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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Yes, and the writer of that article made the usual mistake of taking the gross box office revenue and writing as if it was pure profit for Disney. Which, as the numbers i showed you, it is not. But who needs math and facts when good-sounding PR is needed?
    No, he did not. The article specifically states that the calculation includes, but is not limited to, the Box Office Revenue. It also accounts for the hundreds of millions of dollars that is spent for marketing and production.

    Again, what you are missing is Merchandise.

    https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2...ndise-revenue/

    According to analyst estimates, a Star Wars movie year is worth $5-$7 billion in merchandising revenue for Disney—and that estimate was made with the 2015 release of the first of the Disney Star Wars films, The Force Awakens.
    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Val the Moofia Boss View Post
    I have to wonder what exactly Star Wars is making most of its money from. It certainly isn't movies or toys, that's for sure. Is it from mobile games? And how many years of microtransactions will it take for Disney to recoup their investment?
    What makes you think Movies and Toys aren't making a ton of money for Star Wars?

  2. #142
    I am Murloc! Lord Pebbleton's Avatar
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    Absolutely yes.

    I think it's a normal defense mechanism that humans have - depreciating the new stuff is a way to keep the old stuff relevant, at least in one's mind. Couple that with the fact that older folk are not exactly willing to learn new stuff, and you get a slew of adult people that absolutely refuse to listen to people under a certain age threshold, and that refuse to learn something new ("I am not good with computers" -> "I never even tried and I won't even if you advise me to").

    I believe that older folk start feeling insecure when their beliefs are questioned. For example, 40 years ago it was perfectly normal to have children all the time, while now more and more people opt out of it. The people that didn't really know you could choose between having or not having kids, and that had them, are the ones that tell you "You will change your mind in the future", because you agreeing with their decisions makes those decisions more valid.

    I have had so many first-hand experiences with this that it has become a problem. I live in a country where, in the past years, it was insane to think you wanted to move abroad. Every time I mention the possibility of moving away (for better opportunities or to make new experiences), I need to select my talkers carefully, because I have had people outright insult me because I wasn't 100% faithful to my country, whatever that means. Those were people that went abroad maybe twice in their life, just for a vacation.

    Another time an old lady told me she wanted to visit a psychologist that would agree with whatever she said. I told her that's not psychology, that's manipulation. She told me she doesn't have to listen to someone this young (I am not a teen...).

    Society is changing rapidly, extremely so, and this kind of behavior, I fear, will become more and more common. For my part, I hope I never become a gatekeeper, I would love to keep an open mind about new stuff until the day I die, and I want to make my decisions because I want to make them, not because "it's always been done this way".

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    No, he did not. The article specifically states that the calculation includes, but is not limited to, the Box Office Revenue. It also accounts for the hundreds of millions of dollars that is spent for marketing and production.

    Again, what you are missing is Merchandise.

    https://www.pymnts.com/news/retail/2...ndise-revenue/



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    What makes you think Movies and Toys aren't making a ton of money for Star Wars?
    Yes, she did. From the article you linked:
    'Disney’s purchase of “Star Wars” production company Lucasfilm is proving to be one of the smartest acquisitions ever made in corporate America.

    The deal, worth $4.05 billion in cash and stock, was announced Oct. 30, 2012 and marked the start of a new era in the Star Wars franchise. Disney would make back that investment and more in just a few short years. The four Star Wars feature films Disney has produced have grossed more than $4.8 billion at the box office, according to comScore.'

    She is, once again, mistaking box office numbers with net earnings for Disney. We have already analyzed and dismissed this badly researched article in 2 other threads.
    And while Disney made money with merch and games, TLJ killed the demand for it. It had gotten so bad that for years now the numbers for SW merch are added together with the Frozen merch to give the impression of good sales.

    Here is a more in-depth report about Hasbro's SW toy numbers up until 2018:
    https://www.jeditemplearchives.com/2...ith-star-wars/

    If you want to know how badly the House of Mouse is hurting:
    https://www.investopedia.com/how-dis...-money-4799164
    Just to highlight: The company's net income fell 99.2% to $18 million in Q1 of its 2021 fiscal year (FY), which ended January 2, 2021. Revenue for the quarter fell 22.2% to $16.2 billion.
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  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Yes, she did. From the article you linked:
    'Disney’s purchase of “Star Wars” production company Lucasfilm is proving to be one of the smartest acquisitions ever made in corporate America.

