for Sargeras literally ordering them into a unified army, there would be no greater 'Chaos' force out there seeking to unwravelling order, as there should always be when considering a balance between cosmic Order and Chaos.

    Like in 40k, it's not just the Chaos Marines and their dark Primarchs who are the threat to the universe, there's still a heirarchy above of Chaos Gods who corrupted them all in the first place.


    But then, thinking about it, this means they're gonna 'Zovaal' another First One-style Chaos being into the lore and say he was the one who made Sargeras do everything Chaosy, and he's responsible for everything Fel.....
    Nothing in either lore book points to there being an ordered organization of demons aside from the Legion, which is now in disarrray/disbanded.

    Hell, the only reason there WAS an ordered group of demons (the Legion) was because a TITAN, a being of Order, made one.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I get that this whole thing is all perspective, but I really hate that the idea that the primal agents of chaos are literally an ordered organization of fel beings.
    Yes, bad symmetry for the sake of symmetry. Just because 'Order' is ordered doesn't mean 'Disorder' needs to be ordered as well. In fact, doing so would be a severe oversight.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Nothing in either lore book points to there being an ordered organization of demons aside from the Legion, which is now in disarrray/disbanded.

    Hell, the only reason there WAS an ordered group of demons (the Legion) was because a TITAN, a being of Order, made one.
    But that's what I mean.

    There should be a primal force of Fel beings that aren't ordered that are mentioned there, kind of like how Death realm simply has 'Undead'. It's just a collective force, but not one that has to be ordered. All known Demons are unfortunately all tied directly to the Burning Legion.

    To be honest, the core problem with this stems from having to assign them a 'cosmic realm' in the first place. Fel and demons should not be assigned as Chaos to begin with. Chaos implies anarchy and freedom, and demons are absolutely not free...
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-07-16 at 09:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by olddog View Post


    What is this mean?
    Order is a cosmic force that is generally manifested as arcane magic. The source of this magic is volatile and requires intense concentration and precision to direct and wield. The counter-balancing force to Order is Disorder. That only means cogwheel heads (Cartel) using force of order. They are in top of cosmology on that power? Dunno. Disorder = fel magic.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    But that's what I mean.

    There should be a primal force of Fel beings that aren't ordered that are mentioned there, kind of like how Death realm simply has 'Undead'. It's just a collective force, but not one that has to be ordered. All known Demons are unfortunately all tied directly to the Burning Legion.
    Because the story didn't care about them prior. They definitely exist, we just haven't seen them because they didn't matter.

    I'm sure we will see demons again, but because Vanilla - Legion was about dealing with the Legion, we didn't meet non-Legion demons. Same way we didn't see any Shadowlands creatures aside from Spirit Healers.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    All known Demons are unfortunately all tied directly to the Burning Legion.
    Some are with the Illidari.
    I'm tempted to apply for a moderator position, just so i can go moderator on your asses.

  13. #93
    Water goes from being adjacent to Light and Life to be directly connected to Shadow... that's interesting.

    Death Knight/ Necromancer Ice spells versus Shaman/Monk Healing Water spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No fucking way. The worst idea since democracy.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalium View Post
    Water goes from being adjacent to Light and Life to be directly connected to Shadow... that's interesting.

    Death Knight/ Necromancer Ice spells versus Shaman/Monk Healing Water spells.
    I wonder if they are folding in N'zoth's power in the waters to it. Also consider that Y'shaarj is associated with Mists and Yogg with Ice... 3/4 of them have some water association.

  15. #95
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Concerning the First Ones. Today I did old raids to research buildings architecture to find similar symbols to the ones in Oribos. Also checked Temple of Ahn'Qiraj for some geometrical patterns. Didn't find anything in particular. Then I went to Pandaria. There was an actual N'zoth assault. I went to the cave where were those corrupted celestials to cleanse them. Out of sudden N'zoth whispered me and casted "Forbidden Knowledge" on me. I realized then that Void might be also the First One, well the unwanted one, because at the beginning there was nothing and something got created in the place of nothingness and it may be insulted him. So, the Forbidden Knowledge in Sepulcher might be the one from the Void. I was wondering why N'zoth chose to attack places like Uldum or Pandaria. In Pandaria there are titan devices and signs of celestial life. In Uldum there are also titan devices and forces of elements.

