Wide partisan divide on whether voting is a right or a privilege

[PC2]

I don't even want to know.

There should not be an age-based eligibility restriction. If any citizen wants to vote then we should try to work with them as much as possible.

We need to abolish all voting requirements.

@Josuke, this is an example of a person who understands fundamental rights.

[D3thray]

Where do you see this? I just looked through their methodology and it makes no mention of that - https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-conte...ethodology.pdf

It’s in the fine print at the bottom of the last two infographics you posted in the OP.

[PC2]

Now elaborate on why a 1 year old should be able to vote. Then expand on how this totally wouldn't be exploited by parents that choose to have more and more children so that they can simply vote for their children the way they want them to.

It should be illegal to manipulate another person of any age into voting a certain way. If a 1 year old is somehow aware and competent enough to know what politics and voting is then that is impressive, imo. If they are somehow knowledgeable enough to know that there are political issues that matter then they should also be given the right to weigh in on the political issues they care about. If they request it.

Not to mention the already existing children that would be coerced into voting the way their parents want them to.

Again, that would be unethical and should be illegal. We should seek to eliminate that instead of creating voting restrictions.

[Shadowferal]

Now elaborate on why a 1 year old should be able to vote.

Now you know that won't happen. He's never thought any of his ideas through.

[Flarelaine]

No citizen's vote should be worth more than another.

On one hand, that is right.

On the other... people are not equally qualified to weigh in on matters and quite often, that is down to their (un)willingness to educate or even just to inform themselves.

[Shadowferal]

On one hand, that is right.
On the other... people are not equally qualified to weigh in on matters and quite often, that is down to their (un)willingness to educate or even just to inform themselves.

I see the point; essentially the educated voter's vote is worth more than an uneducated voter's vote.
Hard to disagree. Even if I feel a little bothered by it.

[Flarelaine]

There are certainly people too lacking in basic education (willingly or otherwise) on matter to make properly informed decisions with regards to voting, even voting against their own interests. But they should still be afforded the same level of vote as anyone else.

They probably should because once we decree we differentiate, we should draw lines and define criteria and would open up a very creepy can of worms.

But I still get annoyed at times.

[Shadowferal]

. The point is that a 1 year old will never have the capacity to effectively vote. It should be something so preposterous that you didn't even entertain the idea.

Well, if that toddler can read, write, mathematics...all of which at least high school level maybe there'd be an argument for this baby genius.
Sadly I believe we do have toddlers voting...they just happen to have the requirement of physical age. A couple of which even post here.

[PC2]

The point is that a 1 year old will never have the capacity to effectively vote.

That's 100% fine. However just because a 1 year old doesn't have the capacity to vote that doesn't mean it should be withheld from any other citizen who knows about political issues and wants to vote.

How would you achieve this? How would you enforce it?

It shouldn't be "enforced" unless there is a provable legal violation. If it happens then everyone should convince the coercive person to stop politically manipulating other people and respect their agency.

[PC2]

First of all, you've already just walked back your "all ages" position. Would a 2 year old know what they're doing?

You're also now restricting voting to anyone actually who has some political knowledge. What about Average Joe who knows nothing and just wants to vote for whatever they fancy?

No I'm against age restrictions. If a 2 year old doesn't know about politics and doesn't ask to vote then that's normal and fine. But if that changes at any time then they should have the option to vote.

If I told my 5 year old nephew about a single issue, is he then equipped to go and vote, whether he understood a complex political issue or not?

Any person can decide for themselves, if they want to be a single issue voter then it is up to them.

OK, so we're not enforcing it.

If there's nothing illegal happening then enforcement doesn't make sense. You can't stop coercion with more coercion if there is nothing illegal happening.

Let's start with how you would even identify such an issue. How will you identify if a young voter (or any age voter, tbf) has had their political positions coerced to match that of their parents/friends/whoever?

They would have to tell someone since no one is a mind reader. If ANY person is coercing another person into voting a certain way that is a major legal violation that needs to be reported to the government.

[Shadowferal]

If children are allowed to vote then I guess they'd be allowed to drink...

[PC2]

If children are allowed to vote then I guess they'd be allowed to drink...

Drugs should be legalized though, that includes alcohol. The government shouldn't be punishing anyone for things like that. If a person hurts another person because of drug consumption then they should be punished based on harm as it relates to other people but not for the act of taking drugs, imo.

[Lenonis]

Any person can decide for themselves, if they want to be a single issue voter then it is up to them.

Legally you are incorrect. minors cannot decide for themselves. The law has already decided that below a certain age people do not have the capabilities to make informed, reasoned choices about their life. They cannot sign contracts, they cannot consent for sexual activities, they cannot make healthcare decisions, etc.