    The deal, worth $4.05 billion in cash and stock, was announced Oct. 30, 2012 and marked the start of a new era in the Star Wars franchise. Disney would make back that investment and more in just a few short years. The four Star Wars feature films Disney has produced have grossed more than $4.8 billion at the box office, according to comScore.'
    She specifically used the word "grossed" and you're trying to say she was talking about "net".

    She goes on to talk about the costs:

    While box office grosses are a solid measure of a film’s success, they still don’t tell the whole story. There are hundreds of millions of dollars of costs that come into play, along with dozens of other “Star Wars” revenue streams.

    The receipts don’t account for the estimated $200 million to $300 million Disney shelled out per film in production costs or the money spent on its robust marketing campaigns to promote each release.
    And again the article isn't just about Box Office Perfomance:

    Then there’s also the money Disney makes on DVD, BluRay and digital sales, not to mention licensing agreements for the brand and sales of its own Star Wars apparel, toys and novelizations. Ahead of the release of “The Force Awakens” in 2015, Disney’s earnings got a boost from sales of Star Wars merchandise on Force Friday, a September event designed to excite fans of the franchise to purchase newly released goods.
    Merchandise. Lots of money in Merchandise.

    If you want to know how badly the House of Mouse is hurting:
    https://www.investopedia.com/how-dis...-money-4799164
    Just to highlight: The company's net income fell 99.2% to $18 million in Q1 of its 2021 fiscal year (FY), which ended January 2, 2021. Revenue for the quarter fell 22.2% to $16.2 billion.
    Yeah, you may have heard about this little thing called "COVID-19"...it kinda savaged the movie and theme park industries last year. Also, has nothing to do with Disney's aquisition of Star Wars.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-07-31 at 08:48 PM.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    This rampant nostalgia consumer machine is nothing more than the infantilization of adults to further the degradation of society and culture. People who buy into this rubbish are literally manchildren. Yea, it’s time to grow up and move on. But the idea of growing up bothers a frighteningly large amount of people, that I’m not surprised so many adults today unironically watch cartoons
    Those same people also often flock to other fandoms and push for the same childish tropes to be present in every story. A lot of good video games and TV shows are having lasting consequences stripped from their stories due to a growing amount of people being unable to handle anything bad happening.

  6. #146
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    There isn't a gatekeeping problem.

    There is a recycling old franchises into utter fucking trash problems though.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Of the 5 Star Wars films released, only one didn't make back it's costs; Solo. The rest were wildly successful and there really isn't any debate about that; even Rise of Skywalker pulled in North of a billion dollars at the box office.

    If you're expecting me to lie about that, you'll be a long time waiting. I already admitted to overstating regarding the other films, so I don't see where you think you're going with this.
    Oh, so now you limit yourself to only the Star Wars movies as financially successful?
    Shall i take it that even you don't consider BoP successful?
    You already admitted that GB2016 is not, so only 1 franchise of the 3 you claimed 'were financially successful anyway' was.
    How about you just admit that you were wrong, and only 1 was successful?

    @Egomaniac:
    Then why is the headline in her article:
    Disney bought Lucasfilm six years ago today and has already recouped its $4 billion investment

    Which is plain wrong from the numbers i can see.
    The movies, while themselves bringing in a profit, have killed off the demand for merch. In begining, with TFA, numbers went up and all looked well.
    Then came TLJ and shat all over the fans and the old stuff. The toys and merch that sells best is OG stuff, and from those earnings George Lucas still gets his cut (one of the reasons Disney wanted the old characters gone).
    For 2018 Mattel made less then 200 millions in sales, from which only a fraction (usually 10-15%) goes to Disney.

    And yes, Covid has hurt lots of industries, bringing down the amount of money Disney makes with SW even further.

    So, unless you can show concrete numbers that prove me, and the articles i linked, wrong i'll stick to my theory that Disney has not remade their initial investment.

    btt:
    If you do it right than you can attract new fans and please old fans.
    He-Man 2002 being a good example, or Extreme Ghostbusters.
    TMNT had several shows since 1987, and always managed to mix things up without shitting on the old.

