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  1. #321
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My takeaway with all this is that Elune received Ardenweald's message about the Drought, but was otherwise unaware of the Jailer's machinations concerning the Arbiter and the Maw. She withheld any direct intervention and allowed Teldrassil to play out - knowing that the souls of the Night Elven dead would make their way to her sister's realm and aid in revitalizing it, but unfortunately playing into the Jailer's hands when they were snatched from the stream and sent hurtling into the Jailer's hands. In extension, there's the idea that if the Ardenweald dies then the entire afterlife structure for the Night Elven people follows suit - and so a sacrifice was made of living souls to preserve the greater system, with the hope that there would be eventual renewal in the longer-term scheme of things.

    It's a way of closing the narrative schism of BfA and Teldrassil, although it's an exceedingly bitter pill at the end of the day.
    My only issue with your take is the assumption that Elune had the power to stop Teldrassil from happening in the first place. She has never prevented anything of that scale before.

    And then you have to question whether it's even her place to intervene at all. Personally, I think that's the more interesting narrative direction. Even if Elune is a purely benevolent deity, can mortals really rely on some aloof deity to get them out of every tough spot?

    I feel like this sort of echoes Illidan's perspective in Legion. Mortals need to take fate into their own hands.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemoon View Post
    I think my point would be that Elune can intervene on an individual basis, but not on the scale needed to save Teldrassil.

    According to the lore in Ardenweald her most potent intervention is to create a Night Warrior, which she did for Tyrande but not until after the events had already taken place.
    If you see the dialogue makes it quite clear that she blames herself for what ended up happening that it was her "mistake."
    So in one way to another she gives us to understand that she could have saved souls from the jaws and she did not succeed.

    That's what she blames for her.

    PS: The comment of the tree stopped having value in Tasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    My only issue with your take is the assumption that Elune had the power to stop Teldrassil from happening in the first place. She has never prevented anything of that scale before.

    And then you have to question whether it's even her place to intervene at all. Personally, I think that's the more interesting narrative direction. Even if Elune is a purely benevolent deity, can mortals really rely on some aloof deity to get them out of every tough spot?

    I feel like this sort of echoes Illidan's perspective in Legion. Mortals need to take fate into their own hands.
    She saved Tyrande and Malfurion's Ass several times.
    Sending Maiev a message or giving the tree some more strength was not a great achievement.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-27 at 10:19 PM.

  3. #323
    The only way for gods to prevent stuff like Teldrassil or the War of the Ancients or anything on that scale (or smaller) from happening is to simply make all inhabitants of 'reality' into mindless drones and make them keep the peace. No more grudges, no more greed, no more will to power... basically what Xe'ra wanted, but all of them have to do it. And even that would not prevent everything, because then you'd have all the 'dark gods' doing the same thing and everybody can make their drones fight for reality. It wouldn't matter as much, because then everyone would be merely a tool anyway and no one would be able to feel anything about people dying.

    No thanks, I like my gods a little more hands-off.^^

  4. #324
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    Hey Algalon, did the Titans ever mention a universal Re-Origination device that they were keeping out of Sargeras' hands by any chance?
    Sargeras left the Pantheon earlier then he figured out about Constellars existence and anhillated one of them. I'm not sure if it was Harbaron or the other one, but it's clear that he has been watching over a Titan and that he ended up in the Maw. I think Sargeras may have been manipulated by Dreadlords and feared the void so much so that he did this. Dreadlords worked for the Jailer that is obvious. We need time travel to fix this, friend. Since the planet wasn't reset as intended. Algalon sends his regards.
    Last edited by Cloudmaker; 2021-07-27 at 10:26 PM.
    #SaveAlgalon

  5. #325
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    My only issue with your take is the assumption that Elune had the power to stop Teldrassil from happening in the first place. She has never prevented anything of that scale before.

    And then you have to question whether it's even her place to intervene at all. Personally, I think that's the more interesting narrative direction. Even if Elune is a purely benevolent deity, can mortals really rely on some aloof deity to get them out of every tough spot?

