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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    No, the reader/player is privy to character's thoughts and 3rd party observations for which no other observers may be present, but that's not omniscience. An easy test of your omniscience is if you know how the story is going to play out down to the most specific of details - if that answer isn't an unambiguous "yes," then you're not all-knowing either.

    I think people are more upset by characters acting far beyond their prior characterizations than they are any entitlement feeling stemming from "pandering" or thinking they're somehow omniscient. A story not pandering to you is pretty much whatever - I don't personally expect a story to pander to me, but YMMV I suppose. I am more concerned when characters I know, and whose behavior I should be able to predict to some degree, instead make decisions or perform actions that are either deeply illogical or inconsistent (especially if said behavior is solely to serve a given plot).

    The lore is also part and parcel of the storytelling, not some separate entity that exists beyond or outside of it. If the storytelling is garbage, then the lore suffers as well. Not sure how to address your "English lessons" comment but I'd advise against going down that road any further.
    I guess my question to you then is whether you think anyone in this cutscene is acting out of character... Tyrande will be the point of contention, but I do believe her choosing Ardenweald over Sylvanas is more in line with her original character (see: before BFA).

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Kathranis View Post
    If they didn't have a crisis of faith in the last 10,000 years I don't know why they would now. Elune isn't any less reliable than she was before.
    During all this time they served Elune not the other way around and now that it is her turn to do her "job" this happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I guess my question to you then is whether you think anyone in this cutscene is acting out of character... Tyrande will be the point of contention, but I do believe her choosing Ardenweald over Sylvanas is more in line with her original character (see: before BFA).
    The choice is out of place.
    Tyrande could lose all of his powers to save the forest and then continue to seek Justice.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    The choice is out of place.
    Tyrande could lose all of his powers to save the forest and then continue to seek Justice.
    That is more or less what she says after the cinematic. Whether or not that should've been included in the cinematic itself is another story.

    A lot can be said about the audience that only really pays attention to the cinematics. If you only watch them you get a very different tale, but it's what Blizz is marketing, so who is to blame?

  4. #364
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I guess my question to you then is whether you think anyone in this cutscene is acting out of character... Tyrande will be the point of contention, but I do believe her choosing Ardenweald over Sylvanas is more in line with her original character (see: before BFA).
    Not really, no. Tyrande seems to be in some kind of communion with Elune, so she knows what is at stake and a bit more of the "why" as concerns the events of Teldrassil. Tyrande became the Night Warrior because she didn't understand what happened, and with anger and rage sought Elune's power to avenge her people as they were (insofar as she knew then) beyond her ability to immediately restore. Ardenweald is a path to their restoration, though; a place where they can be reborn and possibly return to Azeroth in some capacity. I think she understands that and lets go of the power of the Night Warrior in keeping with her beliefs. That's not to say she has or even should forgive Sylvanas specifically, and I'm sure she hasn't.

    My primary complaint with the cinematic more stems from the initial issues with BfA and the burning of Teldrassil itself. The flawed premise of BfA brings down both the Night Warrior arc and the resulting Ardenweald arc, but there's really nothing to be done for that now. As a bottle-story it's fine, I guess; I would say it's probably C-tier relative to WoW's story overall.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." - Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My primary complaint with the cinematic more stems from the initial issues with BfA and the burning of Teldrassil itself. The flawed premise of BfA brings down both the Night Warrior arc and the resulting Ardenweald arc, but there's really nothing to be done for that now. As a bottle-story it's fine, I guess; I would say it's probably C-tier relative to WoW's story overall.
    I think a huge problem with the Teldrassil story is that Blizzard refuses to comment on the future of Night Elves because of "hype culture" or spoilers or whatever. If they said "lol we're making a cool new HD city for them no worries" then a lot of anger and frustration would be alleviated... but they can't. For whatever reason.

    This story makes a LOT more sense under the lens of them wanting to kind of reboot Nelves and also make them a new city. But nobody can confirm that because a new city/revamp isn't confirmed and won't be confirmed because of the reliance on reveal culture. And also the crazy idea that they want to make a story that takes 6+ years to have a satisfying resolution.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    That is more or less what she says after the cinematic. Whether or not that should've been included in the cinematic itself is another story.

    A lot can be said about the audience that only really pays attention to the cinematics. If you only watch them you get a very different tale, but it's what Blizz is marketing, so who is to blame?
    The Spoilers seemed to say otherwise. That he reaffirmed that he was going to seek only Rebuild. Or at least revenge was no longer important.
    But if they changed something, I'm going to have to look for that dialogue ... although I'm not going to lie to you, it's not that with this I really want to look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nagawithlegs View Post
    I think a huge problem with the Teldrassil story is that Blizzard refuses to comment on the future of Night Elves because of "hype culture" or spoilers or whatever. If they said "lol we're making a cool new HD city for them no worries" then a lot of anger and frustration would be alleviated... but they can't. For whatever reason.