    My theory stays. Constellars are the First Ones. A Light that emerges from Void or both as a whole. Then the void would be discarded and considered as systemic corruption. Constellars are not constructs but highly intelligent elementals. Their First Stars shaped the universe. From the star shards Moon was created and then the Naaru. Sun is a star itself and so it created Azeroth. Titans are children of Constellars. Constellar design was perfect but they didn't not foresee things like greed (which is so accented in BFA, that destroyed nearly everything that we managed to achieve in Legion), because these emotions were highly unknown to them. Light and void were supposed to live in balance. How it can be fixed now? Maybe that's how it was supposed to be. Those are deep philosophy questions that burn my mind. Looks like Algalon's life is so damn sad, having his kind annihilated, his children destroyed and corrupted, standing alone in his vigil to watch over the only Titan that has left. Unbelievable. I just only wish he can be happy, that we will stop the Void and the Jailer and so he can live on to see Azeroth grow powerful more than ever. It appears so that there is a hope though and his perfect creations might not be the Titans but a single mortal. This is why we can open the damn vault and use waystones of the First Ones. This is why we are so damn powerful, because we contain all these elements inside us. Elements of the star and the void, which makes us very kinda similar to our creators. This is probably why Algalon changed his mind about reseting Azeroth.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-07-31 at 07:43 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Some are with the Illidari.
    I mean, that's even less chaosy considering that's even more organized than the Legion. They're even fighting on the side of Order.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldofSargeras View Post
    Now we can bring order to everywhere we want.
    The brokers say the Titan are not that important...because they are their creators????

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by benjaminandjen View Post
    This is how I felt too. I'm having really mixed feelings right now. Chronicle is the entire reason I love and play wow. Metzen created a Bible for us. Grimoire feels blasphemous. I keep telling myself, stay calm, don't overreact. But right now my feelings are pretty raw and it feels like a slap in the face
    .....this again. Metzen is Danuser Sr and you're blind either willfully or not if you think he was somehow better for WoW as Metzen was HORRIBLE for the lore many times over because of his own ego and insatiable appetite for applause that he developed which often caused him to "speak lore into existence" that was actually completely inaccurate in the face of his own lore.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by KainneAbsolute View Post
    The brokers say the Titan are not that important...because they are their creators????
    The brokers don’t know everything. The tone of the book is that they are missing some crucial information. They think that reality only exists to feed the shadowlands when that is clearly incorrect.

    The brokers being haughty Titan creations who thought they are above the titans fits them perfectly. They are arrogant.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Here's some of the differences between the two systems (amongst their many similarities):

    Titans Brokers
    All powers are equal, have the same size. However, Light vs Void is more important Life and Death are the greatest powers and the main opposition of the cosmology
    More detailed. Powers subdivided.
    Ex: Life->Nature->Wild Gods.
    Order->Arcane->Titans
    etc.
    The powers are simplified, no mention of magic schools or denizens.
    Emerald Dream and Shadowlands are distinct from Life and Death No mention of Emerald Dream and Shadowlands. Seems like they are identified with Life and Death.
    Positive powers (Order, Life, Light) placed in opposition to the negative (Disorder, Death, Void) Positive powers placed in equilibrium with the negative, forming two intertwined triangles (à la Star of David)
    Material world called "Reality", which goes so well with the objective, orderly nature of the Titans Material world called "Great Cycle", as the place where the cycle of Life and Death occurs, which is the main concern of the Shadowlands afterall.
    Elemental planes viewed almost as demi-powers of their own, as if Reality was emanating from the elements. Reality is dominated by the powers. Elemental planes more closely linked to the Great Cycle and part of it. That coloured circle is almost as big as Light, Shadow, Order and Disorder circles, and superposed to the other circles. I wonder if the 7th power does not reside there?
    About the point "More detailed. Powers subdivided." It is not only about that. It seems there is a inner circle (or oval) the encases fragments of each power. These sections (Wild Gods, Naaru, Old Gods, Titans, Undead and Burning Legion) are how each power manifest in the Reality/Cycle/Material Plane.

    I wonder if the Titans are only children of the true forces behind the Order. Maybe the Constellars are the servants/angels of the true Order that want to assist their children (Titans) with Reality?
    Last edited by KainneAbsolute; 2021-07-17 at 12:13 AM.

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