    I feel like this sort of echoes Illidan's perspective in Legion. Mortals need to take fate into their own hands.
    Completely stop it? Perhaps not. Mitigate and/or lessen it, I would say that's certainly within her portfolio. There's no real issue with it being "her place," as it were; her followers among the Night Elves were certainly clambering for it, so she had sanction from them to intercede if she was able. It's for any given mortal to decide their own degree of independence from greater powers in a given fictional universe, I would say - personally speaking, I tend not to rely on what I cannot see or sense, but a priest or priestess might have a different take in a fictional context where such powers actually hold sway.

    Illidan has his own biases, as befits his experiences.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    The only way for gods to prevent stuff like Teldrassil or the War of the Ancients or anything on that scale (or smaller) from happening is to simply make all inhabitants of 'reality' into mindless drones and make them keep the peace. No more grudges, no more greed, no more will to power... basically what Xe'ra wanted, but all of them have to do it. And even that would not prevent everything, because then you'd have all the 'dark gods' doing the same thing and everybody can make their drones fight for reality. It wouldn't matter as much, because then everyone would be merely a tool anyway and no one would be able to feel anything about people dying.

    No thanks, I like my gods a little more hands-off.^^
    I put it another way.
    Brozwandi actively hired to defend the troll capital and the Loas also assisted in the previous fight.

    Why we don't see similar actions from Elune. It's not that he "snaps his fingers and saves everyone" just that he fights too. But why do we fight for her later?

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    My only issue with your take is the assumption that Elune had the power to stop Teldrassil from happening in the first place. She has never prevented anything of that scale before.

    And then you have to question whether it's even her place to intervene at all. Personally, I think that's the more interesting narrative direction. Even if Elune is a purely benevolent deity, can mortals really rely on some aloof deity to get them out of every tough spot?

    I feel like this sort of echoes Illidan's perspective in Legion. Mortals need to take fate into their own hands.
    Her people were never on the verge of getting genocided.
    Also it's not because she never did it that she can't do it now. Needs a first time for everything.
    However the worse part of this cinematic is that it's implied that Elune let it happen.

  8. #328
    Legendary! Dellis0991's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenmoon View Post
    This shit is so far off from the original night elves presented in WC3 and the War of the Anceints tirlogy that explains their origin and the full picture of the race as well as explaining thatWC3 manual entry in detail.


    I'm so done with this.
    I feel for you.

  9. #329
    Elemental Lord Kathranis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eurojust View Post
    Her people were never on the verge of getting genocided.
    War of the Ancients? War of the Satyrs? The Third War?

    This was far from the first massacre of night elves. The ocean is littered with Kaldorei ruins. It's not even the first time their tree-home has been destroyed. Teldrassil was a pale imitation of Nordrassil, and it's nothing compared to Suramar before the Sundering.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    Linking this in the clearly more popular thread.



    Elune is more than likely a Life god and that's why she knew about the drought/not the specifics.
    Yeah, this all makes it very obvious that she's in the Pantheon of Life. Which makes sense, given that Light never meshed with her powers or aesthetic.

    It ties into the Broker's guess that she might be involved in the shaping of night elf souls into wisps, tethering them to the magical forests of Azeroth rather than sending them to the Shadowlands.

    Also makes sense with her deep connection to the Wild Gods and Ysera. And her allowing for the rebirth of souls in Ardenweald -- at least the souls that are imbued with her power, or which have a deep connection to nature.

    Hopefully this means that the're a possibility those slain by Sylvanas will be given the chance of rebirth as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by voidox View Post
    what is not fine is the vengeance or renewal line, cause that right there is 100% confirmation that the night elves are NOT going to get any sort of justice or revenge for a GENOCIDE. The horde are going to walk scot-free from being part of a genocide
    Justice and revenge are not the same. I've said this many times, but my hope is that Sylvanas faces the consequences of her actions. Ideally her convictions are strong enough that she will accept the consequences.

    But that doesn't mean that Tyrande needs to lower herself deliver a killing blow, which won't bring satisfaction. My preferred ending would be for Tyrande to simply leave Sylvanas to her fate, neither saving nor condemning her.

    And if this leads to a crisis of faith for her, that would be an actually interesting story to tell. Not sure if Blizzard are equipped to tell that kind of story, but eh.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    War of the Ancients? War of the Satyrs? The Third War?