It is nonsense, and you know full well it is nonsense, to apply the right of voting to a group of people who cannot legally make decisions because they are no capable of doing so.

This whole derailing bit of nonsense is absurd on its face.

A reasoned well intentioned poster would have put forward an argument that people should be able to argue they can vote at a younger age, similar to how minors can emancipate themselves from their parents. That would have been the way to have this argument about voting age in an honest fashion.

- - - Updated - - -

If a person hurts another person because of drug consumption then they should be punished based on harm as it relates to other people but not for the act of taking drugs, imo.

By definition minors are committing self harm by consuming certain drugs and alcohol at young ages due to the developmental disabilities they cause...

Not that you care.

[Shadowferal]

Well, we wouldn't want to restrict their freedom to do so, would we? All children should be allowed to get wasted in a bar!

Which can lead to other activities.

His silly shitty belief is unconstitutional anyway.

[PC2]

Legally you are incorrect. minors cannot decide for themselves. The law has already decided that below a certain age people do not have the capabilities to make informed, reasoned choices about their life. They cannot sign contracts, they cannot consent for sexual activities, they cannot make healthcare decisions, etc.

It is nonsense, and you know full well it is nonsense, to apply the right of voting to a group of people who cannot legally make decisions because they are no capable of doing so.

This whole derailing bit of nonsense is absurd on its face.

A reasoned well intentioned poster would have put forward an argument that people should be able to argue they can vote at a younger age, similar to how minors can emancipate themselves from their parents. That would have been the way to have this argument about voting age in an honest fashion.

Yeah I know that is the legal reality as of right now, but what I'm saying is society can be improved on this topic. There is no bad intention behind universal suffrage and enfranchising everyone. A minor's lived experience and input is just as important to democracy as any other group's input and they should have a voice in a democracy as well.

[Shadowferal]

Yeah I know that is the legal reality as of right now, but what I'm saying is society can be improved on this topic.

But your vile beliefs aren't improvements.
And your shoddy shitty rhetoric has no basis on reality (no surprise) until you can prove it is an improvement. Which we all know you won't.

[cubby]

Since when the hell did voting become a privelege in some's eyes wth? The actual foundation of our country is now a priveledge to republicans? I am constantly reminded of those damned Star Wars prequels because of these morons. In that scene with Natalie Portman...




She must have been attending a Trump/GOP rally lol.

That scene is spot-on when it comes to the GQP vision for Gilead. Along with their full embracing of alt-reality Post Fact Era conspiracy theories, and complete denial of reality and logic, they are embracing a collapse of women's rights AND claiming that voting is no longer a right.

I'm no longer certain Trump won't win in 2024.

[Bakis]

No taxation without representation only worked against the British

[D3thray]

Yeah I know that is the legal reality as of right now, but what I'm saying is society can be improved on this topic. There is no bad intention behind universal suffrage and enfranchising everyone. A minor's lived experience and input is just as important to democracy as any other group's input and they should have a voice in a democracy as well.

If you don’t have a say in your own bedtime, I question your grasp of political topics affecting the entire population. I question a lot of others as well but the key point in your argument is lived experience. Minors have very little of that and the vast majority of the time none about adult responsibilities.

Moreover many adults remember their own ignorance and immature thinking as minors. Minor suffrage is a hard sell on that basis alone.

[Sunseeker]

Yeah, let the toddlers vote! Never mind that they can't remember what just happened 10 minutes ago, everyone should be able to vote! Then the fascists who have been losing support will be able to just fuck their way to more power. Force your little kids to vote for your politicians and laugh as the childless liberals are left trying to explain to ACTUAL fucking toddlers why it's not a great idea to vote for Hitler.

Quite frankly there's no sound argument that 21, 18 or 16 or any other age is the "ideal" age for voting. Sure we can argue "their brains aren't developed" or "they can't pay attention for more than 10 minutes" or whatever, but we don't restrict the voting rights of the mentally handicapped, and we don't restrict the voting rights of the dim or the short-attention-spanned.

What this really comes down to is that there IS a good argument for a voting test. If we want people whose "brains are developed" (what does that even mean? They're capable of complex thought and considering complex issues?), if we want people who can "pay attention", then there should be a test on current issues, history, governance, social dynamics, similar to the test to become a citizen.

Because if any dipshit over the age of 18 is allowed to vote (a number that only exists because we used to be able to command people 18-21 to die for their nation they couldn't even vote in) all we've demonstrated is that we pulled 18 out of a hat. Ted Kennedy's argument is no more limited to 18-year-olds than 16-year olds.

And really, most of them don't vote anyway.