    It is not easy, and we, like every generation, have a few that are against any change.
    But it is do-able. You just have to be careful and plan things out accordingly.
    Last edited by segara82; 2021-08-01 at 05:43 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
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  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    This rampant nostalgia consumer machine is nothing more than the infantilization of adults to further the degradation of society and culture. People who buy into this rubbish are literally manchildren. Yea, it’s time to grow up and move on. But the idea of growing up bothers a frighteningly large amount of people, that I’m not surprised so many adults today unironically watch cartoons
    While I can agree it's a huge consumer machine that has way too many people feeding it, The fact that you're posting on a video games general discussion forum with that Profile pic and username that you have is extremely ironic. You're just shifting what is allowed to be enjoy to fit yourself and everything beyond it is childish. You're playing a game where cartoon garden gnomes and cows defeat cosmic gods with the help of their fish and space goat friends, how is that any better then shit like Adventure Time?

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Entertainment companies keep repackaging this stuff more so than there is an active desire for it. Mostly because this stuff never goes away anymore.

    If I wanted to watch All in the Family or Ed Sullivan back in the day, I had to catch a rerun on some affiliate channel or buy a VHS collection for $29.99 on a late-night infomercial.

    But I can bring up like any episode of the Pirates of Dark Water or Bravestar if I wanted in a few seconds. I mean, I don't. A retelling of the classic tale of Silverhawks is what I am clamoring for necessarily. Probably not a lot of other people are either- they just recall it and say, "Oh yea."

    But that's enough for an entertainment company because they just need eyeballs on the product on content. Voluminous, unending content.

    The whole gatekeeping thing is really just a small amount of nerds. To be frank.
    The answer you're looking for would be "yes"

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Those same people also often flock to other fandoms and push for the same childish tropes to be present in every story. A lot of good video games and TV shows are having lasting consequences stripped from their stories due to a growing amount of people being unable to handle anything bad happening.
    The fact that shit like Game of Thrones, American Horror stories, The Boys etc exist is counter to your point. You're blaming people who are playing a game for the "No bad things allowed" when it's just a corporate attempt at mass appeal.

    I mean, It's just beyond reason to think games like God of War, Ghosts of Tsushima, Sekiro are stripped of their uncomfortable visuals or story turns because people can't handle it, I just think people love blaming the SJW boogeyman for a lot of things.

  11. #151
    I tried to go back and watch some of the original cartoons - Transformers, G.I. Joe, He-man, etc. They don't stand the test of time. They were fucking awful, but we were biased because there really wasn't anything else around like it at the time. THAT'S why the nostalgia fury. Much better stories in comics and books, but mUh tOyBoX. We're all guilty of it.

  12. #152
    Warchief Magical Mudcrab's Avatar
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    I think it largely depends on what you mean by "gatekeeping". There's (2) ways in which I've seen gatekeeping happen:
    (1) Is from people who are more ideologically driven and are trying to expel beliefs contrary to their own from a hobby. This could include people who complain about injection of racial politics (or other "woke" issues) into comics, but when people do so this is largely ignorance on their part. Most hobbies that this happens to, ironically, have histories of being used as a medium to push for progress.

    (2) Is more understandable, and it's pushing against unwanted change. This has been happening a bit in the Warhammer 40k community where Games Workshop is trying to appeal to broader audiences and has, in some ways, toned down the grimdark nature of the universe in order to do so. This has led to very negative reactions from most of the community, and is a reasonable problem to have: the hobby you enjoy should not change if there is no reason to change (i.e.: in Wh40k's instance, there is no reason to reduce the grim nature of the setting, and doing so leads to understandable negative reactions).
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  13. #153
    I'm just waiting for a remake of the old GI Joe cartoons (one of my favorites in the 80s) where Destro has a three some with Scarlet and the Baroness, Flint eats Lady Jay's ass, and Duke and Gung Ho give each other the old dutch rudder.
    Bandwagon sports fans can eat a bag of http://www.ddir.com/ .