    This was far from the first massacre of night elves. The ocean is littered with Kaldorei ruins. It's not even the first time their tree-home has been destroyed. Teldrassil was a pale imitation of Nordrassil, and it's nothing compared to Suramar before the Sundering.
    According to the writers, none of those times was compared to this one.
    Sira happened all that and it did not break and here it broke.
    Before there was no need to use the Night warrior.

    So Blizzard putting more clubs in the wheel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    Justice and revenge are not the same. I've said this many times, but my hope is that Sylvanas faces the consequences of her actions. Ideally her convictions are strong enough that she will accept the consequences.
    Elune is not letting him choose "Justice". Revenge is the most similar option.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-27 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    War of the Ancients? War of the Satyrs? The Third War?

    This was far from the first massacre of night elves. The ocean is littered with Kaldorei ruins. It's not even the first time their tree-home has been destroyed. Teldrassil was a pale imitation of Nordrassil, and it's nothing compared to Suramar before the Sundering.

    Genocide =/= massacre
    All of these wars were fought and won by the Night Elves. Teldrassil was the first time when they were completely defeated.
    Nobody lived in Nordrassil btw.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I put it another way.
    Brozwandi actively hired to defend the troll capital and the Loas also assisted in the previous fight.

    Why we don't see similar actions from Elune. It's not that he "snaps his fingers and saves everyone" just that he fights too. But why do we fight for her later?
    She has an army on the ground, it's called 'Nightelves'. All the forest rose up (including the ancients) to help and the Wisps, plus the Worgen (and the Alliance heroes). She also prevented Saurfang from killing Malfurion, who is actually her biggest weapon in that fight. It should have been enough, the wisps alone should have turned the tide (as they did against Archimonde at Nordrassil) but Sylvanas had an ace up her sleeve no one knew about, not even Elune, as we now know. All of it wasn't enough, just like Bwonsamdi's help wasn't enough in Zandalar.
    And later Elune intervened to give the Nightelves a peaceful death, which is akin to what Bwonsamdi did for Rastakhan, just that Bwonsamdi knew more about what was happening and actually stopped Rastakhan's soul from crossing over (and only Rastakhan's soul).

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    She has an army on the ground, it's called 'Nightelves'. All the forest rose up (including the ancients) to help and the Wisps, plus the Worgen (and the Alliance heroes). She also prevented Saurfang from killing Malfurion, who is actually her biggest weapon in that fight. It should have been enough, the wisps alone should have turned the tide (as they did against Archimonde at Nordrassil) but Sylvanas had an ace up her sleeve no one knew about, not even Elune, as we now know. All of it wasn't enough, just like Bwonsamdi's help wasn't enough in Zandalar.
    And later Elune intervened to give the Nightelves a peaceful death, which is akin to what Bwonsamdi did for Rastakhan, just that Bwonsamdi knew more about what was happening and actually stopped Rastakhan's soul from crossing over (and only Rastakhan's soul).
    I mean, Elune does nothing but die a peaceful death.
    The Elders and Wisp are Elune's own non-Slave entities.

    When Browsbandi fights he takes his troops. In Elune's case, does she bring the troops that were already there?

    PS The Worgens weren't in the first fight.

    --EDIT--
    You even have the dark waterfront to see the difference between when Elune fights and when she doesn't.
    Last edited by geco; 2021-07-27 at 10:41 PM.

  14. #334
    So, let me get this straight:

    Elune intended to send the nelf souls to Ardenweald, but they went to the Maw instead, which was apparently entirely out of her hands.

    This then means one of two things:

    1. Elune directly had a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil, which is fucked up beyond measure.
    2. Elune didn't have a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil and instead did absolutely nothing (since she wasn't even able to keep all the nelf souls out of the Maw), which is still fucked up beyond measure.

    Fuck Elune and fuck the writing team.


  15. #335
    I am Murloc! Selastan's Avatar
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    "That's right! Twas I that set the tree ablaze!"

    Guess we know how Sylvanas' catapults burned down an entire magical tree the size of a mountain on an island miles from the coast. Divine intervention.

  16. #336
    Bloodsail Admiral Cloudmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    So, let me get this straight:

    Elune intended to send the nelf souls to Ardenweald, but they went to the Maw instead, which was apparently entirely out of her hands.