    This story makes a LOT more sense under the lens of them wanting to kind of reboot Nelves and also make them a new city. But nobody can confirm that because a new city/revamp isn't confirmed and won't be confirmed because of the reliance on reveal culture.
    They can't why they aren't doing it

  7. #367
    ahahahaha so elune let all the night elves die, just so they could sustain her sister?

    bwahahaha its so great. literally every cosmic faction is a bunch of assholes at this point

    disorder - obvious
    void - obvious
    light - dictators who want everyone to act how they want (xe'ra, AU draenei)
    order - dictators who want everyone to act how they want (titans nuking entire planets that didnt go according to their plan, etc)
    death - sees everyone as basically a resource
    life - sees everyone as basically a resource

    also, elune gave tyrande power to avenge the night elves AFTER SHE LET THEM DIE, then takes her power away again at the last second so she cant avenge them, and now still says tyrande must chose if she wants vengeance or not?! lmao

    trust in blizz writers to always find a way to somehow make it suck more than imaginable
    Last edited by Houle; 2021-07-28 at 01:31 AM.
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  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    So this is how Steven is going to spin his waifu burning teldrassil into doing nothing wrong?

    Jesus christ what a shitshow.
    Elune didn't cause it. The Burning was done by Sylvanas, but Elune decided to not help those souls since they would fuel Ardenweald. Instead, it made Zovaal more powerful.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Elune didn't cause it. The Burning was done by Sylvanas, but Elune decided to not help those souls since they would fuel Ardenweald. Instead, it made Zovaal more powerful.
    Sounds like this is setting up Elune acting directly to stop Zovaal. Zovaal vs Elune 9.2. 9.3 can be finding and destroying all of Arthas' horcruxes.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by TheFirstOnes View Post
    Elune didn't cause it. The Burning was done by Sylvanas, but Elune decided to not help those souls since they would fuel Ardenweald. Instead, it made Zovaal more powerful.
    Elune decided to help those souls and Ardenweald at the same time, so they could have a peaceful afterlife and maybe even be healed from their trauma. She did not know about souls being sent to the Maw. Elune never directly intervened to stop people from being stupid, even if that meant half the world would get ripped apart and tenthousands of lives would be lost.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by formerShandalay View Post
    Elune decided to help those souls and Ardenweald at the same time, so they could have a peaceful afterlife and maybe even be healed from their trauma. She did not know about souls being sent to the Maw. Elune never directly intervened to stop people from being stupid, even if that meant half the world would get ripped apart and tenthousands of lives would be lost.
    What is the purpose of a god of not to intervene in the mortal life of their worshippers? Especially if they have little/no say in what afterlife they go to?

  12. #372
    Elune wouldn't even have to save everyone in Teldrassil, nor did Elune have to peer into shadowlands to figure out why there is a drought. Elune should have been well aware on Kalimdor that the Horde weren't going to Silithus, they were marching on Ashenvale. None of the wild critters/spirits could have dropped a hint? Severe lack of intel in the Kaldorei military, but they're written that way, my condolences Nelf fans.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    What is the purpose of a god of not to intervene in the mortal life of their worshippers? Especially if they have little/no say in what afterlife they go to?
    That is the question I want all Kaldorei to ask themselves as soon as Elune leaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goremonger View Post
    Elune wouldn't even have to save everyone in Teldrassil, nor did Elune have to peer into shadowlands to figure out why there is a drought. Elune should have been well aware on Kalimdor that the Horde weren't going to Silithus, they were marching on Ashenvale. None of the wild critters/spirits could have dropped a hint? Severe lack of intel in the Kaldorei military, but they're written that way, my condolences Nelf fans.
    Exactly this is the point. Just one vision of Tyrande or Maiev and they were all saved.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Spiral View Post
    What is the purpose of a god of not to intervene in the mortal life of their worshippers? Especially if they have little/no say in what afterlife they go to?
    In their lives she does intervene. She gives them moonwells, healing, holy barriers, wisps, trees of life, she (probably together with other gods and godesses) provides a world where mortals can live and thrive and .... and this is the real important thing... do what they want. She heals the world's wounds after they fucked it up and makes sure the mortals still have a world to live in they can then fuck up again. She provides the possibility for other guardians of the world to regenerate in death and then come back, so they can take care of the world that the mortals fuck up too. She grants a peaceful death instead of an agonizing one and sometimes, when someone really, earnestly wishes it and is ready to die for it, she even grants healing from a deadly disease or changes a person from Satyr back to Nightelf.
    If a person chooses to not obey her and follow her guidance, she doesn't punish them or make their bad decisions go away. All she does is ensure that the world can keep existing.
    And, in this case, she even gives them the best afterlife she can give, away from the horrors of war, not as wisps, but as healing souls in Ardenweald. Ok, this doesn't happen, because Jailer and Maw, but death is not her domain and she maybe relied on her sister to actually keep the freaking Shadowlands safe. Her sister and the other guys, who did nothing but ignore every problem that came up.