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grax View Post
    There is a severe problem with people not wanting to put the toys down. I'm slightly older than the OP, and this inability to leave the trappings of childhood behind (and then act like children either defending or criticising) is disturbing. It's [redacted] He-Man. The last time I picked up a He-Man (or any other action figure) was about 1992. I haven't watched the show, and won't because I'm not 11 anymore, but the vitriol coming from both directions is childish. Especially coming from adults.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Does positive review "brigading" happen?
    Considering how many "critic reviews" are in complete lock-step with one another, especially in the gaming industry, it's pretty easy to understand why people have stopped taking them at face value. Especially when they all read pretty similarly too. So I'd say it happens in the sense that it's the same group who like to jerk off mediocre films constantly. See all the films and shows that have negative to mediocre RT audience reviews but are somehow over 90% from critics, while classics and generally beloved older films actually have much lower critic scores. Like Forest Gump is a universally loved movie and it's only got like a 70% RT critic score. So yes, there's definitely a rather large collective of "critics" who are significantly overplaying the quality of shows and movies just like there's too many reactionaries that try to dunk on shows just because without any valid criticism.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Egomaniac View Post
    She specifically used the word "grossed" and you're trying to say she was talking about "net".

    She goes on to talk about the costs:



    And again the article isn't just about Box Office Perfomance:



    Merchandise. Lots of money in Merchandise.



    Yeah, you may have heard about this little thing called "COVID-19"...it kinda savaged the movie and theme park industries last year. Also, has nothing to do with Disney's aquisition of Star Wars.
    There's lots of money in merchandise, assuming people want to buy your stuff. People don't want to buy toys of forgetful characters and uninteresting events. The OG trilogy had so many memorable things about it that were easily made into toys, not to mention all of the books that spawned in the years following, from expanded universe stories to books like those featuring focal points like ships and vehicles in the Star Wars universe (used to have that technical readout book on ships which was cool). Also, it's a significantly different attitude towards toys than it was for us in the 80's and 90's. Kids aren't nearly as interested these days in playing with figurines and toy sets as we were, but I blame that on parenting for allowing their kids to sit in front of the TV or tablet all day instead of create with an active imagination.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    Those same people also often flock to other fandoms and push for the same childish tropes to be present in every story. A lot of good video games and TV shows are having lasting consequences stripped from their stories due to a growing amount of people being unable to handle anything bad happening.
    Remember when kids shows used to have morality lessons like GI Joe and He-man? That's something a lot of kids cartoons are lacking is good messaging. I couldn't fathom being a kid watching the shows kids have to watch these days, inferior animation in cartoons and far too much cringe or unfunny moments.

  15. #155
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    Oh, so now you limit yourself to only the Star Wars movies as financially successful?
    Shall i take it that even you don't consider BoP successful?
    You already admitted that GB2016 is not, so only 1 franchise of the 3 you claimed 'were financially successful anyway' was.
    How about you just admit that you were wrong, and only 1 was successful?
    If we're talking about franchises, then all three are successful, since you have to include the rest of the Snyderverse in with Birds of Prey, and Ghostbusters 1+2 in with GB2016. And I already demonstrated that all but one Star Wars film made bank, and that one was Solo.

    You're moving goalposts to change the debate and trying to blame me for not pre-emptively kicking at the newly moved goalposts. And weirdly enough, the new "franchise" success goalposts you're using are even worse for your case.


  16. #156
    Banned Leotheras the Blind's Avatar
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    It's not gate keeping to expect something to stay coherent or to keep somewhat of a consistency to the series when a new addition comes out. If I tell you that I'm going get you a nice back massage and start kicking you in your soyboy dilapidated balls, then when you cry out saying lied and this isn't a back massage, should I tell you to stop gate keeping? No you dumb shit, it's nothing like what was being told it would be. I'm sorry that you're too fucking dumb to see that.

  17. #157
    The Unstoppable Force Orange Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    What I find weirdest, speaking as a GenX-er who is absolutely in the demographic in question, is why the hell people think a lot of these older shows were good? He-Man and Transformers, in particular, were basically slapped-together, shittily animated commercials, when a change to TV regulations gave toy companies a new opportunity to exploit kids.

    And let me be clear: I fucking loved He-Man and Transformers. I had high hopes for the new Transformers films, before they turned into my complete disillusionment with Michael Bay as a professional, since movies about big alien robots got turned into misogynistic framing, racist bullshit, and bathroom humor.