    This then means one of two things:

    1. Elune directly had a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil, which is fucked up beyond measure.
    2. Elune didn't have a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil and instead did absolutely nothing (since she wasn't even able to keep all the nelf souls out of the Maw), which is still fucked up beyond measure.

    Fuck Elune and fuck the writing team.
    You have to understand that there is bigger shit going on there. It’s a cosmic war and there are enormous casualties. They are doing what they can.
    #SaveAlgalon

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    None of the higher power entities in the Warcraft pantheon are omniscient or omnipotent - powerful, yes, but they're all necessary bounded in a variety of ways. Elune may be one of the most powerful but she's still got limits, as this sad interlude is at pains to show us.
    - Reader/player is omniscient or at least is allowed to assume they are
    - game character for most readers/players is a self-insert
    - regardless of whatever character is called (adventurer/hero/champion/wanderer), players typically assume powers that are stronger than character (especially those several leagues stronger) are omniscient
    - why? Because the player is omniscient

    So when something happens suddenly (aka pretty much sylvanas’ actions in bfa and SL) the omniscient reader gets upset because they have been pandered to know everything. Doesn’t matter if story change is good or bad.

    And if a high power doesn’t operate in an omniscient fashion the player/reader gets upset as well because the hierarchy of information is wrong. And if it is wrong then either the writers are hacks (jury is still deliberating on this) and/or we have to believe the warcraft universe operates in a way in which all player characters are silent, willingly, helpless variants of Deadpool.

    As others have said lore is ok, story telling is garbo.

    Also several people in the WoW community need English lessons.

  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Cloudmaker View Post
    You have to understand that there is bigger shit going on there. It’s a cosmic war and there are enormous casualties. They are doing what they can.
    I highly doubt Elune somehow has her hands too full to deal with the night elves considering the ones who saved Azeroth from:

    • The Scourge
    • The Legion
    • The Old Gods
    • Death itself

    Were the HEROES doing their thing completely independent of other cosmic forces / entities. Elune hasn't done shit for anyone by comparison


  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirdus View Post
    So, let me get this straight:

    Elune intended to send the nelf souls to Ardenweald, but they went to the Maw instead, which was apparently entirely out of her hands.

    This then means one of two things:

    1. Elune directly had a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil, which is fucked up beyond measure.
    2. Elune didn't have a hand in the Burning of Teldrassil and instead did absolutely nothing (since she wasn't even able to keep all the nelf souls out of the Maw), which is still fucked up beyond measure.

    Fuck Elune and fuck the writing team.
    Elune has never been that hands-on when it comes to fighting wars. At no point in the War of the Ancients, War of the Shifting Sands, First, Second or Third Wars against the Legion, War of the Shifting Sands Redux, Undead Invasion (Part 1,) Undead Invasion (Part 2 - Now With Extra Arthas,) Alliance-Horde War (Panda Edition,) Fourth War against the Legion, the stabbing of the planet or the Alliance-Horde War (Boat Editions) did Elune show up and start smiting fools with her omnipotent pew-pew.

  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    I put it another way.
    Brozwandi actively hired to defend the troll capital and the Loas also assisted in the previous fight.

    Why we don't see similar actions from Elune. It's not that he "snaps his fingers and saves everyone" just that he fights too. But why do we fight for her later?
    To be fair, Bwonsamdi was offered a very generous deal by Rastakhan before he intervened, and even then he had to be almost strong-armed into giving Rastakhan a power boost twice, first against Zul and a second time against the Alliance where he eventually abandoned the king altogether. The only Loa also intervened at least in part because Zul's followers attacked them directly, and the Loa in general are actually present on Azeroth, as specifically Azerothian deities. Elune is now basically confirmed to be a cosmic force, part of the global pantheon of Life. She's not sitting around on Azeroth and can't intervene as fast or decisively.

    None of which really excuses the depths of her impotence here. She doesn't have to be present to at least try and prevent the burning by other means, or mitigate it more than by just making some deaths painless. She could have tried and informed herself about the source of the Anima drought before fed-ex shipping all the souls to Ardenweald. And most damning of all, her "choice" to Tyrande between revenge and renewal rings completely hollow as Elune already denied her said revenge by pulling the plug on the Night Warrior power mid-fight against Sylvanas and making said Night Warrior power a death sentence in the first place.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

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