  15. #375
    The Patient vondevon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    More and more i am awaiting the day for a radical "atheist" (for the lack of a better word) movement, whose sole goal is to eradicate the influence of any "divine forces" from Azeroth.
    This is basically why Sylvanas chose to serve the Jailor. He convinced her that he too was bound by the creators' flawed design and that with enough power he could tear down the whole system. Instead, he duped her and decided that instead of unmaking the creators' design (with 6 powers all fighting over Azeroth), he would remake the universe such that all would serve him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geco View Post
    That is the question I want all Kaldorei to ask themselves as soon as Elune leaves.
    Elune, like every other Eternal, would have been assigned a glorious purpose by the Creators. That purpose is as the counterpart to her sister, the Winter Queen. Elune and the Winter Queen act as a circle (Azeroth > Ardenweald > Emerald Dream> Azeroth).

    When Elune intervenes in the lives of mortals in a way that prolongs their life or allows them to carry out great deeds, she is only affording them an opportunity to accumulate more anima before their eventual death and transition to Ardenweald. Elune participates in the farming of Azeroth's souls just like every other Eternal. There are no 'good guys' or 'benevolent beings' in the cosmic order. They all suck because they all serve an impersonal purpose imposed by the Creators.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by vondevon View Post
    Elune, like every other Eternal, would have been assigned a glorious purpose by the Creators. That purpose is as the counterpart to her sister, the Winter Queen. Elune and the Winter Queen act as a circle (Azeroth > Ardenweald > Emerald Dream> Azeroth).

    When Elune intervenes in the lives of mortals in a way that prolongs their life or allows them to carry out great deeds, she is only affording them an opportunity to accumulate more anima before their eventual death and transition to Ardenweald. Elune participates in the farming of Azeroth's souls just like every other Eternal. There are no 'good guys' or 'benevolent beings' in the cosmic order. They all suck because they all serve an impersonal purpose imposed by the Creators.
    Perfect. Let that be the description that the Kaldorei of Elune now have.
    Plus a don't trust her.

  17. #377
    Scarab Lord Oneirophobia's Avatar
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    Why would Elune care if the night elves died if she specifically sent them to the rebirth realm? They're just gunna come back. Death doesn't mean anything for them. Elune is specifically upset because the souls she intended to just have returned to life by Ardenweald ended up in the Maw where that won't happen for them.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Oneirophobia View Post
    Why would Elune care if the night elves died if she specifically sent them to the rebirth realm? They're just gunna come back. Death doesn't mean anything for them. Elune is specifically upset because the souls she intended to just have returned to life by Ardenweald ended up in the Maw where that won't happen for them.
    And she still didn't really want them to die. She just rerouted them afterwards. People are getting all up in arms over a story they didn't even bother reading fully.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by HeraldofSargeras View Post
    So.... she let people die in Teldrassil? What was she even thinking?
    She's the "life" counterpart to the Winter Queen(also pretty much cements she's not a "first one" but rather the same as the Cov leaders) and as such she knew they'd be reborn eventually and from what it seems that means both in Ardenweald and seemingly to the mortal plane again as they seem to keep bringing up the great cycle, which judging by the 2nd version of the cosmology chart would imply that there is a back and forth possibly even beyond the loa and such.

    Also in her defense, even the leaders of the SL except Denathrius had no idea that the souls were going to the Maw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    And she still didn't really want them to die. She just rerouted them afterwards. People are getting all up in arms over a story they didn't even bother reading fully.
    I think you're the one not reading it fully. She didn't reroute anything. Her control was only on our plane. For the most part the people in Teldrassil were more than likely already heading to Ardenweald. She did in fact let them die and meant for them to do so as that was her only means of helping her sister.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vondevon View Post
    This is basically why Sylvanas chose to serve the Jailor. He convinced her that he too was bound by the creators' flawed design and that with enough power he could tear down the whole system. Instead, he duped her and decided that instead of unmaking the creators' design (with 6 powers all fighting over Azeroth), he would remake the universe such that all would serve him.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Elune, like every other Eternal, would have been assigned a glorious purpose by the Creators. That purpose is as the counterpart to her sister, the Winter Queen. Elune and the Winter Queen act as a circle (Azeroth > Ardenweald > Emerald Dream> Azeroth).

    When Elune intervenes in the lives of mortals in a way that prolongs their life or allows them to carry out great deeds, she is only affording them an opportunity to accumulate more anima before their eventual death and transition to Ardenweald. Elune participates in the farming of Azeroth's souls just like every other Eternal. There are no 'good guys' or 'benevolent beings' in the cosmic order. They all suck because they all serve an impersonal purpose imposed by the Creators.
    Idk why people keep insisting that the Jailer planned that all along. It's pretty common in many stories for someone to push further than they originally intended once they've reached their goal and essentially take vengeance. I mean hell look at Loki and the last episode and Sylvie is exactly like the Jailer in terms of reaching one's goal and deciding to take it way too far.

  20. #380


    Whether or not anyone has doubts that it is Elune's fault that the Kaldorei souls are in the jaws?
    Well here Elune herself says it.

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