    Those films are objectively bad. Not because they did one of my favorite cartoons dirty, but because there was so much opportunity to make a shitty toy-commercial-framed-as-entertainment into something actually interesting.

    For He-Man, practically anything it's used for these days has been better than the original cartoon. Still haven't seen Revelations, but I really think people forget how seriously dumb the cartoon was, and how shitty the animation was.

    That's the issue with the "gatekeeping"; they're holding up dreck as the ideal, and often whining that the new stuff actually has nuance and explores complexities the original couldn't or wouldn't ever touch.

    We were like 8 years old, guys. We were idiots. Of course we liked that shit. But I'm willing to bet practically nobody who's bitching about these reboots has actually re-watched those shows since the original runs. Definitely not regularly. The "nostalgia" is that they can't accept that maybe they were a childish idiot for liking the original.

    You can't watch the original He-Man cartoons and tell me they're great. They aren't. They're a cheaply made marketing stunt to push surplus Conan remodels as toys for kids. Hell, go watch the Netflix Toys That Made Us episodes for He-Man and Transformers. It's mostly about the actual toys, but they both talk about the TV shows and how they were important to market the toys.
    Thundercats... I love the shit out of it as a kid. It's garbage..... The new remake was 100x better than the old version.
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    If we're talking about franchises, then all three are successful, since you have to include the rest of the Snyderverse in with Birds of Prey, and Ghostbusters 1+2 in with GB2016. And I already demonstrated that all but one Star Wars film made bank, and that one was Solo.

    You're moving goalposts to change the debate and trying to blame me for not pre-emptively kicking at the newly moved goalposts. And weirdly enough, the new "franchise" success goalposts you're using are even worse for your case.
    I am, and was, talking about the movies, i used the word franchise because in the thread we are talking about franchises being milked for nostalgia. And so many attempts to cash in on old franchises fail.
    But, if it will make you feel better i'll change it in the post to movies.


    Now ... were the movies (SW, GB2016, BOP) that the original post we two argue about 'financially successful anyway' or not?
    Star Wars? Yes. Not as much as some claim but most turned a profit.
    GB2016? No, not even you claim that.
    BoP? Even the director was quoted as disappointed with the box office numbers.
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  19. #159
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by segara82 View Post
    I am, and was, talking about the movies, i used the word franchise because in the thread we are talking about franchises being milked for nostalgia. And so many attempts to cash in on old franchises fail.
    And this base assumption is just incorrect, on its face.

    You've got Star Wars, which has continued to be a wild success.
    The Transformers films, as much as I hate them, made billions.
    The MCU is a nostalgia trip for those of us who grew up with comic books, and it's literally the single most fiscally successful film franchise ever.

    It's easier to pick out the failures. Like, yes, GB2016 and BoP. The latter of which is in a franchise which has, overall, been a financial success, even if critically reviewed. And hell, Birds of Prey barely even qualifies as "nostalgia"; they didn't form as a team in the comics until 1996, so we're not drawing from anything earlier, there.

    I fundamentally disagree with your premise, and you have no backed it up with data.

    But, if it will make you feel better i'll change it in the post to movies.
    You're the one being inconsistent. I'm just asking you to stop moving goalposts when your prior goalposts become inconvenient to defend.


  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post

    There's lots of money in merchandise, assuming people want to buy your stuff. People don't want to buy toys of forgetful characters and uninteresting events. The OG trilogy had so many memorable things about it that were easily made into toys, not to mention all of the books that spawned in the years following, from expanded universe stories to books like those featuring focal points like ships and vehicles in the Star Wars universe (used to have that technical readout book on ships which was cool). Also, it's a significantly different attitude towards toys than it was for us in the 80's and 90's. Kids aren't nearly as interested these days in playing with figurines and toy sets as we were, but I blame that on parenting for allowing their kids to sit in front of the TV or tablet all day instead of create with an active imagination.
    Let's say you're right and people only buy the toys and merch based off the old movies. Disney still gets the money anyway. They own Star Wars. Not just the new Star Wars. All Star Wars.
    Last edited by Egomaniac; 2021-08-01 at 06:29 PM.

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